I now understand why some fields ban green lasers...

[Azubi]

I'm certainly not trying to make out that just because the laser was pointed at someone then they are hit either. If I wanted to play like that then I would play laser tag. Muscle memory doesn't mean you have hit anyone either, nor does muscle memory necessarily work when you have 4-5inches of light intensifying tube sticking off of your face, distorting your depth of field.

 

Nor was my intention to 'willy wave'. I was pointing out a use where lasers can be a benefit. I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with me but pointing out a situation where they have been beneficial to me, and no doubt others too. You don't believe there is an advantage? Fair enough, that's your choice but there has been times where I have found such equipment to be an advantage.

 

You certainly seem to be quite aggressively against the notion of there being an advantages.

[hotelkilo]

ir lasers offer no advantage over normal visible lasers, why not ?  well because if ur team have nvg's then we can assume that an equal number of your enemies will also have nvg.

 

soo, with a visible laser the target or victim can use their blink reflex to minimise any potential damage, with your ir laser the victim has no such defense = unacceptable imo

 

and you have not addressed my very 1st point, "what if you are looking through a telescopic sight when someone shines their laser into it? "

 

thank you for your potential slur or ad hominem attack on for me being aggressive, what i am prepared to be aggressive about is other peoples eye safety is more important that some people selfishly enhancing their own airsoft experience..

 

have a nice day

[ollie_ty]

ir lasers offer no advantage over normal visible lasers, why not ?  well because if ur team have nvg's then we can assume that an equal number of your enemies will also have nvg.

 

What? How can we assume that?

 

 

soo, with a visible laser the target or victim can use their blink reflex to minimise any potential damage, with your ir laser the victim has no such defense = unacceptable imo

 

Not really. Visible or invisible, there are still power levels to be considered here. How do you know Azubi isnt using a low power IR beam to 'minimise any possible damage'

[Azubi]

You are right, there is a risk. It's a risk that is minimised by being careful and being aware of that risk. It's the same that can be said for people using high powered airsoft rifles with MEDs. People could pop up right in front of you, you could misjudge the MED or panic fire on someone close by. It's also the same with pyros. I have seen nasty burns and seen one go off right by someone's face, to which luckily they were wearing a face mask. BFGs can certainly do some nasty damage, not just thrown over arm either. Accidents can happen and so can misuse, you certainly won't see me waving around a laser permanently on like I am some Jedi knight though.

 

If a site or event organiser wishes to ban lasers, I will abide by their rules. If the site and their insurance deem them to be acceptable for use then who am I to argue? It's clear you believe them to be an unacceptable risk.

 

It's also clear that I won't budge you from your belief. Has your adament hatred shifted my point of view? It's certainly given me food for thought. I've yet to hear of a laser doing serious damage to someone's eyesight during airsoft and would be interested to hear of reported cases rather than ban things based on a 'well what if?'.

[hotelkilo]

well we can argue about assumptions or underestimating your opponenent all day long

 

all the ir lasers ive seen/used have been quite highend high powered units, there may well be lower powered models available, BUT with no blink reflex against an ir laser i am totally dependent on the guy shining the laser in my face as to how long i am exposed to it.. is this acceptable?

 

until someone with at least a phd in physics (perhaps even inclluding specific reserch on the effects of light energy/lasers on human tissue) convinces me that lasers are safe for viewing through magnifying lenses then im gonna have to err on the side of caution and say i dont agree with them at almost ALL airsoft events, sorry if that makes me unpopular,

 

happy to be proven wrong with science and facts rather than anecdotes or willy waving

[hotelkilo]

getting a burn on your hand from either misusing or poorly deploying a pyro is not the same as damage to your retina, at least not to me it isnt ymmv

 

and pyros used at as sites meet specific restrictions to be in line with insurance polices etc, that element of risk has been addressed imo

 

 

" Has your adament hatred shifted my point of view?" - i dont hate lasers, i just dont see their place in airsoft except for ppl to say 'wow look at my cool laser' etc its willy waving, nothing wrong with that per se (this is airsoft afterall) but not during a discussion about safety..  m'kay

[FireKnife]

Erm ok?

 

 

Seriously you don't have to be that defensive about it all, if someone that knows what they are doing and is an intelligent player then why should they not be given options to play with what they want?

 

Remember it is all about the intelligence of the player as to if they should be allowed to use something. To quote Stan Smith, 'guns don't kill people, people kill people', so yeah intelligence and capability should define it, however this is hard to predict so often blanket bans are sadly the way forward .

 

From what I saw of Azubi when I met him the guy seemed about as stable and a decent player as many others I have met.

 

'FireKnife'

[ollie_ty]

What airsoft events do you agree with their use at then?

My site has specific rules on their lasers for insurance purposes, IE Red lasers under 0.5mW only.

And stop using the phrase 'willy waving'. Its gross.

[Azubi]

You are right, the blink reflex is an issue and there is the possibility of magnification through a lense. The IR laser in question is a low powered diode that I installed in place of the red laser that was originally there. It would have to be several seconds of staring into it to start to cause damage though.

