Perfect CQB Team

[Janno]

Thanks for all the help lads, theres some great info here. Just need to practice it now...

 

What does the term "ceiling" mean in the electrowerkz video though please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The intermediate training video was filmed at the CQC training facility in South Wales, not at Elektrowerks, though all the people in it are either DAs or independent candidates. It's taken during the night training, where we repeat the day's exercises over and over again to gradually work out the kinks before the final exercise the next day (usually a fully planned, fully briefed hostage rescue, bust, or CP exercise). The CQC footage here was a dry-run with no live hostiles and no "live" rounds. The reason why the candidates are shouting what they are doing is because once the entry has been made, the room must be searched and the support man must keep the door open with eyes in the room in case support is called, or the rest of the team is needed. We found that, in the first day of training, candidates were getting "tunnel vision" after engaging a hostile, the number 3 man wasn't always ready in a support role, or they were forgetting to sweep some parts of the room altogether. Hence why that particular run focused on a thorough search of the room as its main objective (when the drill was conducted with live hostiles, it was made very clear how easy it was to get the drop on a team from behind the door or from holes in the ceiling insulation).

 

Yes, it may look naff, but we don't believe in cutting corners when it comes to training.

[GuzziHero]

Fully sealing eye protection? You mean goggles? I for one cant wear them, but I do wear glasses with a tithe cord to keep them tight to my face.

 

Ive never known anyone to have glasses shot off there, and Im there almost every week. Not saying it cannot happen though. But everyone knows the risks they take. For me, Id give up 'softing if it meant wearing goggles all the time.

[Helghast]

a great CQB team would probably be 5 close friends who work together well who have established a set of non-verbal commands and know how to cover eachother well. it should consist but its not limited to: 2 assault riflemen that are more towards close to mid range that use weapons like the AUG, G36C(K), FAMAS, M4,(anything small), 1 mid to long range riflemen for those super accurate times or when theres a long hall, 1 breech man (using a shot gun or a gun that can really spray fast but is light), and finally a heavy gunner thatv mostly covers the rear or a retreat or lays down the law when nessesary.

well thats my opinion

[Crispin1025]

GuzziHero, check out this thread. Eye injury reports. There are "bug eye" glasses for woodworkers/lumberjack that fully seal and take up no more space, if not less space, than your glasses, check them out.

 

Cheers,

Daniel

[DarkAngel1]

a great CQB team would probably be 5 close friends who work together well who have established a set of non-verbal commands and know how to cover eachother well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

welcome to my world.

 

Thats exactly how the DarkAngels play......

 

 

 

There are three other players on my team, who when we play together do not talk to each other we know each others style of play so well, it like playing a swarm. You can ask Big D how difficult it is to get anywhere against us, he found out two weeks ago.....

 

Sparing use of radio's is very important as well.

 

In my opinion your whole fireteam of around 6-8, preferably eight, are best equipped with short aeg's with high ROF's and back-ups of some description. Flashbangs are excellent when used correctly, our team have custom ones made for us, thanks to our sponsorship by SPECTRUM pyro's, but we aren't able to use them at Electrowerkz due to the central london location and twitching botty-holes.

 

But when we do get let loose with them, it gives us a big advantage as we are used to breaching rooms without them.....You could always substitute the shotgun for an MGL or heavy use of Moscarts, but we pride ourselves on no longer using what used to be our trademark Moscarts, you don't NEED them in CQC, but they are a darn sight more useful in CQC than in the woods. We find they give us too much advantage and make games boring. I once spent three shells in quick succession and killed a whole fireteam of eight. Objection attained within two seconds, good fun but makes for a boring game......

 

I love CQC, not to be confused with FIBUA, which is still more fun than the Woods.

 

You don't like your face if you wear googles or glasses at Electrowerkz. At those distances on full auto, its just a matter of time before you lose teeth etc. Full face all the way, mesh masks for the win.

[starburst]

GuzziHero, check out this thread.  Eye injury reports.  There are "bug eye" glasses for woodworkers/lumberjack that fully seal and take up no more space, if not less space, than your glasses, check them out.

 

Cheers,

Daniel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Im gonna get some of the Wiley-x SG1s or the new guarder clones as I can use them as sunglasses

[Belladonna]

GuzziHero, check out this thread.  Eye injury reports.  There are "bug eye" glasses for woodworkers/lumberjack that fully seal and take up no more space, if not less space, than your glasses, check them out.

