Any recognize this from somewhere?

[wjkuleck]

John Milius is one Hollywood writer and director that works to get it right, e.g., The Wind and the Lion. Heck, even Dirty Harry (Milius wrote the script) gets it mostly right.

 

I'm not sure just how authentic the RPG ambush in Clear and Present Danger is, but it sure worked for me. Saw an interview with Milius a few days ago where he described the process by which he came up with the idea, which wasn't in the book.

 

Regards,

 

Walt

[wolfspider]

I'm sorry Guzzi but I disagree, I can understand you don't go in for Hollywood and wouldn't enjoy the film, but Heat won awards from the NRA for the most realistic gun fight committed to celluloid.

 

The firearms officer on that movie was a former S.A.S soldier and taught them to use pepper potting, fire and movement techniques as used by the Military, so not quite total Hollywood BS.

 

Although you do have to question the continuity of how a gang of professional thieves would have come by those techniques

[Mikeiw]

Just in case anyone's missed it... here it is in all its glory on youtube

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J7exsa3zXI8

[sekiryu]

So Guzzi, how many firefights have you been in? And airsoft doesn't count

[T3CH]

Although you do have to question the continuity of how a gang of professional thieves would have come by those techniques

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Erm you've heard about the amount of militia groups and just general military fanatics in america right?

 

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that maybe the crims got trained up to minimise the likelihood of dieing in a gunfight? Or (more likely) to maximise the possiblity of escape. Remember De Niro's character was 'not going back inside' And Neil McCauley as De Niro plays him is a VERY smart calculating cookie (up until his heart gets involved anyway), who would DEFINITELY get trained to enable an easier escape.

 

But yeah the perfect headshot after sprinting about what 1-1 1/2 miles is BS. Tho not outside the realm of possiblity for a trained soldier, for a 40 something cop, more used to carrying a sidearm..............

[Yeager]

Erm you've heard about the amount of militia groups and just general military fanatics in america right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Everyone 18-45 is considered part of the militia here..

[Fuser]

As a movie, I guess its OK.  But when folk start saying "Oh its all so realistic", I call shenanigans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's quite realistic and well done. Almost all the cops are using handguns (save for Pacino and his team), and they're stationary whereas the robbers are constantly changing cover. Pacino would be able to engage them with the FNC but if you pay attention he's always either out of range or his line of fire is obstructed by pedestrians. And also it's not like the robbers are bulletproof, two of them are killed.

 

In the end, it's Hollywood. Maybe the cops would've had better firearms in actuality, and maybe the robbers had a nearly unlimited supply of ammo...but it's just a movie. Everything that was unrealistic in the scene mattered very little; they made it real in the places that it needed to be real.

 

I also suggest that you watch the whole thing, it's a great movie.

[PlasticMag]

Just want to point out - Val Kilmer's combat reload is shown, as a perfect example of how to do so, in police training. It was reported as rumor, and it is actually fact. I can't believe I forgot to bring that up.

 

Further reading -

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Guns_of_HEAT.htm

[Stealthbomber]

I thought the shootout in Heat made for a great movie spectacle.

 

A realistic cop movie, where they spend 3 hours pointing a speed gun at traffic and then go and arrest a couple of junkie shoplifters wouldn't really grab the audience IMO.

[kevdude61]

Yes, a great movie, but nothing more. I really don't care for the realism in it. But that's just me.

[Connery]

There's realism in movies?!

[Hewes]

yeah, sure there is realism in movies, where do you think resident evil came from? there WAS a zombie outbreak in Racoon City! J/K

 

i think that most movies have elements of realism, but all in all, the films are there to make the hero look good, thats why in the film commando, arnie doesn/t run out of ammo!

[TwinTurboCH]

Ah, I was right then.  Thought he was an undercover cop.

 

And Ritifo...sadly, I cant help it.  Call me wierd, but Im a member of the Church of Reality   Anything that doesnt conform to it is anaethema!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In which case, avoid all fims ever made ever.

 

What a silly statement. How many films actually follow real life? I can't think of one that doesn't use a bit of poetic licence to convey the story a bit more. Thats like trying to analyse car chases for realism. The nature of movies is that they cannot be totally realistic and anyone who thinks 'if it ain't real i ain't watchin' is just anal

[Chris North]

Further reading -

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Guns_of_HEAT.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Two of the villains are packing Shorty M-16s with the 4 position stocks. ... (read about why I don’t like it here)"

Haha!

 

yeah, sure there is realism in movies, where do you think resident evil came from? there WAS a zombie outbreak in Racoon City! J/K !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, one might point out that even the Resi-Evil movies don't portray the games as well as they should.

[Hewes]

yeah, the games are good, and so are the movies, but most movies dont portray games like they should, and vice versa

[Fuser]

I blew $21 today thanks to this thread...

