How common is this?

[Redtroop]

Just an open question....

 

My stepson went to Chattham today and played at Fort Amhurst, he mentioned in passing that a lot of players were cronoing their AEG's on flat batteries to pass the 328fps limit, then running fully charged batteries and much hotter guns in game?

 

How common is this in UK sites?

 

Redtroop

[Azubi]

I've never seen it done myself and if I did I would definately see about them getting it chrono'd midgame by a marshal.

[Weirdguy]

Battery voltage does not affect FPS, so there really would be no point. Unless it was a RPS limit.

[Lewis_Hodgson]

A flat battery shouldn't change the fps of an air soft rifle, as the power is gained from a piston with a spring behind it. A flat battery would only lengthen the time it took for the spring to compress - giving a lower rof.

 

Anyone using this to bypass chrono's is failing at life.

 

EDIT: Weirdguy got there first!

[loki7491]

why would anybody want to cheat a chrono anyway?

 

it tells me that they have no idea about the game we play.

 

if you cant beat the man within the rules, you had better just accept the fact that he is better than you!

 

 

[RSM]

If I was on another forum I would ask you if this was a "Wah?"

 

However given your post I'm assuming you are posting this out of concern of your stepson getting shot at with overly hot guns.

 

Generally speaking, the battery has no effect on the FPS of a gun. The piston may get cranked back slower but its rate of acceleration forwards under spring power remains relatively constant as none of the battery powered parts have an influence on the spring. If there is any difference then it is at most going to be 5fps and that isn't going to have any dramatic effect on the level of discomfort felt when you are hit.

 

What is more likely done to pass chrono tests is people not declaring their BB weight or not being made to chrono with a .2g BB. A .25 can make an FPS result show 40fps lower than it actually is. Similarly other tricks are people over hopping their rifles (thereby increasing the friction imparted on the BB, slowing it down more). However the tell tale sign there is the BBs attempting to shoot down 747s once they are 10m downrange which a marshal should be watching for.

 

That said, neither of these I have seen at the 3 sites I normally go to (Ran by the same people though) and we run a 350fps limit so keeping a close eye on the chrono is very important to the site staff.

[GuzziHero]

If anything I would think it would reduce FPS as any minor throwback of the piston you MIGHT get after it runs out of gear teeth would be reduced... therefore the piston wouldnt go forwards as far?

[RSM]

Yeah, like I said the difference between a fully charged gun and one running on a flat one is probably at best going to be only a few FPS more in the charged gun than the near flat one...so the idea of using a dead battery to cheat a chrono is a bit silly really considering that few sites I know are that picky on FPS when it is woodland.

[GuzziHero]

Ah...sorry. Got my wires crossed

[xerxes]

why would anybody want to cheat a chrono anyway?...

 

I've no idea, but I see it far too often at far too many sites and nothing gets done about it, even when it's reported. I don't frequent said sites any more, and I actively steer people away from them, unfortunately skirmishers' options are somewhat limited up this way so the ropey sites still seem to get good turn out. *sigh*

 

Oh, for a couple of thousand quid and a friendly landowner...

[GuzziHero]

My best one was running round after a site owner all day for a chrono test on a gun I had upgraded and was unsure of the power level of...only to be told "Oh just use it".

 

Same site where a regular player with a Thompson consistently outranged my stock P90...and when queried he said it was doing 370fps (this was when they had a 328fps strict limit for visitors). I went 'huh?' and was told that site team members were allowed more because they were 'more trustworthy'.

[xerxes]

...was told that site team members were allowed more because they were 'more trustworthy'.

 

Aye, seems to be a popular one. And that's another thing that seems to go amiss quite frequently, safety briefs... *rolleyes*

 

I wish insurers would pitch up randomly at sites to make sure they are being run properly; maybe do a few chronos themselves.

[Redtroop]

Thanks for your replies guys, I can assure you I'm not trolling...

 

Hopefully my own credentials are well known in the forums but sadly I don't skirmish at all (Never sufficient time these days?)

 

He (my stepson) took his hits as he should, and chose to disregard the advice of keeping his jacket on thus adding a little padding!

It's only the second time he's been on an organised site so maybe there's lots to learn.

 

Mind you his *albartroth* is apparently covered in small bb strikes (????)

 

Another comment was the number of players poaking AEG's around corners and blind spraying everything in sight! Oh well so much for tactics! over firepower!

