NRA video on the UK

[mower]

I believe all of these are de facto banned in Australia and quite a lot of other countries, "for lack of legitimate use". You tell me my guns don't have a legitimate use and I say no hobby equipment in the world has a "legitimate use". You don't need to collect stamps, so it doesn't have a legitimate defence either, does it?

 

-Sale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

these weapons are not defacto banned in Australia they are banned period because a deranged man called Martin Bryant went out and legally bought an AR15 and an SLR, he then used these and other weapons procured during his rampage to kill 35 people and wound 18 others.

 

Port Arthur massacre

 

If you would like to read that link i think you will find that a preatty compelling argument for legislation when in a peaceful developed country like australia a deranged man can buy extreamly powerful weapons and kill so many people before he was killed.

 

and if you would like to bring forward the argument that someone their with their own gun could have stopped him, well that was legal at the time aswell and i'm affraid it simply wasnt an effective deterent or tragically an effective end to that incident.

 

Note: this incident is also quite odd... it seems strange that a man who is undeniably insane (just read the article...) could kill 35 people with extreamly accurate rifle fire when he by some accounts couldnt even dress himself

 

just thought i'd add that

 

anyway in conclusion the tightening of legislation here made a repeat of such an act impossible, at least by a man as unstable as bryant, because legally you would have to be a qualified and competant person to own even a semi-automatic pistol here. illegally i, doubt a man of his state could procure weapons on the black market in Australia (which has been proven by recent police raids to be prolific) due to the secretive nature of such things.

 

and thanks steal bomber for clarifying that for me, i'm preatty bad at that

[Sale]

these weapons are not defacto banned in Australia they are banned period because  a deranged man called Martin Bryant went out and legally bought an AR15 and an SLR, he then used these and other weapons procured during his rampage to kill 35 people and wound 18 others.

 

Port Arthur massacre

 

If you would like to read that link i think you will find that a preatty compelling argument for legislation when in a peaceful developed country like australia a deranged man can buy extreamly powerful weapons and kill so many people before he was killed.

I find it more like a compelling argument for improving mental care for the youth. There was a Finnish young deranged man a few years ago, who blew himself and a few other people up in a shopping mall. The illegal status of explosives did not stop him, so should we ban chemistry studies now? Restrict public access to the internet? Restrict chemistry discussions on forums?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petri_Gerdt

 

and if you would like to bring forward the argument that someone their with their own gun could have stopped him, well that was legal at the time aswell and i'm affraid it simply wasnt an effective deterent or tragically an effective end to that incident.

As far as I know, carrying weapons for self-defence was not legal in Australia even at that time. In (US) states where people do carry weapons for self-defence, there are by far less shootings in public places, and I already named a specific case where an armed person actually stopped a school shooter from causing further casualties.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6762457.stm

 

This man could very well be alive, if he had been armed. The gun ban certainly didn't stop the criminal from packing a piece.

 

the tightening of legislation here made a repeat of such an act impossible

Just as impossible as it is for a fox to catch the rabbit, when the latter has its head in the bush. It only takes a single devoted insane person to prove you wrong. The potential definitely is there, whether you like it or not.

 

at least by a man as unstable as bryant, because legally you would have to be a qualified and competant person to own even a semi-automatic pistol here. illegally i, doubt a man of his state could procure weapons on the black market in Australia (which has been proven by recent police raids to be prolific) due to the secretive nature of such things.

Now that's just pure speculation. That single case happened and is gone now. No two cases are the same. If he'd be unable to make contacts with the black market to get weapons, how did he manage to go through the Australian legal purchase system then? As I've understood, semiautomatic rifles weren't sold over the counter with no questions asked in the mid-nineties.

 

What is the value of the increasing number of people getting killed each year, a trend that unfortunately seems to correlate with the gun ban? Surely one dead person a week for a year is just as big a loss, as 52 persons in one incident? It's not like human life has a shelf-life, and if people are getting killed one by one then it's somehow less worse than a massacre, which are single incidents over the time scale of several decades!

 

Australia's homicide rate was declining for 20 years, but that curve turned into an ascending one after the ban. Even if guns never decreased crime, the ban sure isn't helping either.

 

-Sale

[PILMAN]

I thought the point Mower was trying to make was that lax laws in a violent country create a higher level of violence.

 

Unfortunately, the only way to verify this would be to relax any firearm controls and see how many extra people get shot.

For example, over here, in the UK, we have the VCRA because of the rise in crimes involving replica weapons.

I'm sure you'd agree that some of those criminals would have obtained a real firearm instead, if it was easier to do so.

 

The other important thing about culture is it doesn't just apply to criminals.

