A&K Kriss AEG

[uscmCorps]

There's no reason why Krytac couldn't make a GBB Kriss. The external appearance/tradedress was licensed to KWA and that has since expired. The more apt question is if a Krytac GBB Kriss Vector can use the same GBB internal design as the earlier KWA Kriss Vector. Possibly not. But that's for their respective lawyers to argue who owns the internal design technology as it pertains to Airsoft. I suspect that if Krytac could use the same Airsoft internal design, they would have already done so by now. Farming the work out to VFC would have been an option if their own production facility wasn't able to do it

[Horsem4n]

I imagine they could improve the cylinder volume, use a compression spring to retract the nozzle, change the magazine and hopup to a more marui spec, but I don't know about the recoil train. Sounds like a tough legal battle to me. But then again, who knows if KWA will be petty about it.

[uscmCorps]

Pettiness is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether they (Yih Kai or Kriss) have a legal right to the Airsoft internal design. Someone expended a lot of time, money and resources to making it work and from what I recall patenting the Airsoft system. The question is who retains those rights. I don't have a dog in this fight so it really doesn't matter what I think. It's down to lawyers and judges. It sucks for the consumer not getting what they want but at the end of the day it's about businesses defending their IPs. Whoever legally owns it is who should prevail. That's the way the system works.

 

Personally, having lugged around 8 or more heavy gas blowback mags many times and for hours on end, and being constantly worried about dropping them, I welcome the arrival of the Krytac Kriss AEG (whenever that may be).

[paranoiddroid]

I'd say patenting most airsoft internal systems is fairly shaky ground as so much is derivatives of earlier designs, I think if they reengineer the design and modify it they could do it especially with it being a licensed product if Kriss had to approve the design or had any imput they could own some of it. they could just get the factory who made the kriss to oem them for them there's a fair few options depending on how much bad blood in terms of the relationship between the companies.r

 

unfortunately who owns the idea may not matter because who has the most money can prevail simply by outspending their opponents and drowning them in fees till they give up/are forced into mediation because they cant afford to carry on.

 

Nerakhon I wouldn't cheer for an airsoft company being crushed for producing a "counterfeit" it sets a bad precedent especially with how much of the market isn't licenced or approved of. Even though the majority of designs produced aren't covered by any real legal protection. producing an item that looks like a real firearm isn't going to be an infringement or a derivative. Glocks are a special case because that issue is the copyright of the glock silhouette and elements of the appearance.  

 

reproducing trades are a problem but blank receivers or fictionalised/public domain trademarks wont be an issue it all depends on how the design is protected.

[uscmCorps]

Anything is possible I guess.

[hitmanNo2]

It seems to me that KWA can't make a GBB Kriss without the OK of Krytac and Krytac can't make a realistic GBB Kriss without the internals from KWA.  Now to my mind, the simple solution is they both shake hands and go back to printing money and make the GBB again.

[Alias1983]

Kriss can use a gbb design of their own, it will appear"the same" but it won't use kwas design (valve, nozzle, mags).

 

Kwa holds the rights to their design which is not the same as the next guy doing it with different mag's, nozzle, valves.

 

Unless they hold the rights to the look as well which is stupid.

 

But rights will expire because they can't use it so why waste money on it? Unless kwa becomes the next cybergun.

[uscmCorps]

Copyrights have expired and reverted to the original IP holder (Kriss) from what I understand. Patents are a different matter and I personally have no idea who retains the Airsoft internal patent rights. US Patents last for 20 years. Patent infringement cases are big business in the USA. Patent's are to protect the company, not the consumer.

 

Regardless, I think it's smart that Krytac is working on the AEG Kriss. GBBs are typically more finicky to manufacture, and for the consumer to run. Most AEGs, while they don't have the cool felt recoil and identical manual of arms as a GBB, are generally more skirmishable by most people's standards across the world and sell more.

Higher volume in sales = good business.

Less finicky guns = happier customers.

AEG mags are lighter than GBB mags = lower shipping cost.

Less expensive mags = greater profit margins and happier customers.