 

RT

 

[askeytheman]

Blind firing isn't just a misuse of tactics.

 

It's misuse of brain.

 

Stupidity is what it is, if i were you Redtroop, i'd go down with the stepson and see whats going on, then complain - if they don't change i wouldn't send him or yourself there again. It's just not cricket.

[Capt Barsteward]

what kind of filth is this? i hav`nt seen this happen or heard it till today, but why?

thats as low as non hit taking, just because they are wuss`s who have to have that little bit extra range because they are to scared of being shot?!!!?

non hit taking is bad enough but stuff like what you said reallys drains the sport.

 

 

 

[Redtroop]

Not having attended I can only report on his comments, he remarked about being shot in the face and hand by a player blind firing round a doorway into a room he and some others were occupying (Which he also added was full of smoke anyway so maybe everyone was blind firing??) I hasten to add he's over 16 and was wearing eye protection.

 

Please take this as an open discussion rather than criticism of a particular player or site. Like I said its a long time since I've played....

RT

[MDK_Marshal]

Sounds like it SHOULD be a criticism of the site, to be perfectly honest.

 

I mean, Blind firing is banned at EVERY site in the UK because it's really, really unsafe. I know at my local site that if a marshal or regular player saw you doing that, you'd get an earfull, at the very least.

 

If a site's consistently letting people get away with blind firing at close range and running around with severely hot guns, then I'd just steer completely clear of it, and let others know how badly it's being run.

 

Might incur a bit of wrath from the site owners, but hey, that's life. I'd rather be safe and not be allowed back to an unsafe site, personally.

 

Oh, and in response to guzzi's post, I'm pretty sure that a 370fps AEG is EXTREMELY illegal in the UK... due to it being made to fire full auto and with an fps of over 360fps (on 0.2's), it's classified as a section 5 firearm. And, for those that don't know, that's the same as a REAL AK/M4/whatever in the eyes of the law.

[quinch]

For me the only scope to allow greater FPS for “known/trustworthy” players is with Bolt-Action Sniper rifles…ONLY with them. To know and stick to a 20m minimum engagement takes experience and hence most players with bolt-actions firing at the high end tend to be both well known by their sites and trustworthy.

 

There is NO leeway for me in this and there should NEVER be one rule for one set of players against any other. The only such leeway I’ve seen is a built trust for certain airsoft groups to have their AEG’s set correctly and often site owners will allow that trust to run for games (i.e. that team do not get chrono’d at the start of the day as they are “trusted” not to be twats and take the phish).

 

That can and has been abused I know but random chrono’ing for all players helps against this.

 

Blind firing is not allowed in any UK sites I know of. Your stepson did the right thing in taking the hit (best to get out of the combat if there’s a tit like that about anyway!) but please make sure he knows he should be reporting these people to the Marshalls as well. Blind firing leads to serious injuries, any AEG will do serious damage to someone’s face if you connect with it barrel first!

 

Blind firing isn’t just about the “firing” bit, it’s about avoiding putting your metal barrel through someone’s front teeth!

 

[Treadhead]

Hmmm... now I haven't been to Amherst in a couple of months, but I severely doublt the site has changed from their high standards throughout the past few years...

 

Amherst is a site that has lots of tight spots and tunnels etc, perfect opportunities for blind fire... That said, blind firing is not, nor ever has been tolerated there. The marshalls are usually quick to pick up on it, and the players (on both sides) sensible enough to put a stop to it when they see it... Hopefully your stepson did the right thing and made the marshalls aware of the individual responsible...

 

As for the flat batteries to cheat the chrono business... What a twat, (both for being daft enough top think it'd work and for trying in the first place).. what concerns me is that those same individuals will sooner or later find out how to cheat it properly and will do so...

 

I've always been an advocate of chronoing guns with that site's (or marshall's or whatever) mags which are known to be loaded with the right ammo. I know they've done this a couple of time at CAGE sites but I don't know if it's current practice at Amherst...

[Stealthbomber]

TBH, I've been to a couple of sites who've allowed me to use a more powerful gun than most of the other players.

In fact, after commenting that I'd swapped to a 1J spring in my MSG90 (for my first game at a site) the owner gave me an M130 to put back in it.

 

Thing is, I'm not actually against this kind of thing as long as common sense is used.

 

As well as ensuring the site is safe, a site owner should also be trying to provide a fun and challenging experience for the players.