 

It still raises the point about how far do you ban stuff based on 'what ifs'.

 

I have something to think about.

[DWZippy]

Eesh, I stirred up the nest - to be honest, at mil-sim events, I'd trust the use of IR lasers because most of the people there know what they're doing [to an extent]. My problem is with standard open days, with untrained folk just waving around laser beams - it happens regularly at the mall, I don't remember the last time I played there and didn't have a midgame tannoy announcement banning lasers. 

 

Also, stop crowing on about getting better muscle memory so you won't need a laser to aim, we're not all uber commandos - I can hit someone within 15 metres without shouldering my P90, but I don't fancy trying that with any of my other guns  

[Aitch]

What will decide the outcome is when some poor sod is left with a damaged retina after a mishap and he does the claim culture thing and reams a sites insurance for a lifetime injury, then insurers wont allow them,

 

As for IR lasers, they should not be allowed, they are very dangerous seeing they don't force you to blink if they contact your eye, very useful in a real life military/LE mission but in a game, they're not needed, I'd think weighing partially blinding someone against enhancing ones gameplay would be a no brainer,

 

Also no kitemark (this way the power output will be what it says it is) on the laser they shouldn't be used on any UK site.

[hotelkilo]

imo if no one was using magnifying optics AND all lasers were below 'safe' levels, AND any ir lasers were being used be actual responsible people rather than random airsofters then i would be fine with their use.

[Azubi]

As for IR lasers, they should not be allowed, they are very dangerous seeing they don't force you to blink if they contact your eye, very useful in a real life military/LE mission but in a game, they're not needed, I'd think weighing partially blinding someone against enhancing ones gameplay would be a no brainer,

 

Also no kitemark (this way the power output will be what it says it is) on the laser they shouldn't be used on any UK site.

Like I said, this thread has certainly given me something to consider. My use was much like an IR spotlight, a quick blip to get on target then off again so very little potential exposure time. Last thing I want is to cause issues for others and as au said, accidents can potentially happen as you can never entirely eliminate risk without eliminating the cause.

 

The times I have used it, it has been allowed by the site owners and covered by their insurance. Still, I wouldn't want to *fruitcage* someone's eyes up so happy to take this thread into consideration and avoid using it.

[kenxin]

This is MY OPINION , and nothing else, it's not informed, or researched to any serious degree.

 

If something is UNREASONABLY dangerous, just don't do it. (I'm actually in favor of japan power restrictions, nothing above 1j even for DMRs or snipers.)

 

Same applies to lasers, if they can harm you in any serious way, just don't use them. 

Lasers are in my opinion quite dangerous in anyone's hands because despite how good anyone can be pointing at center mass instinctively, there may be a time when someone just CROSSES your line of fire and looks directly at the damn thing.

Also, you can never be sure of the power of the damn thing and I don't trust the average china clone to be fully tested for safety (not with my eyes anyways).

 

Unlikely? very, but weirder stuff has happened.

 

Again, my opinion, nothing more, nothing else.

[hotelkilo]

 I've yet to hear of a laser doing serious damage to someone's eyesight during airsoft and would be interested to hear of reported cases rather than ban things based on a 'well what if?'.

 

 

this is a tricky one because your eye can suffer permanent damage and u could be completely unaware of it. what your eye 'sees' is not what your brain 'sees' and the targets perception of the actual harm is not always accurate.

 

if you have ever been flashed by any high powered laser u have almost certainly suffered some damage to your eye, and afaik its accumulative and non repairable. this is a serious consideration for anyone and even more so for anyone with any ongoing diminishing eyesight condition

[creepingfear]

What's the lowest powered safest laser you can get in the UK for airsoft? One that won't burn your eyeballs out like holes in the snow.......?

[hotelkilo]

hehe

 

no idea m8, my local site has a blanket ban on all lasers (taped up or batts out) which suits me fine

 

ive played at events that allow the use of lasers and i just tried to avoid people as much as possible, wanting to take part in a big event was more of a pull.. that time. as time goes on and more people put ir lasers on their guns it might affect my decisions when playing at other sites or big events unless there are clear rules in place.

[Yuri]

From what I understand, lasers with power under 1mW are considered safe by American and European regulating agencies. This is because the blink reflex will protect the eyes at this power level, unless the laser is viewed through a magnifying optic like a telescope or a microscope, or if it's invisible like an IR laser.

 

Also, you can never be sure of the power of the damn thing and I don't trust the average china clone to be fully tested for safety (not with my eyes anyways).

 

This is an important point. If your field only allows IR lasers under 0.5mW, then how do you make sure that this power level is not exceeded? Do you have equipment onsite that allows you to measure the power output? Blindly trusting the labeling does not seem wise. I've seen green lasers marked as being 700nm, which is actually a red wavelength. If they can't get that right, who's to say the power rating is correct? This is even worse with IR lasers where you can't use your own judgement to see if they are too powerful. A laser diode bought from an electronics store is probably more likely to be labeled correctly than a complete unit from an airsoft retailer.