 

Cheers,

Daniel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i belive its the full seal issue... plus guzzi wears prescription inserts, which he cant in those...

and at uk fps, the chance of it going through glasses is low, and in terms of in the side, ive seen that more times with people wearing full face...

in 2 years playing, ive been hit on the glasses 4 times, all on the front, (key = dont put your back to the enemy)

Chris - I have the guarder C3s, comfy, protect well, and with the shades inserts, look cool as

[Naked Singularity]

Personally, I would NEVER go into ANY enclosed space without my full-face JT Spectre paintball mask. Even so, I've seen cracked lenses. I've put a layer of clear duct tape over the outer surface of my lens to reduce the chances of fragmentation. EYE PROTECTION IS SERIOUS BUSINESS - TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

 

Everyone at my site is pretty serious about eye protection. The only person NOT to have this level of protection is the girl who often plays the hostage. She often wears nothing more than a tight dress when playing the hostage. She's safe because:

 

1. She is blindfolded at near all times. The blindfold is extremely thick and can dampen the impact of a .25 g BB at 400 FPS from 20 feet away.

2. She's the hostage and nobody is authorized to shoot her.

3. She's easily identifiable by her white dress and blonde hair.

4. None of the guys are willing to hurt a defenseless girl.

 

In some scenarios, she gets a GLOCK 18C that no one knows about.... She can really surprise the "terrorists" when she pulls out that vicious little beast and lights them up with automatic fire.

[GuzziHero]

An armed Princess Zelda Who plays as Link?

 

Luckily we dont have those monster FPS guns here. The thoughts of that kind of power at Unreal...

[Naked Singularity]

She gets the 18C only when she has to play the "damsel in distress." In normal games, she plays with us just like anyone else would. She packs a VFC AK-74SU/18C as a terrorist loadout and a CA HK33/KSC USP .45 Compact as a mercenary loadout. She's an average woodland player, but she has good tastes in terms of weaponry. Since she's German, she likes European-style weapons. As far as I know, she has the 18C, the AK-74, the HK33, the USP, a KSC GLOCK 19, a TM P90, a TM CAR-15, a KA FAL, and a VFC M60VN (!).

 

For CQB, my G3SG/1 is useless. I'm planning on getting a CA AUG A1 for that.

[Handsome Pete]

our team is thinkin doin a cqb theme. It will be black assault vests or pt body armour and thigh mag pouches depending on the person. Everyone will have an MP5 of some sort, 100 rnd mid cap and automatic fire from the hip. Torches will be pretty standard. Then its either gas masks or hoods and goggles. We do alot of 'training' of room clearing drills etc. Pistols will be of choice/what we've got. Probably hicapa's 226's, kimbers etc.

 

As long as you've got automatic fire and good drills it should be a piece of ######.

 

A G3sg1 is in line if a long range marksman is required. As/if when we do it, ill try and get some pictures up.

[darkchild130]

except that real forces (British ones anyway) do not use Automatic fire in CQB or fire from the hip.

 

Darkchild

[ComradeStanyer]

Why not just get one guy with a mini gun? Sounds good to me.

[Handsome Pete]

the sas fire from the hip in their 'kill house' training and the famous Iranian Embassy Siege, they used Retractable stock MP5's from the hip and on automatic. Retractable stocks obviously are less bulky for things like abseiling etc but also since they dont shoulder the weapons there is no need for the solid stock.

 

edit: surely close quarters battle is the most suitable place for automatic fire since accuracy/weapon stability isnt as importantant since the range is alot less. Also, entering a room/clearing it would be quicker and easier with the use of automatic.

 

Ive also seen documentaries and been told by those in the armed forces that GPMG's have been fired from the hip and hitting the enemy.

[psikodude]

which documentaries?

[Crispin1025]

the sas fire from the hip in their 'kill house' training and the famous Iranian Embassy Siege, they used Retractable stock MP5's from the hip and on automatic. Retractable stocks obviously are less bulky for things like abseiling etc but also since they dont shoulder the weapons there is no need for the solid stock.

 

edit: surely close quarters battle is the most suitable place for automatic fire since accuracy/weapon stability isnt as importantant since the range is alot less. Also, entering a room/clearing it would be quicker and easier with the use of automatic.

 

Ive also seen documentaries and been told by those in the armed forces that GPMG's have been fired from the hip and hitting the enemy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the contrary, close combat is the most important place one needs to have the weapon shouldered. Accuracy is paramount, particularly when you never know if you have a hostage around the corner and need to take that life saving shot. I don't know what your smoking as far as your SAS information goes, but it is WAY off base. Same goes for automatic firepower, it is a no-go more than likely in such close areas.

 

Cheers,

Daniel

[Sale]

EYE PROTECTION IS SERIOUS BUSINESS - TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

 

She's safe because:

 

1. BS Excuse 1.

2. BS Excuse 2.

3. BS Excuse 3.

4. BS Excuse 4.

 

In some scenarios, she gets a GLOCK 18C that no one knows about.... She can really surprise the "terrorists" when she pulls out that vicious little beast and lights them up with automatic fire.