Vanilla force-on-force scenarios can soon get dull and a bit of variety, whereaby a large team takes on a small unit with powerful weapons or attackers try to over-run defenders with more powerful weapons, can do a lot to make the day more fun.

 

However...

 

The site owner should also have a duty to ensure that they only bestow this trust on players worthy of it.

It's very easy for players to get used to having an advantage and assume they have a right to it. Basically, people get into the whole "home-team" mindset and assume people who aren't part of that team are just there as cannon-fodder for their benefit.

 

 

Anyway, as to the original question...

There are easy ways to "beat" a chrono but using a flat battery isn't one of them.

Having said that, the difference between a stock TM gun (shooting at 260-odd fps) and a gun tuned to the legal limit of 328fps can seem massive sometimes.

Having said that, an experienced player will probably be able to spot a hot gun fairly easily.

I've been in games where I've been hosed by several people at the same time and one particular shot feels a LOT harder than the rest (subsequently proved by one huge welt amongst seveal faint ones) and it's obvious the gun is hot.

Bottom line is that any player has the right to question the legality of another players gun. Just mention to a marshal that a particular players gun seems to hurt a helluva lot more than everybody elses.

If you're told that he's allowed to use a hot gun because he's a "trusted" player then you need to ask if he IS gaining an advantage by using it.

Personally, my local site is pretty good like this. We rarely have any issues like this. If somebody is using a questionable gun (gas guns in summer for example) they'll simply stop using it voluntarily.

 

As for the blind-firing, here's what you do...

If you're hit by blind fire, call hit, hold your gun in the air and then walk right up to the person blind firing and pause there just long enough to say "Cut that sh*t out before you injure somebody you ****ing ****head!"

Hopefully that will make the person realise what they're doing or, at least, a marshal should become aware of it.

If you do this EVERY time it happens, and it turns out it's the same person/people all the time it won't be long before a marshal has to give them an official borrocking.

Blind firing is dangerous and stupid and unacceptable. End of.

[xerxes]

...I'm pretty sure that a 370fps AEG is EXTREMELY illegal in the UK... due to it being made to fire full auto and with an fps of over 360fps (on 0.2's), it's classified as a section 5 firearm. And, for those that don't know, that's the same as a REAL AK/M4/whatever in the eyes of the law.

 

(without launching into a mostly unrelated debate...)

 

It's anything over 1.35 joules that's the problem; making it around 382 feet per second with a 0.2g projectile. However allowing for a chronograph tolerance of 5% which is normal for most low-end chronos, it's about 362.9FPS. Then of course, you need to factor in how inconsistent most Airsoft kit is, yadda yadda...

 

So, 370FPS with a 0.2g projectile is not illegal, but proving that the projectile only ever left your barrel with that level of power and not higher than 382FPS would be tricky.

 

EDIT - The above only applies to semi or fully automatics.

[MDK_Marshal]

Pah, wasn't sure of the exact figure, and 360 was in my head for some reason.

 

Oh well, At least now people know the CORRECT facts

[xerxes]

*usual disclaimer, not a solicitor, bear in mind all that guff was based on some ancient test case unrelated to Airsoft, etc.*

 

Nah, you were pretty much bang on, 360 is about as high as I'd go and feel confident of my ability to prove my semi or full auto kit was UK legal.

[Tom Andrews]

Pah, wasn't sure of the exact figure, and 360 was in my head for some reason.

 

Oh well, At least now people know the CORRECT facts

 

4000+ posts and you still don't know the correct limits!!

 

Go to the naughty step and write out 5000 times...............'I must check my facts before operating keyboard'

 

 

Going back to the OP, isn't possible that your stepson simply misunderstood what was happening at the chrono?

 

As a site owner I'm amazed at the number of players who turn up to play with flat batteries. Excuses such as 'It was ok last week' or I'm sure the charger was switched on...' are common place, along with requests to borrow a charged site battery -

' Can I borrow a battery?'

'Big or small?.................Large battery with big Tamiya connector, or small battery with small Tamiya connector..........????'

' Ummm.............ah........I'll go and look......'

 

 

 

[GuzziHero]

This thread requires the insertion of that pic with the idiot blindfiring a grenade launcher round the corner into a player's face...

 

---

Stealth...I dont agree with favouritism towards players regular or not. If a site told me "Use an overpowered gun if you want to" I would walk away in the interests of fair play. If I DO have a gun I feel is a little toastie, I will use it semi only for the same reason...fair play.