Copying Paintball Designs

[mcnuggets]

Is it going to last though? The longevity is primarily what I'm looking at. With the side benefits of on the fly adjustable velocity and ROF and an immediate trigger response.

 

If anyone has ever played paintbal you might be familar with the Tippman 98. This gun was utterly undestructable. I mean you could have really trashed this gun. Run it over, throw it in a lake, chew through paintballs and make a mess yet it would still keep on firing. It was the AK47 of the paintbal world. I am looking for something similar for airsoft. That's what I'm mostly getting at.

 

edit: I wanted to address this point

then to pay for insane amounts of gas every weekend for a year.

 

I don't use more than 300bb's per game usually, but "milsim" type guys are in the minority, most people use tons of bb's and would have to sell their cars to pay the gas bill.

 

I used to own a classic (Kokusai CAR-15) and it was lucky if I ran through my 20oz CO2 bottle. It usually lasted me two skirmishes and I was a bit heavy on the trigger. (The BV system that it uses with its air assisted magazines isn't the most efficent system either.) 20oz of CO2 usually ran me about 5USD.

[bah]

i for one can say that the opinion of mcnugget's that airsoft for what ever reasons he has needs to be more like paint ball is not shared by all of us in the usa.

i have nothing else to say on the topic.

[HeartBreaker1317]

If anyone has ever played paintbal you might be familar with the Tippman 98. This gun was utterly undestructable. I mean you could have really trashed this gun. Run it over, throw it in a lake, chew through paintballs and make a mess yet it would still keep on firing. It was the AK47 of the paintbal world. I am looking for something similar for airsoft. That's what I'm mostly getting at.

 

Not so. I had one of these ((A hire at a birthday party)) which basically had a low pressure explosion whilst I was using it. The problem was that repeated exposure to wet and cold had caused fractures in the body of the gun ((Water expanding when freezing, melting which leaves a bigger hole for the next time, repeat)) and the gas leaked out in a rapid - though fortunately non-injury-leaving - manner.

 

Now, I could just chalk this up to environment, but a similar thing happened to a friend of mine ((before I got him a Marui Thompson for Christmas a few years back - now, as he's an avid WWII buff and milsimmer, airsoft is his hobby)). His had fallen into the back of his car when the aforementioned Jeep went over a small drop. Not an hour later when he arrived at the skirmish the thing blew itself up, during chronoing.

 

--------

 

I'd also like to address the reliability issue. If you're going to have an external gas rig, and play like I play ((Which is to say - down in the mud and muck footing your way about through brambles, thickets, and brush of all sort)) then this isn't going to give the reliability of a self-contained unit. The hose is going to be punctured, pulled out, ripped, and probably be exposed to heavy fire ((And lord knows that the most fragile piece of kit you've got always seems to have a magical bb magnetism imbued in it)). Any and all of this is, to me, unacceptable.

[mcnuggets]

Not so. I had one of these ((A hire at a birthday party)) which basically had a low pressure explosion whilst I was using it. The problem was that repeated exposure to wet and cold had caused fractures in the body of the gun ((Water expanding when freezing, melting which leaves a bigger hole for the next time, repeat)) and the gas leaked out in a rapid - though fortunately non-injury-leaving - manner.

 

Now, I could just chalk this up to environment, but a similar thing happened to a friend of mine ((before I got him a Marui Thompson for Christmas a few years back - now, as he's an avid WWII buff and milsimmer, airsoft is his hobby)). His had fallen into the back of his car when the aforementioned Jeep went over a small drop. Not an hour later when he arrived at the skirmish the thing blew itself up, during chronoing.

 

Well they weren't invincible but you have to admit they stood up much better than most.

 

I'd also like to address the reliability issue. If you're going to have an external gas rig, and play like I play ((Which is to say - down in the mud and muck footing your way about through brambles, thickets, and brush of all sort)) then this isn't going to give the reliability of a self-contained unit. The hose is going to be punctured, pulled out, ripped, and probably be exposed to heavy fire ((And lord knows that the most fragile piece of kit you've got always seems to have a magical bb magnetism imbued in it)). Any and all of this is, to me, unacceptable.

 

No, I'd have to disagree. I'd say the remote line stands up pretty well. I also get dirty when I play and I never really had an issue with it when I played with my old classic. It isn't as fragile as you would think.

[Boar]

no, you dont get it!! we dont want paintball designs or anything! Your only taking into account american ideas, yeh your american, but have a look at the url, its www.arniesairsoft.co.UK, UK stands for United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Great Britain is Scotland and England, Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland, therefore it should make sense that on a UK forum NOT AN AMERICAN FORUM!! you abide by:

 

1)the law of the UK

2)the Rules of the Forum you are on

3) COMMON SENSE!!!