 

I'd say that if you must use a laser, stick to red ones (no IR involved).

[Danke]

Eye safe IR lasers exist. You won't find them in an airsoft PEQ box of course but they are on the ground. Even the "nice" G&P DBAL aren't cleared as OK.

 

I know outside of the USA finding one of these safe items can be a real challenge and the guys who do know are not talking since they don't want to show their hand.

 

Word is that a veritable flood of civi IR lasers that are tagged with FDA paperwork is headed our way.

[FTZ-WildeCard]

Like airsoft in general, when playing with lasers, use a bit of common sense and don't act like a twat and they are fine.

 

This is my school of thought. A bit of a tangent - but I think this is very similar to full auto and higher powered DMR/Sniper Rifles and MEDs. We have to trust a lot to our fellow players to not abuse things.. But as others have already, all it takes is one dozy fool and everything is ruined. 

[PureSilver]

If you think a laser is going to ruin your eyesight and you don't trust your fellow players to be responsible with them, why don't you just put some laser film on the inside of your eyepro? It's not like it's very expensive or particularly difficult.

[FTZ-WildeCard]

If you think a laser is going to ruin your eyesight and you don't trust your fellow players to be responsible with them, why don't you just put some laser film on the inside of your eyepro? It's not like it's very expensive or particularly difficult.

 

So it filters the laser? I was interested and Googled "Laser Film" but turned up nothing of use - any ideas?

 

Cheers!

[hotelkilo]

This is my school of thought. A bit of a tangent - but I think this is very similar to full auto and higher powered DMR/Sniper Rifles and MEDs. We have to trust a lot to our fellow players to not abuse things.. But as others have already, all it takes is one dozy fool and everything is ruined. 

 

 

If you think a laser is going to ruin your eyesight and you don't trust your fellow players to be responsible with them, why don't you just put some laser film on the inside of your eyepro? It's not like it's very expensive or particularly difficult.

 

 

 

fortunately my local site has a blanket ban on all lasers, take the batteries out or tape it up, 

 

so there is no need for me to do anything, let alone ruin the excellent antifog abilities of my chosen eyepro or their clarity just bc some silly little willy waving moron wants to show us his new 'cool' (but essentially useless FOR AIRSOFT) toy.

 

 

as for the damage to your eye caused by exposure to lasers, its a bit like the damage that loud noises cause your hearing during your lifetime. perhaps each actual incident will be mostly unimportant but over time and repeated exposure damage will surely be done. and furthermore the victim has no idea how much damage has been done bc their experience of vision is much the same after the exposure as before, only a detailed study of your retina can determine the damage caused, or OVER TIME u may notice degradation in your eyesight.

 

i already have a condition that means my eyesight is degrading irreparably over time, i dont want to add to that in any way. YMMV 

 

anyone who thinks that visible lasers should be allowed where other people are using telescopic sights OR lasers that are over the specific 'safe levels' that are already in place, OR that ir lasers should be open to use by everyone.. is a selfish fukwit imo  

 

would you skirmish at a site where no one wore eyepro because they said it "ruined the look" yet they all agreed to not shoot each other in the face 'for safety' ?

 

once more for the ppl at the back, lasers are essentially useless for airsoft imo, however laser safety in airsoft is an issue, poo-poo-ing it does not make it go away

[hwagan]

My opinion on lasers is pretty much in line with yours; A tightly focused torch beam can serve the same purpose in CQB, and I agree they're mainly for the cool factor. I know plenty of people use lasers responsibly and effectively, but I know plenty of other knobheads would show up with a handheld green laser with the idea of BF3 style dazzling people because they're well 1337. It seems to be just banning lasers is the safe option unless you're at a hardcore super-milsim game where everybody knows the risks etc.

 

 

 

willy waving 

 

 

 

On another note; please, please stop using that phrase. 'Showing off' would be just fine.

[Inari]

So because there is a possibility of damage to the eye, rather than taking precautions they must be banned outright? That sounds mighty like politicians' approach to activities like shooting and airsoft. There is potential for harm/misuse, so it must be banned. Personally I think you are overreacting, big time. Obviously it's personal for you because your eyesight is diminishing...but as Puresilver said, there are safety precautions available for you. It is completely up to the individual to decide what level of PPE (personal protection equipment) to wear.

 

Thunder B grenades, Pyro grenades etc produce very loud noises - should they be banned from use? Or should concerned parties wear earplugs? AEG's and GBB's have the ability to break teeth (depending on power of guns, and strength of teeth) - should they be banned outright, or should concerned parties take precautions?

 

If someone wants to use a laser, let them. If they're acting the maggot, they should be reported to the marshals and site owners, and they can deal with it just the same as any other dangerous play claims. I might be alone here, but I don't see the issue. Lasers have some use, as already stated, and most of the time they remain unused - there really isn't a problem. If you are personally concerned, then take your own precautions and ensure it isn't an issue for yourself either.