Cybergun Masada By MagpulPTS?

[jkpics]

It ia a A&K.

[StarMonkee]

It ia a A&K.

 

Yes we know *golf clap* we've known since the thread was started. What we are discussing is Cyberguns tactics on thier pricing.

[uscmCorps]

Are MagPul going to be taking any action on this themselves or simply playing blind as not to upset cybergun?

Just because something isn't fully disclosed on an internet forum or announced on the Magpul PTS website, doesn't mean they aren't taking steps to address the issue. For all the public knows, even before this was brought to everyone's attention here, perhaps PTS has already exhausted it's options to try and rectify the situation. I'm not going to officially comment one way or the other on that. But I will say there are so many things that take place behind the scenes, it would be short sighted for anyone to assume the only efforts one or more parties are executing are that which you see on the surface.

 

Hmm gee, I wonder will they point out that the guns are available from other distributors for half the price to the peeps that own their biggest distributors in the US, or will they just keep taking in that licence fee they get from A&K for every one of them sold...

PTS gets paid regardless of whether the big distributors or smaller lesser known distributors sell their products. I've never known PTS to try to cover up or avoid the fact that there are plenty of non-official Magpul PTS dealers out there who sell Magpul PTS products. The only caveat to that situation is that buying from a non-official dealer makes warranty coverage a little difficult. If you buy from a local legit dealer/distributor, you can send the product back directly to the same dealer if a problem with the product occurs. However, if you buy from a non-legit dealer, warranty resolutions may take longer. If you buy from a non-local dealer (e.g. a US consumer buying from a HK retailer) that too delays things as you have to send the item back to the retailer you bought it from. While it may not seem completely fair to the consumer, that is a mechanism established to ensure that local retailers can remain competitive.

 

So in answer to your question, yes PTS will continue to keep getting paid for products that they have licensed to be manufactured under their brand. No they are not now, nor ever, going to ever tell people who they can and cannot buy from when it comes to their PTS products. They will however remind their consumers regarding the complexity of buying PTS products from a non-local retailer when it comes to warranty issues. If people see a conspiracy beyond that, well, there's not much that can be done about it. In my experience, people are going to infer what they want. I can only comment on what I know being privy to a lot of the goings on in these companies.

 

Regardless of whether or not this particular Cybergun product is out there, Spartan Imports is continuing to import the A&K Masada (not the Cybergun rebrand) as evidenced by the many retailers who have recently been fully restocked with them such as AEX, ASGI, Evike, Airsplat, to name but a few. No one is making any attempts to tell the consumer to not buy these A&K licensed Masadas. And no one foresees that to change.

 

But seems most people just skimmed over it

Actually, I did read the original you posted. It's just that I found this:

Dear Sir,

A&K Masada is manufacture under license. Cyber Gun is distributor of the licensed A&K Masada.

_________________________

 

SAMUEL LAM DIRECTOR

Doesn't sound quite the same as this:

The email I got back from PTS basically sounded like "We dont give a *suitcase* aslong as they give us money"

 

Sure you can read into their reply to your inquiry anyway you like, but I simply infer from it that (1) The A&K Masada is a legitimate licensed product, and (2) Cybergun is indeed a licensed distributor selling the legitimate A&K Masada. No where in his email did I read, "We at Magpul PTS don't give a damn, just show us the money." They gave you a very direct answer to what I assume was a very direct question on your part.

 

I see retailers all over the world selling items for different prices. Some prices are ridiculous. Just because the retailer is idiotic enough to try and sell a product at a certain price point, doesn't mean you should buy it. It's pretty rare that a retailer/distributor is fool hardy enough to try and sell something over the MSRP. What's much more common is when a retailer/distributor tries to severely under price a product well below the MSRP. In the latter of those two examples a manufacturer has more power to lean on the retailer to not create unnecessary drama by trying to undercut the competition by going below the MSRP. It's not often a retailer will try to list a product at 3-4 times the actual street value and expect to sell it. In that scenario, most (all?) manufacturers simply say to the retailer "You do realize you're asking a ludicrous amount of money for that product, right? Good luck with that."