Even if firearm laws were more relaxed over here I doubt you'd get people buying guns for their nightstand or applying for CC licenses.

Not too sure why but most brit's just don't think about guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What about South Africa? Sure Apartheid was a bad period but the crime was much much lower and it was a gun owners paradise (if you were white that is), once the ANC came in control and banned firearms, they required anyone owning a gun to register it and the number of permits gets fewer every year so the number of legal guns are going down yet the murder rate is very high (amongst the highest in the world). The laws there really suck too, someone was posting on the forums how they had their gun stolen from their safe and the government revoked his gun license so he couldn't purchase a gun ever again. People that are shooting in self defense are being set up for murder there. What is the murder rate in european countries with lax laws vs those without lax laws?

 

 

Also on port arthur, when you could own guns at the time were you allowed to open carry or conceal? Were guns really ever popular in Australia? I've heard mixed opinions from Aussies about Port Arthur, some going as far as to say it was a conspiracy and compare it to the JFK assassination

[PILMAN]

What about South Africa? Sure Apartheid was a bad period but the crime was much much lower and it was a gun owners paradise (if you were white that is), once the ANC came in control and banned firearms, they required anyone owning a gun to register it and the number of permits gets fewer every year so the number of legal guns are going down yet the murder rate is very high (amongst the highest in the world). The laws there really suck too, someone was posting on the forums how they had their gun stolen from their safe and the government revoked his gun license so he couldn't purchase a gun ever again. People that are shooting in self defense are being set up for murder there. What is the murder rate in european countries with lax laws vs those without lax laws?

Also on port arthur, when you could own guns at the time were you allowed to open carry or conceal? Were guns really ever popular in Australia? I've heard mixed opinions from Aussies about Port Arthur, some going as far as to say it was a conspiracy and compare it to the JFK assassination

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I must say this image is rather disturbing.

 

[Cyber Soldier]

that's about 6 years old and were up for under a month after being described as big-brotherish

[Xaccers]

In other words, we are the militia. I see this as the trump card for proving why we, as citizens, need firearms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We chose to have the Queen instead.

Hence why America has more headshot deaths from people picking up a handgun instead of the phone when called late at night.

Just one stern look from her and even Chuck Norris would be crying home to mummy.

 

This is what any goverment is up against:

 

 

Participating in a minute's silence for those who lost their lives on 7/7

You don't mess with the Queen or her subjects like that, it's just, well, rude for starters.

[Stealthbomber]

I must say this image is rather disturbing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure the artist would be pleased you feel that way.

 

It was part of a series of posters that all had dramatical overtones.

One, for example, was done in a classical "When Mars Attacks!!!!" style, another was done in an "Elvis Movie" style etc.

 

You didn't think it was for real did you?

 

Boy are Americans obtuse at times.

[Chimpy]

Hence why America has more headshot deaths from people picking up a handgun instead of the phone when called late at night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Is that actually true?

 

I mean I've never pulled a trigger to answer the phone before!

[PILMAN]

I'm sure the artist would be pleased you feel that way.

 

It was part of a series of posters that all had dramatical overtones.

One, for example, was done in a classical "When Mars Attacks!!!!" style, another was done in an "Elvis Movie" style etc.

 

You didn't think it was for real did you?

 

Boy are Americans obtuse at times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Looks legit to me, that TFL website appears to be the metro system. Did the metro system do this advertisement as a joke?

[Skarclaw]

It wasn't a joke, it was done in that kind of retro 50's vision of the future, not serious, but not a joke either, juts a stylistic thing.

[PILMAN]

It wasn't a joke, it was done in that kind of retro 50's vision of the future, not serious, but not a joke either, juts a stylistic thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Reminds me of a Orwellian society or something.

[Skarclaw]

Thats the point. Re-read Stealthbomber's post.

[Sale]

It's just a poster, lose the tin-foil lining in your helmet. What happens in practice is what counts. Arguing over a piece of paper on the wall derails us from the actual question at hand, which concerns the pieces of lead-shooting steel instruments in people's possession. As long as the latter is secured, I don't care what they put on the walls.

 

-Sale

[Xaccers]

 

Is that actually true?

 

I mean I've never pulled a trigger to answer the phone before!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, unfortunately it does happen, I used to have the stats, now way out of date and lost somewhere on the internet.

Unfortunately, while there may be criminal background checks, and psychiactric tests, in the US for gun ownership there isn't an intelligence requirement.

[Jagdraben]

Of course there isn't. For the same reason there is no intelligence requirement when you go to the polls or write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper.