 

im not sure what you understand of airsoft, i can see your from NY, from my understanding, aisoft is illegal in NY, so to you airsoft might be backyard skirmishes or paintball games with airsoft guns.

 

Oh *fruitcage* off. I love a bit of yank bashing as much as the next guy but that was really pointless.

[Pendra]

I wasn't talking about catastrophic faliure. I take my guns apart once in a while to check the gears, the piston, clean and re-grase etc. I like to do that even without real reason . A friend of mine had a TM G36c for around 3 years. It had never failed and was never taken into bits. Of course, it wasn't shooting 400 FPS.

On the other hand I've seen a lot of clone guns failing after little use. Especially after mindlessly stuffing an M120 springs into them.

The gas systems, I encountered so far, were much worse. The gas operated guns are not too popular around here. Also I think I heared one too many story about how the given gas gun failed them.

Finally I used a Tippman98 at a company team building day. It didn't blow up, but the accuracy was abysmal. The power output was fluctuating wildly. At one shot, it was doing 20m ballistic, at the next I had 30m range flat. If my AEG would do that I would burn it (or just simply get it fixed ). Luckily, everyone had the same problem, so it was just mildly annoying.

I don't like that kind of reliability, where the gun shoots like s**t, but still shoots.

[Stealthbomber]

Just read this thread from start to finish.

 

How silly.

Why on earth would I want to use any gun that requires me to buy gas to make it shoot rather than use a gun powered by something that comes out of my wall whenever I want it?

 

Snorkelman's pretty much condemned everything about this idea already. Paintball guns offer NOTHING of interest to airsofters. Recoil? Nope. Accuracy? Nope. Economy? Nope.

 

TBH, speaking as somebody who now fields an AEG with an AEP as a back-up, I'm interested in the TK M4. I'd like to shoot one to see what they're like.

It's easy for me to say I don't like the idea of an external gas tank but, TBH, that's not the whole truth.

The simple fact is that I have to buy gas and ensure I have it when I need it.

That's a PITA for me. And an expensive one too. For that reason, I just can't see myself buying a TK M4, however good it turns out to be. If it ever appears.

[AGuy]

Just read this thread from start to finish.

 

How silly.

Why on earth would I want to use any gun that requires me to buy gas to make it shoot rather than use a gun powered by something that comes out of my wall whenever I want it?

 

Snorkelman's pretty much condemned everything about this idea already. Paintball guns offer NOTHING of interest to airsofters. Recoil? Nope. Accuracy? Nope. Economy? Nope.

 

You could ask a surfer why he rides a wooden longboard rather than a fiberglass shortboard. Its just preference...

People see CO2 and they ooh and ahh and run away in any game; you are going back to roots that few airsofters realize or know; it is something different which I always prefer; different options are available than AEG's and AEG's do sound like ######. You can customize classic relatively easily with the ROF, LRB, range wise, fps. And I have never seen an MG42 aeg or w2000 aeg.

 

Do you use a gas pistol or an aep? the same theories could be applied to that.

 

I vote this topic to be closed because it is a never ending argument

 

[Filip von Izabelin]

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper.php?i..._Special%20AEGs

 

AEG mg42

 

I do use a gas pistol, but I wouldn't trust it to be my primary, more so in winter. Even TM Colt's aren't that reliable.

[AGuy]

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper.php?i..._Special%20AEGs

 

AEG mg42

 

I do use a gas pistol, but I wouldn't trust it to be my primary, more so in winter. Even TM Colt's aren't that reliable.

 

Classics can use HPA which I guess makes them better than gas pistols in that category

 

well for anyone in a warmer climate, why do you use a gas pistol when you could use an aep

[mcnuggets]

Snorkelman's pretty much condemned everything about this idea already. Paintball guns offer NOTHING of interest to airsofters. Recoil? Nope. Accuracy? Nope. Economy? Nope.

 

Recoil?

 

Okay, I agree that an adapted paintball system will produce little recoil. Many of these systems were specifically designed to try and minimize recoil. However I don't think recoil is a strict preference amongst most airsofters. Recoil in and of itself comes with its own costs that many (in the non-milsim crowd specifically) might not be willing to pay. The accuracy is decreased by the vibrations. The gas consumed per shot increases. The gun becomes heavier with the addition of a reciprocating weight and the thicker housing needed to accommodate it. And the unit is more costly to produce because of the greater stresses produced by the reciprocating weight.