 

My biggest issue with this entire product announcement is that a product is advertised on a retailers' website with a clear and intentional omission of what the product actually is, in the hopes of taking advantage of the less informed consumers.

[Dreamer777]

...i smell lawsuits.

[Leon Kennedy]

...i smell lawsuits.

 

Quite the informative post, I give it a 10.

 

I highly doubt there will be any lawsuit; this isn't really even a legal issue, just more of an issue of misinformation.

[WhiteHawksan]

Quite the informative post, I give it a 10.

 

I highly doubt there will be any lawsuit; this isn't really even a legal issue, just more of an issue of misinformation.

 

That is a VERY big 'just' and a VERY legal issue. It's fraud, mis-sale of goods. Its deliberately misleading advertising, these are all legal offences.

[Dreamer777]

So thier maybe a case to the following

Redwolf,Cybergun,and MagpulPTS.

[bulmedius]

off topic but...

http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/Sniper_Rifles_Cybergun_Cybergun_Dragon_Sniper_Rifle_Spring_Licensed.htm

 

now we have an extremely expensive A&K svd...

[Isamu]

off topic but...

http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/Sniper_Rifles_Cybergun_Cybergun_Dragon_Sniper_Rifle_Spring_Licensed.htm

 

now we have an extremely expensive A&K svd...

 

We get what we pay for

[NeoVeNoM]

Just to let you guys know.

A representative from cybergun has been visiting Belgian shops.

(One of my friends has a repair shop as a 2nd job.)

Claiming that only they are allowed to import Magpul PTS products in the EU.

And prices are high. (450EUR for an ACR, dealer price).

I'll see if I can dig up some documents. Though that will be very hard.

[TheFull9]

So, basically, cybergun is trying to become an EU version of Echo1, just a lot lot worse and even scammier?

[uscmCorps]

Can they even enforce that? Here in the US Spartan Imports is the exclusive PTS distributor, but there's nothing illegal about individuals or shops gray importing the products themselves from abroad. Just means that if someone gray imports, the exclusive distributor isn't responsible for warranty issues ... the overseas company is. Which to me is fair. But for Cybergun to flat out say you can't legally deal with anyone but them seems like an unfair monopoly.

[Dreamer777]

I Wonder why cybergun is doing this, A&K masadas bee out for a while, and probly overshawoed by the externaly better PTS, and the SVD is just a sign of more im afriad.

[GI0VANNI]

Why are they doing this??

 

A&K sniper 66$

Cyber... 167$

They do this for 101$, clear as water

 

Anyway check the product info, after the "well, this is spring but is OK, yeah=?? yeah??? will you buy it or I lose mi kidney?? yeah?? continues nicer:

All things considered though, you have to way in the price. With a price tag that you would expect to see on a mid to high end gas pistol or a low end AEG, a consistent shooting solid quality spring rifle like this is practically a steal. With its high power and large magazine it is skirmishable out of the box. A newbie can buy one to learn the basics of skirmish sniping or a more experienced player can buy one just to add some pretty wall candy to his collection.

 

I expect to see price tags of 75$, but always lower than 100$ on low end AEGs like the cymas you used to sell, jing gong, AGM..., not the cost of: http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/AEG_AEP_Dboy_Dboys_Full_Metal_RK_05_AK_74M.htm for a spring chinese made, frenchy stile boxed

[WWJS?]

It's relevant to mention that Cybergun's site was "updated" not long ago (probably as a quick response to the airsoft communities "popular reaction" to RW's price for the "Cybergun Masada").

 

Last week, when I was researching the FN-licensed G&G F2000 (ZOMG 530FPS!!!!!111! *swoons*) there were some "considerable" price differences for some products, for example, if I correctly recall, the G&G F2000 Tactical's listed price was 429€ at that time (about 382£ / 635 USD), but a week later it appears to have received a curious increase of 20€ (+/-30 USD), currently making it 449€.

