Perfect CQB Team

[c_a_r_t_e_r_3_5]

the sas fire from the hip in their 'kill house' training and the famous Iranian Embassy Siege, they used Retractable stock MP5's from the hip and on automatic. Retractable stocks obviously are less bulky for things like abseiling etc but also since they dont shoulder the weapons there is no need for the solid stock.

 

edit: surely close quarters battle is the most suitable place for automatic fire since accuracy/weapon stability isnt as importantant since the range is alot less. Also, entering a room/clearing it would be quicker and easier with the use of automatic.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

they used Retractable stock MP5's from the hip and on automatic

How do you know? Were you in there with them?!

 

since they dont shoulder the weapons there is no need for the solid stock.

For a CQB you're not going to use an M16. Why? It's basically too long. I'm not saying it can't/hasn't been done, but its not very practical. It's common sense to use a retracting stock because; it is compact, but can easily be lengthened to be used as a shouldered weapon.

 

surely close quarters battle is the most suitable place for automatic

I do agree with you on this. Automatic fire is good for CQB, so long as it isn't a 100 round "burst". There is no point in firing single shots when you can fire three or four in the same amount of time and still be accurate. Speed kills ..(or bounces off in this case!)

 

accuracy/weapon stability isnt as importantant

I only get my SAS knowledge from Ultimate Force ... but accuracy is the up-most important in Close Quarters.

 

"If an X-ray's holding a weapon and about to use it, tap-tap, in the mouth. Takes out the back of the brain, stops the message getting to the trigger finger"

 

My point is, accuracy is the most important. I'd say it comes before firepower.

 

entering a room/clearing it would be quicker and easier with the use of automatic

Clearing a room is about knowing were to go and how to enter. I'm not saying that I'm Chris Ryan when it comes to this, but it does involve some skill..not just poking your MP5 around the corner and wasting them!

 

Im sorry that it looked like I was picking your post apart (alliteration!) but frankly, the points you made were poor. I hope this helped on the whole CQB thing.

 

 

EDIT: Concerning the post above. Using the 'low ready position' allows greater field of vision and manoeuvrability. This is where the butt is into your shoulder, but the muzzle is facing downwards. It only takes a second to go from that position into a firing position.

[GuzziHero]

Who told you an m16 full-length cant be used in CQB? Noone told me, or Cas'Ne and we use a2 Rifle and M14 respectively in Unreal where engagement ranges can be down to a couple of feet. We do just fine.

 

Hmm...I still disagree with hip firing and blind firing. Unless your eye is on the sights or at least running down the barrel, its definitely borderline at best. You can turret a gun from the hip independantly from the line of sight, thats what Im saying here.

[Chimpy]

Handsome Pete - The tactics of yesteryear are not always the tactics of today and to release current SOPs would be reprehensible. So take 'zomg SAS' videos with a whole heap of salt.

 

Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

 

Just to show that you can shoot quickly and accurately on semi-auto:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gEZLPv0FN0

[Handsome Pete]

I do, thankyou. Yes you can't believe everything you see. And fair enough SOP's have probably changed but i don't why they would change that much given the success of the siege.

 

Thanks for the video but i have seen many like that before and shot live rounds on semi aswell.

[psikodude]

under arm and from the hip are very different.

 

And aren't we talking about CQB, where did the GPMG come into play? ha ha.

[Chimpy]

I do, thankyou. Yes you can't believe everything you see. And fair enough SOP's have probably changed but i don't why they would change that much given the success of the siege.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Tactics change directly because of experience gained during that and other operations. After Action Reviews are done for a reason. That and the experience gained in setting up and cross-training with one of the best police units (CO19) in the world. I believe last year they conducted in the region of 300+ pre-planned raids. That is operational experience far beyond one pre-planned action and the limited (albeit less so at the moment actions of our SF) operational use of CRW since then. That and sharing with others in a similar line of work shapes SOPs and TTPs.

