What counts as a hit?

[The Waco Kid]

At least you're straight and give your opinion quite frankly.

 

I'll explain were I'm coming from, I don't expect others to agree with me either but I prefer that people get the history so they can judge for themselves at least.

I got my first airsoft gun nearly twenty years ago when they were all self build kits & very fragile stringers at that. Like many airsofters I started out shooting my mates in the back garden.

 

In my later teens I became heavily into paintballing to the point I became involved in the competitive side of the sport as well as working on the odd site.

Having played paintball & airsoft for many years and seen the stereotypical players come & go quite often. I have seen far to many arguments on the field ruin everyone's day to even be remotely interested in who started it.

 

I stopped paintballing on any serious level because I felt it had become to heavily commercialized and most sites had a "get the punters through the door" attitude which didn't leave much room for fun.

 

Also the competition scene had become a joke, players were interested in sponsorship, getting there mug in a magazine & there was (still is I believe) too much tolerance for "professional" cheating as players wouldn't leave the field unless tagged by a marshall.

This was because reputations & money were riding on the results on the matches. This happens to some extent in any sport once it moves into the competitive area. It starts to attract wannabe's or creates players who aren't there for the game itself, but are instead motivated by the desire reap the supposed benefits or pander to their ego.

 

Fortunately for me this was about the time that airsoft skirmish was just beginning to emerge in the UK, partly due to the increasing availability of some half decent TM AEG's. Good bless the FAMAS & MP5.

When I went to my first "public" skirmish (organised by Tom Andrews who really should be in some Airsoft hall of fame) that wasn't just me & my mates shooting each other, I immediately felt the welcoming game driven atmosphere that paintball seemed to have largely lost.

 

I still have a lot of fun skirmishing as most commercially run sites still do it for the sake of enjoyment not just as a money making scheme. However I do sometimes get a bit concerned by suggestions of starting a mainstream competitive airsoft league and the direction some of the larger site operators seem to be heading.

 

I think these two issues could have more impact on the future health of airsoft in the UK than anything the VCRA throws up. I believe the increasing commercial & legal pressure could rapidly drown out the voice of the individual player if not careful managed.

 

Currently most sites welcome all comers and it's almost possible to go from being the proverbial newbie to becoming an old hand overnight. In many ways I think this is a positive thing as the regular players keep there feet on the ground & it's a very egalitarian concept. I might having played for twenty years but someone who arrived twenty seconds ago could (& often does) take me down a peg.

 

Hmmm, I digressed a bit.

[happyboy]

When I play with my friends whom I trust enough, we play and keep it realistic. We don't go out unless we feel we have been satisfactorily 'killed', like with 2 or so body shots, or a head shot. That is the most fun way to play, I think. But it would only work with very attentive referees in a public site.

[Hatman]

At least you're straight and give your opinion quite frankly.

 

Precisely. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who could of replied to this thread with a similar answer but didn't. I am not exactly proud of what I do, but I seem to be the kind of person who plays to have a minimum standard of enjoyment out of the game.

 

When I play with my friends whom I trust enough, we play and keep it realistic. We don't go out unless we feel we have been satisfactorily 'killed', like with 2 or so body shots, or a head shot. That is the most fun way to play, I think. But it would only work with very attentive referees in a public site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I see that as a more fun approach to the game, only if its with close friends though. In a backyard game I normally ignore the first shot to the leg or arm unless it really stung.

 

The problem starts with people's own opinions on what a kill is. I say a body/head shot or multiple leg/arm shot is a kill. I base this entirely on the skill needed for the shot, not what a real bullet would do. (The exception is where I mentioned not taking hits if I am very snugly behind cover, as they were almost certainly rebounds anyway.) Someone might say that you need to be hit more than twice anwhere but the head. Someone else might say that a headshot won't count because 'their helmet stopped it.' I see the logic in this, but you should reward someone's skill (or sheer malignancy ) for that kind of shot.

[AirsoftKid94]

cap brims getting hit as I imagine in real life a round passing that close would have some unpleasant effects but thats all I want to say on that particular matter

 

I dont know about that

 

But about your hit problem id call it a hit because play whenever a BB hits you its an out

[warboy]

My local site states that anything but a ricochet or gun hit is a "kill".