 

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that pales in comparison to the previously shown price for the A&K Masada on their site (and that comparison is even taking in account the currently shown price for RW's "Cybergun Masada").

If memory serves right, last week the A&K Masada (as shown here, both FDE and BK versions) was listed at the completely satanic price of more than 800€ (850 more or less?), or 711£ / 1183 USD, at that time I lolled and preferred to think Cybergun was doing it as a sort of "social experiment", doing it for the lulz, if you will.

 

Curiously, probably shortly after the RW's "Cybergun Masada Incident" (after the *suitcase* officially hit the fan), the price was dramatically trimmed down to the currently shown 369€ (546 USD) which, by itself, is a rape of a price (I got my A&K Masada at 180€ for instance).

 

The MOE Carbines were 500 and something (550€?), I don't think those were at the currently 609€ mark (541£ or 900 USD), both prices are rapacious either way.

 

It's like a bad dream...

 

I would however like to see Redwolf Airsoft clarify in their product listing that this is NOT the current generation Magpul PTS ACR/Masada. Redwolf certainly appears to be misrepresenting the product through omission which IMO is deception via feigned ignorance. Regardless of who made it, make sure it's clear to potential buyers what it isn't.

 

My thoughts exactly, in fact, after I watched RW's article I instinctively googled for 'Cybergun Masada', of which this is the first hit.

 

I blame this.

 

I actually think

might be to blame instead, and in unholy quantities...

[NeoVeNoM]

Can they even enforce that? Here in the US Spartan Imports is the exclusive PTS distributor, but there's nothing illegal about individuals or shops gray importing the products themselves from abroad. Just means that if someone gray imports, the exclusive distributor isn't responsible for warranty issues ... the overseas company is. Which to me is fair. But for Cybergun to flat out say you can't legally deal with anyone but them seems like an unfair monopoly.

 

Exactly, and that's because their is a difference between being an exclusive distributor, or an exclusive licenseholder.

 

I don't know if they can, but they already inforced their licensing in shops for other products.

The best example is the "Colt" trademark.

They simply go in a store and check if anything sold with "Colt" trades has a proof of licensing by Cybergun.

If it doesn't, they give the shop owner 3 choices;

1. pay up for licensing.

2. Get your unlicensed stock removed by them.

3. Go to court.

 

I know one shop who had troubles through customs because of the trademarks on this ACM guns.

Someone must of tipped off customs regarding licensing. That somebody would be Cybergun, which is my best guess.

Now he sells Colt M4A1 licensed by cybergun for more than 300USD.

And yes, those are rebranded Dboys. Why do I know that? the battery, charger and manual that came with it gave it away.

 

In short, what we must know is; "Is Magpul PTS, Licensed by Cybergun?" If so Magpul PTS won't be selling much in the near futur.

I am sure many people won't be paying over 120USD for something like a MOE stock.

[uscmCorps]

Cybergun is an exclusive Colt License Holder for airsoft products.

Magpul PTS is an exclusive Magpul Industries License Holder for airsoft products.

 

Cybergun has been licensed to sell a rebranded Masada under the Cybergun name.

A&K has been licensed to manufacture and sell a Masada under the A&K name.

 

Both are equally legitimately licensed by Magpul PTS, and neither one supersedes the other.

 

Cybergun has a nasty tendency to assume that any brand they have any remote affiliation with automatically gives them carte blanche control of that brand on every level. Such is not the case in this particular setup. However, they have been empowered to pursue illegal counterfeits of Magpul PTS and Magpul Industries products in regions typically out of Magpul's and Magpul PTS' reach. Since the A&K Masadas with the approved markings and holographic stickers are a PTS licensed product, it is legal for resale by overseas vendors.

 

So perhaps I misread your earlier post, NeoVeNoM:

Just to let you guys know.

A representative from cybergun has been visiting Belgian shops.

(One of my friends has a repair shop as a 2nd job.)

Claiming that only they are allowed to import Magpul PTS products in the EU.

And prices are high. (450EUR for an ACR, dealer price).

I'll see if I can dig up some documents. Though that will be very hard.