 

[wolfspider]

A realistic cop movie, where they spend 3 hours pointing a speed gun at traffic and then go and arrest a couple of junkie shoplifters wouldn't really grab the audience IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why am I thinking of Hot Fuzz

 

Games to movies are a difficult subject to master, the experiences are completely different. Just taking Tomb Raider as a case in point, Lara spends most of her time wondering round empty tombs that are only inhabited by unfriendly Wolves, Bears, Bats and Rats, figuring out puzzles left by long dead civilisations. She has no accompying team and the majority of dialogue is either her grunting (Although some people quite like this ) or screaming as she plummets towards her imminent death. Not quite the perfect elements for a blockbusting movie but they made not one but two anyway and they were both *beep*.

 

As I said before a gaming experience is an individual one and as such is hard to reproduce on celluloid, just think of some of your own memorable gaming experiences and see if they make good silver screen moments? A film maker can only use the obvious elements from a game to make refrence to it's console/pc source and thats why I think they will never manage to do them justice.

[Moriquende]

"Two of the villains are packing  Shorty M-16s with the 4 position stocks. ... (read about why I don’t like it here)"

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Just as a side note, that guy is weird.

 

"The AR-15 sucks by design. If you lay out the blue prints of the rifle you discover that the design is fundamentally flawed. The design uses tolerances that are way too tight for a combat weapon."

 

Since when was tight tolerances bad for a combat weapon?

[Donut]

I'm no expert, but any machinery that has a tight or low tolerance are prone to breakage or malfunctions than those with higher tolerances.

[Kraut]

Big argument over whether the M16 or AK is better, blah blah blah.

[wjkuleck]

Just as a side note, that guy is weird.

 

"The AR-15 sucks by design.  If you lay out the blue prints of the rifle you discover that the design is fundamentally flawed.  The design uses tolerances that are way too tight for a combat weapon."

 

Since when was tight tolerances bad for a combat weapon?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well...when John Garand went from the T2 to the US Semiautomatic Rifle, Cal..30, M1, he decided to loosen the tolerances so much that the only time the bolt is firmly secured is when it is closed and locked on a cartridge.

 

The FN-FAL had sand-jamming problems, largely solved by adding grooves to the bolt carrier to carry the sand away. You'll see them referred to as "sand cuts."

 

Kalashnikov emulated Garand in a number of areas, among them the very loose bolt carier and bolt until the bolt is down and locked on a cartridge.

 

THat having been said, close tolerances per se aren't necessarily a deal-killer for a combat weapon. It all depends on whether schmutz has someplace to go.

 

Mr. Ogre certainly has a, well, strong opionion about the AR-15-type rifle. Well, guess what, folks? We sell a lot of them every year; many get hard use.

 

And they aren't jamming in the field.

 

The AR-15-type rifle has to be made right, with the right components; such an AR-15-type rifle will run all the day long. Is it one I'd take into combat were I privileged to serve, and had a choice? Probably not; I'd prefer an M14, or perhaps a FAL. The AKs are basically unstoppable, but their whippy barrel and lousy ammo (lousy in the sense that it's not made to be consistent) compromise accuracy more than I woudl like. You can do good work with the M14 and its iron sights out to 500 or 600 metres; the FAL is nearly as good, particularly the new DSA productions.

 

Enjoy this picture of an AR-15 Model 01 "reproduction":

 

 

Best regards,

 

Walt

[sekiryu]

Maybe the M16s aren't jamming in the field, but the M4s sure are

[wjkuleck]

I'm no expert, but any machinery that has a tight or low tolerance are prone to breakage or malfunctions than those with higher tolerances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well...actually, it depends. Try increasing the piston clearances (or the main bearing clearances) in your car's engine and see how long it lasts.

 

It's really not appropriate to consider generalizations in these matters, as loose or tight is better or worse only in a context .

 

Respectfully,

 

Walt

[wjkuleck]

Big argument over whether the M16 or AK is better, blah blah blah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Argument here is unnecessary, as one is comparing apples to kumquats. The two systems were designed with two different purposes in mind; the AK, as a bullet dispenser so rugged even a goatherder from the Caucasus couldn't break it. The M16, much more of a "rifleman's rifle," with decent sights and much higher accuracy potential.

 

Urban warfare? You might want to pick the AK. Need to slap down someone on the next mountain across the valley? Fit a Mk 12 Mod 0 upper to your M16, and achieve lethal hits at 600 meters—with the first shot. I wouldn't take it mud-wrestling, though, just as I wouldn't expect success at 600m with an AK, even an FPL variant.

 

Respectfully,

 

Walt

[wjkuleck]

Maybe the M16s aren't jamming in the field, but the M4s sure are

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll be leading an M4 course in the next month or two for our local PD, so we'll see.

 

Regards,

 

Walt