 

I tend to take any hit even if I`m not sure, as it stops people complaining that you don`t take hits. Besides the marshalls are really hot on cheaters and will simply call whole groups of players out of the game if cheating is reported and confirmed.

 

In airsoft taking hits is a matter of trust and as such even if you`re not sure you should take it as a hit.

[Radrockin]

To eleaveate any type of misunderstanding we B.o.E have a rule in place called a Hit is a Hit . Ricochets do Count , Shooting through Bushes and shrubs do count . Ronald Regan a US president was shot in th 80's. The gunman was a lousy shot , He pulled the trigger while the president was being rushed to his limo and a ricochet hit the armor plated window and ricochet into the Late Presidents tummy causing him to E&E to the hospital . So if it can happen in the Real world " a Ricochet" then it can happen in the Airsoft world just the same . Once you take all hits as a hit their leaves no doubt in anyones mind that a hit is a hit and you cannot say "hey it's a ricochet" I'm still alive ......yeah right ..but hey Airsoft is about fun and doing what makes it fun and if you want to try combatsim then try the ricochet and all hits count or just play how you play and have fun doing it but.. you will notice allot of kills and you your self will be killed but the evolutions of the game will move allot faster and high speed low drag is the name of the game.

A Hit is a HIT !

 

Game On Troops!

Rad

[The Waco Kid]

If you played at a lot of sites, especially the more CQB ones, using that richochet rule then there wouldn't be many players in the game after the first 30 seconds.

[chowiez]

any hit of bullet dirctley is a hit.

bounce backs and others dont count

[Kellhound]

Here some people tried to define what angles of ricochet counted as a hit or didn't.

 

To add a little more fuel to this topic:

What about arcing fire from grenade launchers?

[Exhumed]

I would take a "direct" ricochet but there's a few places at my local where a bb could hit a surface behind you, having flown up and over your head, and then drop down onto you with little force. If you were to take this kind of hit, you would be dead as soon as anyone came into range of your position (thinking about a raised tower here, with one entrance at the back and an arpeture at the front). Now it would be easy enough to make the mistake of, when having been snuck up on from behind and shot, thinking that the direct hit on the back through the entrance door was actually just a bb rebounding off the wall behind you having been fired from the front of the position.

I haven't seen this cause an argument yet as it's easy enough to check out the door and see a shooter there with a bead on you, who will either ask for your surrender or pop a few more rounds off to make sure. But I can understand a zero tolerance kind of ruling- if a bb hits you, no matter where from, no matter whereabouts on your person or kit, then you're out.

Our sites doesnt need this I think as there's enough honest regulars to keep it on an even keel, but I imagine some places with unscrupulous players could do with the stricter ruling. I totally agree that to lower yourself to the level of cheaters in order to win is a victory not worth winning.

[Eggy777]

The easy way to view it is, anything that causes you to pause whilst playing or even causes a break in concentration ie "uh, what was that?" should be counted as a hit. The guys who play the whole "well I can't see anyone around" theory get on my nerves as my whole game stratergy is that you can hear but not see me.

Plus if everyone plays like that it saves me having to go for the double tap in that fleshy part just below the jaw bone.

 

Personaly if I think I might have got hit at all, I walk.

[The Waco Kid]

To add a little more fuel to this topic:

What about arcing fire from grenade launchers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In my experience most sites accept long range arching fire from more weapns as hits if they are "direct". This is simple because of the low velocity & short range of an airsoft.

 

If bb's are dropping on me from above & I am in the open then I'd take the hit.

 

If they were falling down through something that is deflecting them onto me then I would not, but only if I was sure & I'd probably call a marshal.

 

If I was behind solid cover (ie. something that for airsoft is hard cover) and the bb's were dropping over the top onto me I would not take a hit if I was sure no-one had a direct line of fire.

 

With many airsofts & wind effect you can often shoot around a corner to some extent. If I am just barely inside the edge of cover & get hit then I would can that a fair hit as I may well have unintentionally expose an elbow etc. However on even moderately windly days I've seen bb's swing pretty sharply around a corner by as much as a foot or two, in that case I would not expect anyone struck to call themselves out.