 

Simply put; if you stick to the same tactics the bad guys will learn to defeat them.

[Handsome Pete]

Simply put; if you stick to the same tactics the bad guys will learn to defeat them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fair point.

 

and yes i going to admit my first post the other day was a bit generalised and vacant.

[Basho]

i wear glasses too... they dont quite completely seal, but thier safe...

goggles are just too damn uncomfortable...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yikes. Please have your team bring full face when they come visit us. I have personally seen a man using glasses get a ricochet into his eye under the frame and he lost some of his vision permanently.

 

As for teeth, I have also seen teeth shot clean out at UK FPS.

 

IT HAPPENS!

 

Anyway, back on track. I am very much an accuracy buff rather than a spray and pray merchant. My fire team within the dark angels is led by Trip and includes/included him, me, my oldest friend and a guy I work with. Thus when playing we didn't need to speak, we naturally played as a team should. It was a good feeling.

[c_a_r_t_e_r_3_5]

"You never stop for a man down. You linger, your two mates in the hall get it as well. One dead becomes three. Speed, Agression, Surprise"

 

(A bit different, a BB bounces off you, so its not like you're bleeding to death...but still!)

[Belladonna]

Yikes.  Please have your team bring full face when they come visit us.  I have personally seen a man using glasses get a ricochet into his eye under the frame and he lost some of his vision permanently.

 

As for teeth, I have also seen teeth shot clean out at UK FPS.

 

IT HAPPENS!

 

Anyway, back on track.  I am very much an accuracy buff rather than a spray and pray merchant.  My fire team within the dark angels is led by Trip and includes/included him, me, my oldest friend and a guy I work with.  Thus when playing we didn't need to speak, we naturally played as a team should.  It was a good feeling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

indeed.

 

when we play, ill be wearing a balistic lense fitted s10... im more agressive with my face protected, i just prefer glasses for lfu as urban is outside too...

and ive had a tooth shot, stung, but was ok... i keep my mouth closed now

 

indeed, teams should know eachother, i find regular team socials, being friends, training constantly on the same thing, till the team can read eachothers minds, knows how each other react, and know thier drills perfectly and efficiently.

then, nothing can stop you...

[kerberos_]

Fook me this has made me smile muchly

 

I fire from the hip allot and dont use my sight and I manage to take out people. And no, not because I unload a 200 capactiy magazine either.

 

Besides, ever heard of suppressive fire?

 

Its not always about taking aim, one shot, one kill.

 

 

Anyway, what the real army does with real fire arms and real training is different from airsoft. Though some of the tactics, training etc is useful.

 

Never underestimate your opponent.

[Handsome Pete]

indeed, teams should know eachother, i find regular team socials, being friends, training constantly on the same thing, till the team can read eachothers minds, knows how each other react, and know thier drills perfectly and efficiently.

then, nothing can stop you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of the best points ive read so far.

 

 

Fook me this has made me smile muchly

 

I fire from the hip allot and dont use my sight and I manage to take out people.  And no, not because I unload a 200 capactiy magazine either.

 

Besides, ever heard of suppressive fire?

 

Its not always about taking aim, one shot, one kill.

Anyway, what the real army does with real fire arms and real training is different from airsoft.  Though some of the tactics, training etc is useful.

 

Never underestimate your opponent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

wow, finally someone who knows what i'm on about and agrees. There's no right or wrong way, each to their own and what ever works best for you.

[Chimpy]

There's no right or wrong way, each to their own and what ever works best for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

+1

[GuzziHero]

We got a guy shot in the gum (the GUM?) at Unreal last week. Owchie.

 

If Unreal get to EW, Ill be using a Senshi mesh mask

[kerberos_]

Some have just got good hand/eye/range co-ordination.

 

Like at football. What makes me able to not think (just do), kick a ball 40 yards and pinpoint it onto someones foot 9/10?

