NonEx Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Well, yeah. Like I said I an no genious but I figured it isn't without it's implications, and perhaps that information should be shared as well so that people who know less than you and I don't have accidents... So, just glad we got that down in text form so people know! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) No doubt dude. 70F. 134a. 140rds w/ bolt locking back on last round 1 second shot interval. 5 min rest time after a full mag is spent. Btw, a full load of mag is 40 rounds. After three magazines, I loaded the mag with 10 bbs on two different occasions as I felt that it was starting to slow down some. It actually went up to 144 rounds. Just that it wouldn't lock on the last 4 rounds before using up the entire charge. Edited November 17, 2012 by sacairsoftsn00py Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Meh. Too late to edit. Gun was shooting around 240-50 fps with toytec .25g bbs. Hop had also been set for that bb. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Danke Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 What sort of range are you getting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Seems the busted nozzle on propane isn't an isolated case. Another one reported at ASF in Minnesota: http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/TM-MP7A1-Busted-BBU-CYlin-t258279.html&pid=18678675#entry18678675 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kenxin Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) Seems the busted nozzle on propane isn't an isolated case. Another one reported at ASF in Minnesota: http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/TM-MP7A1-Busted-BBU-CYlin-t258279.html&pid=18678675?do=findComment&comment=18678675 That one broke in EXACTLY the same way as the one here, and doesn't have the bubble from casting. Well, looks like this thing can't handle green all that well... Snoopy's vs this other guy's: Edited November 17, 2012 by kenxin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkLite Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 2 reported failures out of thousands sold? DUDE IT'S SHITBUCKETED CALL THE WAAAAAMBULANCE 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Just buy another one. Lol. 134a for me until they come out with a reinforced nozzle. The nozzles are thick...just that on these two guns...the nozzles weren't able to take it. If/when guarder comes out with a nozzle....green gas/propane will be my preferred propellant of choice. Good find renegade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Thousands sold, but how many of those run on propane or green gas... I feel like Nostradamus here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Of those who are in japan or hk...how many are active on arnies to post up how theirs are doing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 That point goes both ways, now doesn't it ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 It does. Long term reliability is not guaranteed with. Of higher pressure gas at warmer temps. The one in MN busted while firing at 80 degrees...approximately 128 psi with propane. 134a reaches that pressurr at 100 degrees or so. Not sure if temps reach that high in japan. If it does, the nozzle should have been able to take that kind of pressure on 134a. Then again who knows...I mean how many people play at 1pp degree temps? Still...nozzles breaking is a temporary issue until reinforced nozzles come out. When they do...problem solved. Hopefully everything else holds up. The nozzle issue isn't new. A lot of gbb's suffer from it at some point. Some a lot quicker than others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kenxin Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Hmm perhaps I chose the words wrong. The point I was trying to make is that this second case broke in the exact same way without the presence of the air bubble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Like I asked previously, even if the PSIs are the same for the two gasses at different temperatures, do they expand and react the same when released from the magazine, ie. is the expansion as volatile for 134a as for green gas at the same PSIs. I don't know, but it might very well be a factor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm I think psi's play a great deal. Its most likely the main factor in breakages...considering it takes a split second for things to happen. What other variables could there be other than how quickly the gas expands once outside the magazine? Anyhow..that question is reserved for the technical section...or for those who like to find out everything...wish I have an answer for you but I don't. And yes, the other nozzle broke in a very similar way It probably wont be the only breakages that will happen. Bet the next account of nozzle failure will occur in a similar fashion. Higher temp, green gas/ propane, same breakage area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) You're the one who's telling everyone the two gasses PSI's (in your opinion also force of expansion when released) at different temps is equal and that it should be fine as long as the PSIs match up at any given temperature, yet you don't know if this is true or not ? Isn't the PSI just how much pressure the gas is under in a stored container at a given temperature, not how much force it expands to once released ? I think the boiling point is the other major factor that I am referensing. But I don't know, so