Do I smell a contradiction here?

 

Have you actually tried to shoot her in the face when she's wearing the blindfold? At point blank? Everyone's eye protection in the field must stop a BB fired from any distance with the strongest gun in the field, even if there are engagement limits. That's how you take eye protection seriously.

 

Saying that the guys won't shoot her because they are not allowed to and they wouldn't want to is hogwash. Especially she sometimes has the surprise element of suddenly being armed. By the way, how does she shoot blindfolded anyways? Another liability.

 

Oh and I don't claim to know about previous decades, but SF operators nowadays shoulder their weapons for CQB. Firing guns from the hip is for movies like Commando.

 

-Sale

[Crispin1025]

Thanks Sale, +1 for ya!

 

Cheers,

Daniel

[psikodude]

Rifles are always fired from the shoulder. From the limited cadet training I've had (Sea Cadets and Army CCF edit: many years ago LOL) it was drilled into me that you always fire your rifle from the shoulder on every weekend exercise, if you were ever caught firing from the hip you'd be doing 100 press ups etc.. I would like to know what documentaries you (handsome pete) have been referring to.

 

Only the likes of John Rambo and John Matrix have the apparent skill to accurately aim from the hip and have magical infinite ammo with everything they fire.

[GuzziHero]

TBH...if I saw anyone shooting from the hip frequently in an airsoft game, Id be speaking to the marshals. Thats blindfiring.

 

The only time I saw someone do that in airsoft was a guy with a Minimi. He got pasted from every single direction, including his own team. That ws classic.

[starburst]

Technically its not blind firing as you can see where your bbs are going

 

Agree with Sale, a blindfold dont sound too safe, alot of guys out there should know how it feels to get shot with a watchcap...that stings a bit and they are pretty thick

[Sale]

Some infantries teach shooting machine guns from the hip, because they are a bit heavy to be shouldered for a longer time when moving. You can't get the same kind of "swing" from low ready with a 10 kg machine gun as you can with a 4 kg assault rifle.

 

But that's a bit off topic already.

 

-Sale

[Handsome Pete]

One documentry i can't remember the name of, probably something like 'battles of the sas' or something along those lines. Anyway, they interviewed a couple of guys (most had faces shadowed) and one topic was of fighting in the deserts of Oman in the 70's. One of the troopers recalled a fire fight and re-enacted his movements on camera. It was here that he explained that as the enemy opened up on them they fired and manouvered forward with him firing from rthe hip with his GPMG.

 

Secondly, my infomation on the embassy siege comes from a video and book. The video i own, its about 10 years old titled 'SAS The Complete soldiers' Story' by carlton. Nearly all of the commetry is told by soldiers. It tells various accounts of battle but especially the Embassy Siege. The faces are all blurred or balaclavad but in it they re-enact the Siege using former members of the SAS who were actually there (John McAleese) and actors. One stands and explains the kit they wore on the day, weapons etc, he then fires it wirth the butt of the rifle under his arm. Then on the reenactments, trhey drill locks and terrorists whilst firing in this same positon and on automatic.

 

McAleese also explains how the final terrorist to be killed ran down the stairs amongst the hostages trying to escape, a trooper saw a grenade and smakcked him down the stairs then '2-3 magazines were emptied into him, the sound was deafining'. John the explains how the post mortom stopped counting rounds at 78....and how in just '2 point something seconds this guy has about 80 rounds in him. And he just drops like a sack of spuds'. 78 rnds in 2 and half seconds on semi automatic....

 

It is a very interesting and well made documentary. And no, im not 'smoking' anything chum.

[Belladonna]

its not blind fire, as you can see down range.... blind fire, is when you cant see where your barrel is pointed... hip is just another aim...

 

also its effective for mgs, as when standing, fireing one shouldered is hard as hell...

[Handsome Pete]

Also, with rifles ive been taught, place the butt in the crook of the shoulder, the rifle becomes and extension of your arm. In cqb this can make manouvering very hard, and slow. With it under your arm, pressed against your hip, it doesn't get in the way and goes everywhere you do.

 

edit: with a sub machine gun under your arm, it makes swinging back on its sling very easy and quick (espec with a retrcatable stock, so getting your secondary out doesnt take ages.

 

as for accuracy comment, i dont think i explained myself. What im saying is, with a target at long range you are less likely to hit him on automatic as recoil with push your rifle up and about, therefore single shot semi auto is better as you can control your aim. In CQB the target is closer, therefore when shooting him at say 10 metres, the recoil will have a less effect on the aiming (when on automatic) then something at 300 metres.

 

by hip firing i mean stocks under the armpit.