 

Again, because we use BBs, there are many more factors people ignore. Accuracy of your rifle versus consistency is vital. Like I said, these are 'toy' guns, not real arms - I know thats obvious, but the way people speak sometimes, I think they forget

[darkchild130]

wow, much posting since my last post.

 

Handsome pete: You are stuck in 1980, thinking that everything is per Iranian Embassy siege.

It isn't.

Soldiers do not fire from the hip, period. Only machine guns fire on automatic, for suppression and before anyone says "well why does the SA80 have an automatic function then?" its because it was designed in a bygone era when automatic rifle fire was acceptable. Firing automatic from the hip these days would get you put in prison when you tried to justify every shot fired in court. Besides single shots are so much more accurate and economical for ammo conservation.

 

Kerberos: When do you ever need to suppress in CQB? If you are suppressing an enemy, you are doing something wrong, unless you are covering a team moving from one building to another, in which case its FIBUA and not CQB.

 

Belladonna: You only find firing a GPMG from the shoulder hard because you are small, my section's Gimpy gunner was point man on all of our trench clearing attacks in our recent Exercise in Canada and I didnt let him fire unless he was firing aimed Bursts from the shoulder. Obviously you cant fire single shot with a gimp so bursts are acceptable.

 

Dont think for one moment that i am trying to tell you not to use automatic fire from the hip in your games, you do what you want as it is only a game. Im merely pointing out that you (Handsome Pete) are under the impression that firing from the hip in CQB is "Good drills" when it isnt.

 

Darkchild

[GuzziHero]

Suppression happens a lot in airsoft CQB. The enemy is round a corner, you wanna keep em there. Thats how long, boring stalemates occur, unfortunately, but it is understandable from some players.

 

Me, I like to do things to break such stalemates such as finding new places to take out key enemy targets (which is why I play as a DM), slicing the pie, sneaking behind the enemy or sneaking up to corners while teammates suppress.

 

In real life, ammo capacity doesnt really allow suppression with service rifles. But this isnt real life, this is airsoft. We have hicaps, almost infinitely reliable weapons and we like to use them!

 

Every time someone compares airsoft to real combat, somewhere deep in space, an alien species becomes extinct. Please think of our inter-galactic cousins.

[darkchild130]

you illustrate my point, suppression in CQB equals boring stalemate therefore losing momentum and possibly losing the fight.

 

But as i said before, do what you want, just dont be surprised at an arrogant response from a soldier (happens a lot around here)

 

Darkchild

[GuzziHero]

I agree with you there in theory. Im not uber competitive but to me, a stalemate/draw isnt what I play for.

 

I know now what you mean. Suppression shouldnt happen in CQB. Sadly, it does

 

Realcaps/Midcaps FTW!

[kerberos_]

Eh? Since when did suppression only apply to certain varients of airsoft games?

 

Seriously, thats the most ignorant thing I've read today

 

Suppressive fire isn't restricted to a varient of an airsoft game - it applies to the situation (game).

 

Suppressive fire does not equal a stalemate. That seems to be your theory.

 

 

Watch out folks! No pegging back your enemies in woodland - apparently you are "doing something wrong".

 

Enlighten us, oh wise one, why it's wrong?

[kerberos_]

It sounds as if you are suggesting that the games you play, the only winner, is when the other team is dead. Which is total nonsense.

 

Know what annoyed me when I first started airsofting?

"How many kills did you get?"

It's a team game, therefore winning should be the objective, though, I do agree, I'm all about fun and it's not like winning is the be and end all - but it IS the mission objective - generally.

 

I will give you a suppressive fire situation in woodland - which I love to play in.

We have to get a charger into a base. We must provide cover for our man to drop the charger (it cant be thrown). We can't take all the guys out around the base - maybe there are more elsewhere. So we suppress the team so our man can get to the base and place the charger - game won.

[Chimpy]

Eh?  Since when did suppression only apply to certain varients of airsoft games?

 

Seriously, thats the most ignorant thing I've read today

 

Suppressive fire isn't restricted to a varient of an airsoft game - it applies to the situation (game).