I will leave it at that, but I think PSI for PSI is a bit too easy of a comparison to say it is a 1:1 ratio in force exerted. Edited November 18, 2012 by NonEx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GingaNinga Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 As a KSC Taiwan MP7 owner I am enjoying this thread. I was going to pick one of these up as well but it's already too cold to use GBB with 134a. Interesting to see the two failures reported. I might grab the images and hit up Marui on FB or twitter to see what they have to say. Maybe a chat with the boys at Echigoya or with ORGA to see if they are experiencing similar issues... however, it is nearly impossible to get propane here in Japan, so my guess is that 95% of these sold in Japan will be using 134a, so I don't think it will be as wide spread a problem. On another note, if anyone needs replacement parts, feel free to contact me and I can order from Marui directly. Echigoya has told me in the past that Marui is often willing to send parts directly to customers faster than to shops. How effective is the hop on this thing? Standard Marui quality? Also looks like PDI (X-Fire) has already got a tight barrel in for this. http://www.x-fire.org/e.index.htm 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 KWAs still a tank then! I reckon give it a year, then Guarder will come out with all theyre shiny parts and fix all the minor issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sacairsoftsn00py Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 You're the one who's telling everyone the two gasses PSI's (in your opinion also force of expansion when released) at different temps is equal and that it should be fine as long as the PSIs match up at any given temperature, yet you don't know if this is true or not ? Isn't the PSI just how much pressure the gas is under in a stored container at a given temperature, not how much force it expands to once released ? I think the boiling point is the other major factor that I am referensing. But I don't know, so I will leave it at that, but I think PSI for PSI is a bit too easy of a comparison to say it is a 1:1 ratio in force exerted. Ok. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) KWAs still a tank then! If memory serves, the first KSC release had the same nozzle issue too. Give it time, TM will iron it out. Regarding reporting breakages like these, it's not so much as to cause alarm or even to tarnish the companies name, it's simply to put it out, that it has happened and future buyers might expect it given the same conditions. Plus the more any problems are published the easier it is for after market companies to pick them up and make reinforced replacements. In some cases it's the parent company itself that makes design or material changes to make better their product. edit: To NonEx, you're right that there's more to gasses than raw PSI. There's the rate of expansion/decompression which is very different between the two. However I doubt there's anyone here with the tools or access to a laboratory that can measure that so PSI will have to make do as a general guide regarding how much abuse gas guns can take. Edited November 18, 2012 by renegadecow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wingmann Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Breakages on guns used outside the user's manual recommendations do not count in my book of failures 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 And that's just it. Countless of users feed their TMs with propane without a problem and while it's beyond what's recommended in the manual it's often taken for granted. Put the MP7 in the hands of someone with that mind set then have it break and they'll have the impression that they bought an inferior product. Let striking images do the work because quite frankly not many kids these days even go through the manual. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnc2k Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I did a quick chrono: 10 shots fired indoors with 'Cyber Gun Extreme Blowback APS3' gas using 0.20g BBs: Highest FPS 343, lowest: 323. Fired less than 100 rounds on that gas and no damage to the nozzle so far, I'm not going to risk it, so going to change to 'duster' gas until upgrade parts are released. I've tried the Umarex/VFC suppressor, the flash hider has the wrong direction thread, and unfortunately the suppressor does not mount properly to the TM flash hider, guess I will have to wait for an after market one as-well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AG1212 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 I did a quick chrono: 10 shots fired indoors with 'Cyber Gun Extreme Blowback APS3' gas using 0.20g BBs: Highest FPS 343, lowest: 323. Fired less than 100 rounds on that gas and no damage to the nozzle so far, I'm not going to risk it, so going to change to 'duster' gas until upgrade parts are released. I've tried the Umarex/VFC suppressor, the flash hider has the wrong direction thread, and unfortunately the suppressor does not mount properly to the TM flash hider, guess I will have to wait for an after market one as-well The Angry Gun version works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Xtcy Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Mine broke too exactly like the ones in the photos. I'm quite ###### and I used 134a gas.. And thats with one mag done Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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