In terms of economics, an AEG Kriss Vector makes a lot more sense than a GBB Kriss Vector.

[Gunnman]

So, general consensus on the A&K is: Even if it doesn't have 3D printed nightmare looking externals, Just wait for Krytac.

 

I think it would be funny if Krytac releases their's and stop production for God knows what reason, with only A&K left on the market.

 

/sardonic theory

[uscmCorps]

From what I understand, the A&K Masada, though somewhat aesthetically inaccurate in size and details wasn't a bad gun. It was "good enough" for some consumers. This gun may have the same going for it.

 

That said, as an unlicensed product I doubt we will see wide spread adoption in aftermarket support (be it from A&K regarding replacement parts or other companies) due to its infringement. Krytac on the other hand would make a licensed and warrantied product and have a vested interest in making sure that CS/product support is continued for the life of the product.

 

People will buy the A&K Kriss if only due to impatience over waiting for the Krytac one to come out. But at those quoted prices with more than likely limited to zero support, it's certainly a huge gamble that any consumer would have to weigh.

[allizard]

Guys, I'm still alive.  Especially you Alex, if you are going to talk about KWA and Krytac.  Please let me know.  ;-)

 

 

 

On a personal note, I'd rather wait till Krytac gets their Kriss Vector released. I was pretty impressed with it at Shot Show. If they have midcaps for it and functional burst fire, I'll be a happy camper.

 

Two round burst, and 120 Mid cap.  it's a double YES.   I did invite you to Shot Show MGV party.  Where were you?

 

The thing is there is a 9mm kriss vector and from my point of view it would make much more sense to produce the 9mm version. I totally get the version produced was the 45 and needs the large frame Glock magazines.

The thing that disappoints me is there's still no large frame Glock available in airsoft a combination of a vector in 9mm and a small frame Glock such as the 17 would be cool what would be even cooler is for the 45acp vector and a Glock 41 mos would be even better (the long slide competition gun with the slide milled for an RDS like the mini doctor)

 

9mm Vector  didn't exist until this year.  So you can't blame KWA for not using Glock 9mm mag.  In fact, they were concern the Glock mag can't hold enough pressure for the Vector bolt.  Moving the bolt downward like the real gun takes a lot more energy.   We had trouble finishing the BB with 1 gas fill during prototype testing.   As for making a large Glock frame, Yih Kai actually did plan to produce a large frame ATP based on the short Vector mag (Glock 21)   That of course never produced.  

[paranoiddroid]

That sucks that it wasn't produced and it's interesting to know that issue from the testing,

 

We could wait for the ash then see a drop in conversion using the externals of the age like with the tavor maybe

[PureSilver]

From what I understand, the A&K Masada, though somewhat aesthetically inaccurate in size and details wasn't a bad gun. It was "good enough" for some consumers. This gun may have the same going for it.

 

By all accounts the A&K Masada is an unmitigated disaster internally and externally, but I agree with you that a very significant proportion of airsofters are happy to overlook hideous deformities and fatal flaws in products if there is a significant price incentive. You only have to look at how many clone BASRs Well manage to sell to realise that a significant minority of airsofters would buy a flaming turd if it was less than $100.

 

That said, as an unlicensed product I doubt we will see wide spread adoption in aftermarket support (be it from A&K regarding replacement parts or other companies) due to its infringement. Krytac on the other hand would make a licensed and warrantied product and have a vested interest in making sure that CS/product support is continued for the life of the product.

This. Although I've never particularly desired a Vector, I'd hate to see the same problem strike this platform as afflicts the ACR/Masada - that the licensee successfully prevents all but the crappiest company from making an independent product (A&K, in both cases) but then chooses an absolutely terrible OEM (Ares, in the case of the Masada) to make the licensed gun. Consumers should have better choices than horrible clone or dire and grossly overpriced licensed model. The situation with the Masada is so bad that if someone asks for advice on one the best recommendation is a WE MSK - an unlicensed and barely semi-faithful bargain-basement effort which still manages to be better than the official model. Fingers crossed that Krytac do better with the AEG Vector.