I initially interpreted that as Cybergun implying that EU vendors may only import Magpul PTS products through Cybergun exclusively and that is the only "legal" option. That would be false. AFAIK, it is legal for EU Vendors to import Magpul PTS products from distributors other than Cybergun, however Cybergun is not responsible for warranty issues for products not imported by them. And that understandably frustrates the heck out of Cybergun, as it's very difficult to determine whether or not a product was imported by them or not.

 

But reassessing what you originally posted: "Claiming that only they are allowed to import Magpul PTS products in the EU." That would be correct. Vendors are allowed to import Magpul PTS products through Cybergun or any other distributor be it local or based in HK. However, if a vendor is found to be importing and selling counterfeit Magpul and/or Magpul PTS products, Cybergun has been empowered to explore legal options to prevent that from happening. So if any of the EU shops have counterfeit/unlicensed Magpul and/or Colt products, then Cybergun would indeed have a case against them.

 

As for the three options you mention that Cybergun gives the shop owners, those might be legal for Cybergun to follow through on for the Colt products as Cybergun is the license holder. However, for Magpul PTS infringing products, if a shop owner pays any amount of monies to Cybergun to "pay for licensing", I strongly urge those parties to contact Magpul PTS as to the particulars of that exchange. As it wouldn't surprise me if the money paid wasn't disclosed to PTS.

 

 

 

So in a nutshell: So long as EU Vendors import licensed Magpul PTS and licensed Colt products, they should be in the clear for those brands regardless of who they get the legal products from. If they're selling non-licensed/illegal/counterfeit products for either one of those brands, Cybergun has been empowered to do something about it. If Cybergun's prices are insanely high, import the legal products from elsewhere.

[WhiteHawksan]

There is also a 4th option that cybergun obviously wouldn't tell them, which is you are legally able and perfectly more reasonably to simply remove the trademarks. Then you don't have to pay cybergun anything or lose any stock. The only time you lose out on this option is when you're deliberately importing products with unlicenced trademarks to sell for having the trademarks, which you shouldn't be doing anyway.

[uscmCorps]

Excellent point. That's exactly what US importers have had to do for a lot of guns out here. Typically requires drilling out the head of the horse on the colt logo and destroying the word "colt". It's pretty ugly.

[WWJS?]

On the bright side, the feeling of not "feeding the machine" with our own cash kinda compensates for that... sometimes (personally I'd pay a bit more for good quality trades, aka: a realistic amount, but from that to 638 USD, wow... just wow).

 

The sacrifices that must be done to avoid all the legal ######... *sigh*

[WhiteHawksan]

well thing is, if you want licenced trades from an official dealer, for that 100% impression, then as much as it is dubious morally with RS comapnies charging for Airsoft royalties in essence, legally, its clear as day, buy a licenced trademark from any authorized dealer. If you simply want 'that gun' and the trades mean about as much as the state of the bolivian economy, then the removal of trades should be a perfectly accceptable option. A much nicer way to deal with the trades is to use liquid metal (UK brand name I think is often JB Weld) and fill out the trades, its permanent and you end up with a flat blank trade spot.

[uscmCorps]

I'd have much less of a problem with Cybergun if they (1) produced/licensed quality products rather than the overpriced mediocrity they've been peddling, and (2) priced things at a reasonable price point rather than the overinflated prices they've been demanding since they've established a monopoly.

[DarkLite]

Don't forget to add ( 3 ) Actually put realistic trademarks on the airsoft stuff they sell. I wouldn't mind paying a tenner here or there for the real trademarks, but when I'm told I need to pay a 200% markup for fake trademarks which bear only the slightest similarity to the real ones I tend to feel like I really should get into arson.

[WhiteHawksan]

I tend to feel like I really should get into arson.

 

That is all. you really hit the other side of the coin, when you DO pay for the trademarks, you want the damn real things.

[P.S.I.]

I actually think

might be to blame instead, and in unholy quantities...

 

Well have you see the "Mr. Cybergun" videos?? That guy is clearly on SOMETHING, and kokainum isn't a cheap habit.