[Venge]

For me, "Ow" counts a hit usually.

[minimiman]

What counts as a hit?

 

Whatever the site rules say at the site your playing at.

 

If the hit rules are not clearly explained at a players briefing then the site operator is going to go through a world of pain sorting out the arguments as there are so many differences of opinion.

[Blazer]

My site a hit is a hit...

 

but if you don't see it, feel it, or hear it then you can't take it.

 

Once hit we have a full set of combat medic rules and things to do as a result, which makes taking a hit part of the game and gives you and your team mates things to do.

 

However, caveat, we play linked scenarios with an over arching story arc that goes back 10 years of playing.

 

So yeah, we are all barking mad in our little fantasy world

[Edmiles]

Here's one for ya, last year's GroundZero weekender. I'm moving along a path, someone opens fire from behind and miss, I turn around and fire a burst to keep his head down while I retreat to cover. He fires again, I see a bb hit my gun (not counted at GZ) and there is a loud ting off its metal body.

 

I carry on heading to cover and the man throws a pissy fit shouting etc. He says how he heard it ting off my helmet, however my helmet is a fake replica and is made of a strong plastic. It does not ting when hit. Thus, I did not take the hit as I saw and heard it hit my gun.

 

But, I will use this to raise an issue: Should helmet hits even count? If a real bullet had hit a real helmet from range, chances are the person would be alright (but probably dazed/knocked over) So should helmet hits not count?

 

One may argue that it's not fair as not everyone has a helmet, but on the other hand the people that have spent out on a helmet and carry it on their head despite it being a weight burden, could at least get a little advantage to it? Other than the look.

[RSM]

I would say yes to helmet hits counting, because if you want to play the realism angle of helmets as armour...at the ranges we play at the real versions of the AEGs we carry would still make swiss cheese of a real helmet.

 

I used to wear a Mk6 kevlar until I found that it was causing me to receive more headshots in game due to the fact in increased my target silhouette, by that I mean while I knew my head was in cover, the extra half inch (helmets have to sit off your head so the force of something hitting it doesn't immediately get transferred to your bonce and its squishy innards) and material of the helmet was sticking out enough from cover to get pinged, so I ditched in exchange for head wrap type thing, blends in well, weightless, less for people to shoot at.

[Delfi]

Any hit anywhere counts ... otherwise things just get too complicated. "I had a cigarette case that saved me ... no hit"

 

If in doubt call yourself out

 

Some sites allow weapon hits in which case you shout 'weapon hit'.

 

D

[DarkLite]

But, I will use this to raise an issue: Should helmet hits even count? If a real bullet had hit a real helmet from range, chances are the person would be alright (but probably dazed/knocked over) So should helmet hits not count?

 

One may argue that it's not fair as not everyone has a helmet, but on the other hand the people that have spent out on a helmet and carry it on their head despite it being a weight burden, could at least get a little advantage to it? Other than the look.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A 7.62x23mm makarov will penetrate both sides of a Mk6 or MICH/PAGST.

 

Rifles, certainly.

[Sledge]

Helmets O' Truth.

 

[The Waco Kid]

Sledge your helmet is loose on Arnie's again.

[Kellhound]

We have some simple rules for helmets, but only use them at our own milsim or reenactment games.

For body armor it's been a little more difficult to arrive to a simple to use and not too complicated (or that can be easily abused) rules, so at the moment we leave vests out.

[BenjaminRombough]

whats the point in argueing really even if your unsure of whether its a hit or not if the sites well run enough then go respawn and get back into it.

 

For the Milsim side of things if its a rifle take it if its a pistol then dont as the docu file thing that sledge posted above shows not even a magnum will penetrate your gonna give them a sore head and possibly knock em out but not a kill.

[w733commando]

Helmets O' Truth.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's an interesting website, thanks for pointing it out.

[DarkLite]

whats the point in argueing really even if your unsure of whether its a hit or not if the sites well run enough then go respawn and get back into it.

 

For the Milsim side of things if its a rifle take it if its a pistol then dont as the docu file thing that sledge posted above shows not even a magnum will penetrate your gonna give them a sore head and possibly knock em out but not a kill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unless I'm using a pistol chambered in 7.62x25mm.