[Xaccers]

Of course there isn't. For the same reason there is no intelligence requirement when you go to the polls or write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly, excluding people from doing something because they're of insufficient intelligence tends to upset people.

Strangely those same people tend to get upset when someone dies due actions taken by someone of insufficient intelligence.

 

Course, no one that I know of has ever been killed because they're a bit thick when voting or writing a letter.

[Chimpy]

I can't find one story of someone shooting themselves in the head thinking their gun was a telephone.

 

Seems Darwin award worthy though!

 

Plus I don't think idiocy with dangerous tools is the sole preserve of the mentally slow.

[alastairthegreat]

a dissarmed country??

an absolute ban on handguns??

 

my trip to the gun club tonight to fire a revolver says otherwise

[Xaccers]

I can't find one story of someone shooting themselves in the head thinking their gun was a telephone.

 

Seems Darwin award worthy though!

 

Plus I don't think idiocy with dangerous tools is the sole preserve of the mentally slow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was back during the BSE crisis, when people were trying to put things in persepective, such as 11 people the year before died in underwear related accidents, but you don't get people panicing about knickers.

So over 10 years ago.

I've tried finding it again since and had no luck.

[Insanejoe]

Exactly, excluding people from doing something because they're of insufficient intelligence tends to upset people.

Strangely those same people tend to get upset when someone dies due actions taken by someone of insufficient intelligence.

 

Course, no one that I know of has ever been killed because they're a bit thick when voting or writing a letter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Intelligence tests for guns doesn't seem to me to be a good idea. IQ tests and the like don't test for mechanical knowledge and common sense, the two main areas of importance for operating a firearm.

 

I've had friends in school that score far below the average score on state testing on the like but can work on and drive cars better then those who score high. Or know more about firearms and proper safe use then those who score high.

 

You would need some sort of firearm proficiency test rather then an intelligence one, knowing algebra won't help you work a firearm.

[Sledge]

Course, no one that I know of has ever been killed because they're a bit thick when voting or writing a letter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People are dying because some idiots voted Dubya and Bliar into power.

 

And I noticed a former boxer was shot in the face after asking someone to put their cigarette out the other day. Reassuring to know that criminals can obtain firearms, but the law-abiding are defenceless.

 

[Jagdraben]

Course, no one that I know of has ever been killed because they're a bit thick when voting or writing a letter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As Sledge mentioned: People cast votes for Bush and Blair and now people are dead. Similarly, people frequently use words to enflame racist sentiment... and I probably shouldn't really have to tell you about how many people have died because of that.

 

IIRC, the Danes are among the most recent to have earned the distinct honor of getting people killed because of something they wrote: In this case, a cartoon mocking Muslim extremists.

[Stealthbomber]

And I noticed a former boxer was shot in the face after asking someone to put their cigarette out the other day. Reassuring to know that criminals can obtain firearms, but the law-abiding are defenceless.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm pretty sure lots of people also weren't shot the other day because criminals couldn't get hold of sufficient weapons too.

[Sale]

I'm pretty sure lots of people also weren't shot the other day because criminals couldn't get hold of sufficient weapons too.

Criminals in the UK are as able to get a hold of weapons as they were before. The ban hasn't changed that.

 

Xaccers: What people say and write gets them killed or at least threatened seriously all the time. Think Theo Van Gogh, Pim Fortuyn, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie and so on. If their freedom of speech and opinions were restricted, a lot less people would killed. Also if Jyllands Posten would have had a pre-censorship authority checking what they publish, the Muhammed Cartoons wouldn't have been published in that magazine, and it wouldn't have ended up as riots all over the islamic world and a bunch of people getting killed.

 

Surely restrictions to freedom of speech and opinion should be applied. It could save lives!

 

Finland with a population of a bit over 5M has 400 traffic casualties each year. That's more than one per day! A drivers licence is clearly not a tight enough sieve to root out people who drive drunk and recklessly. People should apply a permit for each car they buy, and present a legitimate use (such as motorsports or if you need a car because you're a taxi driver or such), and not be able to buy a car just because they want one. Sport drivers should store their cars in locked warehouses at the racing track, and all cars should have an alcometric lock to prevent a drunk person from starting and driving the car. Sounds fun, doesn't it? Worth it because it would save a few lives?

 

Just admit it: Restrictions are fine as long as they don't concern things that are important to you.

 

-Sale

[Stealthbomber]

Criminals in the UK are as able to get a hold of weapons as they were before. The ban hasn't changed that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but you have no way of knowing if there'd be even more shootings if guns were still legal.

 

It's like suggesting that the driving test should be abolished because people who've passed the driving test still have crashes.