 

Suppressive fire does not equal a stalemate.  That seems to be your theory.

Watch out folks!  No pegging back your enemies in woodland - apparently you are "doing something wrong".

 

Enlighten us, oh wise one, why it's wrong? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well traditionally it's used to allow your guys to move into a killing position.

 

Two guys at each end on opposing teams and a hicap each effectively shuts down a corridor to any movement. Essentially making it 'impossible' to get near one another and leaving the other umpteen people playing waiting around a bit bored for one or the other to get hit before taking up thier position. Turning it into a boring battle of attrition.

 

Edit: Just to add that it is a justifiable defensive tactic but one that only lasts for as long as you have ammunition.

[darkchild130]

EDIT: @ Kerberos.

 

its wrong because suppression shouldnt be a factor in CQB. Im eluding to the "good drills" that others have mentioned.

In the simplest terms:

You conduct room entry, clear the room, cover all entry points then the next team pushes through yours and contimues onto the next room/corridor/stairwell etc. There is no place for suppression. If you get hunkered down in a shootout you lose cohesion with other units advancing with you, lose control of the situation, waste time and ammo and most importantly you give your enemy time to think.

Also, the ranges are too close to properly suppress anything, at ranges of 10metres or less the enemy will just attack you or withdraw (if they've got any sense)

 

CQB is all about speed and agression. Lose either one and everything starts to go wrong.

 

And there's no need for sarcasm or i could just pull out the

"dont comment until you have done it for real" card.

 

I'm merely posting my opinion, if you dont agree with it, post a convincing counter argument.

 

Darkchild

[kerberos_]

Dunno, I don't tend to look on 'traditional' methods. I use the means necessary to get the result.

 

But, from what I understand, its pinning the opposition back, keeping them 'suppressed' while you do X. X to me isn't limited to and exclusive to getting into a killing position.

 

Anyway, to rule out such a useful tactic based on you're understanding of it's tradition, is a bit silly IMO.

 

 

Again, it depends on the GAME you're playing - the objective. I think you are limiting yourselves to certain situations.

 

What is the objective of this game?

 

"Two guys at each end on opposing teams and a hicap each effectively shuts down a corridor to any movement. Essentially making it 'impossible' to get near one another and leaving the other umpteen people playing waiting around a bit bored for one or the other to get hit before taking up thier position. Turning it into a boring battle of attrition. "

 

While this is going on, is there another section of your team doing something else? You do have options. Suppressive fire does not limit them directly, as such.

[kerberos_]

EDIT: @ Kerberos.

 

its wrong because suppression shouldnt be a factor in CQB.  Im eluding to the "good drills" that others have mentioned.

In the simplest terms:

You conduct room entry, clear the room, cover all entry points then the next team pushes through yours and contimues onto the next room/corridor/stairwell etc.  There is no place for suppression.  If you get hunkered down in a shootout you lose cohesion with other units advancing with you, lose control of the situation, waste time and ammo and most importantly you give your enemy time to think.

Also, the ranges are too close to properly suppress anything, at ranges of 10metres or less the enemy will just attack you or withdraw (if they've got any sense)

 

CQB is all about speed and agression.  Lose either one and everything starts to go wrong.

 

And there's no need for sarcasm or i could just pull out the

"dont comment until you have done it for real" card.

 

I'm merely posting my opinion, if you dont agree with it, post a convincing counter argument.

 

Darkchild

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Im sorry, but I have no time for 'absolutes', thats all.

 

I think you take terms like CQB too literally. It might be fine to say its based on 'speed and aggression' in your eyes, but again, it's about the objective and a successful outcome for your team.

 

That is what I am all about. Not ruling out a method because of some snobbery.

 

 

 

And there's no need for sarcasm or i could just pull out the

"dont comment until you have done it for real" card.

 

Done it for real? Dear goodness...pull it out, I bet its only worth 3 inches