 

Guys, I'm still alive.  Especially you Alex, if you are going to talk about KWA and Krytac.  Please let me know.  ;-)

 

I know you're trying to be friendly but this comes off like you're trying to tell uscmCorps what he can and can't say - it's not a good look.

[Habakure]

This aeg looks like it was made with 'After Eight' (mint chocolate) boxes.

[paranoiddroid]

Puresilver in fairness the Well VSR makes sense for people who want to build a serious BASR because if I'm going to replace the barrel, the hop unit, the piston, the spring and the trigger group anyway why would I spend 300$ on the base gun only to junk 90% when there's one for sub 100$ That I can do the same with.

 

It does look a little like that Alizard, when you do pop in it's great when you bring actual useful/interesting knowledge to the discussion.

 

I'm hoping we will see an aeg to gbb drop in kit sometime soon after release.

[uscmCorps]

I recall dry firing the gun at Shot Show but aside from the nice aesthetics I don't recall a whole lot of the specifics.

 

Rereading this thread, I didn't get the impression I've said anything disparaging about any company other than A&K and their horrid unlicensed knock offs. I thought my comments regarding KWA/Yih Kai and Krytac have been candid and positive. In the future I'll keep my comments to myself on this specific matter.

[paranoiddroid]

I'd rather you didn't I find your lthoughts on the industry interesting

[Habakure]

I recall dry firing the gun at Shot Show but aside from the nice aesthetics I don't recall a whole lot of the specifics.

Rereading this thread, I didn't get the impression I've said anything disparaging about any company other than A&K and their horrid unlicensed knock offs. I thought my comments regarding KWA/Yih Kai and Krytac have been candid and positive. In the future I'll keep my comments to myself on this specific matter.

I would say personal opinion is the point of a forum. Thats all I see in your post(s), so I think carry on as normal. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's (and in some cases more valid).

 

Finger crossed, this bucket of sick, pushed in to a rectangle made of plastic, *fruitcage*ed up born cube, never sees the light of day.

[allizard]

I recall dry firing the gun at Shot Show but aside from the nice aesthetics I don't recall a whole lot of the specifics.

 

Rereading this thread, I didn't get the impression I've said anything disparaging about any company other than A&K and their horrid unlicensed knock offs. I thought my comments regarding KWA/Yih Kai and Krytac have been candid and positive. In the future I'll keep my comments to myself on this specific matter.

 

I probably had bad day.   So I apologize if my response seems odd.  And please be as candid as you want about KWA and Krytac.    It's been three years and all the people who originally work for KWA USA already left.  There is no holding back.  

[paranoiddroid]

KWA USA didn't seem great to work for/deal with

[icolater]

Poor old KWA, they produce their best product to date and things start to go pear shaped for them. If only they kept the deal with kriss and also produced the spinx with the same vector quality, things would be differant today for sure. I'm still a fan, as I like the mp7, glocks and of course the vector (best smg gbb ever)

[Dj_komodo]

I'll put this right here

https://www.kriss-usa.com/press-release/47-kriss-usa-responds-to-unauthorized-reproduction-of-vector-aeg

[hitmanNo2]

I saw that.  I'm sure A&K are really scared lol.

[harborne blue]

I'll put this right here

https://www.kriss-usa.com/press-release/47-kriss-usa-responds-to-unauthorized-reproduction-of-vector-aeg

 

The problem is that the Chinese govt does nothing to enforce copyrights... There's no point innovating these days because the moment you do, all your hard work gets ripped off as cheap rubbish by China. With a ready market through Ali Baba and eBay (how many times has that UK seller based in ???? turned out to have a Chinese paypal address?).

 

Latest example - Laybag. Quality product, they did all the hard work on R&d and advertising only to see cheap knock offs on eBay five minutes later.

[Gunnman]

There's no point innovating these days because the moment you do, all your hard work gets ripped off as cheap rubbish by China.

 

Latest example - Laybag. Quality product, they did all the hard work on R&d and advertising only to see cheap knock offs on eBay five minutes later.

There is a point, people will pay for the quality OEM. Lot's of people don't view these cheap copies as a viable product.