 

But even if recoil is desired the only realistic way of powering it is with gas. An electric system has neither the energy density nor an inexpensive way of transfering that energy onto a mass to produce recoil. There will be no appreciable recoil in AEG’s anytime soon.

 

Accuracy?

A gas gun can probably be made just as accurate and consistent as an AEG (especially if using HPA.)

 

Economy?

For the propellant CO2 or HPA is neither expensive nor difficult to find. Stores like Walmart or ######’s (which you can find practically anywhere) sell CO2 for a very reasonable price. And the recent trend here in the states is to have games hosted at paintball fields which further simplifies finding a source for air. Paintballers have to deal with all of this too yet they do fine.

 

Also how much gas is really going to be used throughout the course of a year? $50 worth maybe?

 

And the wear and tear of parts also needs to be taken into consideration. Gas guns will have fewer costs from part replacements than AEG’s.

 

 

I don’t think you’re taking some other advantages into consideration.

 

Semiautomatic only use is the law in some countries (such as Germany and New Zealand) or has separate legal restrictions from fully automatic guns (I think this is true for the UK). An AEG isn’t ideal for semiautomatic use due to delay caused by the initial windup. It can also place additional stresses on the system because it was designed with fully automatic use in mind. A gas system, especially one adapted from paintball, would be better in this area. A paintball system is generally designed to be semiautomatic only to begin with. Also the trigger delay is substanially less. (This is also useful in a fully automatic mode. In an airsoft skirmish a player aquires a target, aims, presses the trigger and then a BB exits the barrel. If the time between trigger depression to the BB exiting the barrel is too long the aim might be thrown off from the player moving the gun subtlely. A quicker delay time translate into a more accurate rifle. It also reduces the chance of a shot being “dodged” compared to an AEG where the opposing player may hear the initial windup.) But back on point, for people who prefer semiautomatic, for legal or other reasons, a gas rifle I’ve been describing might be the best option.

 

Versatility comes with adjustable velocity and ROF’s. I mean theoritically a gun like this can have velocities ranging from pet training to indoor to outdoor to plinking. (Although admittedly this advantage is less significant in countries with velocitiy ceilings.) Now I hear retorts to this saying that on an AEG the velocity can be adjusted just as well. But this requires opening up the gearbox and changing the spring. No easy feat especially for a novice. Prowins and other detachable gearboxes can be used but they are expensive in terms of price and the time it takes to assemble and adjust them. Also you have to have a unique spring for different velocities. ROF’s, which can have a real competitive advantage in a skirmish, can also theoretically be adjusted. Also a gun can potentially be programmed to have a realistic ROF.

 

There’s the aesthetic appeal of the sound report which has to be taken into consideration.

 

There’s the longevity of a gas gun. There are no electric airsoft equivalent of the Tippman 98.

 

The novelty of having a gas gun which may appeal to some people.

 

Paintballers and other people who may have been turned off by AEG's might consider buying a gas gun like this.

 

The utter lack of innovation on the part of airsoft companies may indicate a technical ceiling for electric gearboxes. The potential for improvement may be greater with gas.

 

Lastly even if you hate gas guns more choice for the consumer is always better. More airsofters are available to play with. More fields are created. More companies will be created to accomadate these airsofters. Prices will come down through economies of scale.

 

 

 

I say that airsoft companies should use paintball designs not because I hold some ridiculous notion that airsoft needs to be more like paintball, like some people suggested, but because it is a shortcut into the gas world. Most of the leg work has already been done years ago and an adaption is all that would be needed.

[Jaager]

These are the rules, look at rule no 2 on muzzel velocity!!

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...p?showtopic=386

 

your arguments been proven to be rubbish, now why cant a mod close this thread it is pointless!

[snorkelman]

except no one was discussing the drozd on the basis of muzzle velocity merely on the basis of adapting its mechanism to arsoft use same as the suggestion of adapting paintball mechanisms I dont consider either to be viable platforms for a 1 joule gas powered airsoft gun but I dont beleive discussing either in that context is outside the rules

 

nor do I consider an adapted paintball mechanism inside an airsoft gun to fire BBs would have folks suddenly overcome with an urge to wear pink spandex

 

I just dont feel they offer anything that an existing airsoft gas mechanism couldn't and in many respects offer less. Nor do they allow the breeching of some sort of AEG gearbox desgn ceiling - considerign manufacturers arent willing to even push the existing design by addign features that CAN be implementded on it (ie burst modes, adjustable spring guides, quick change sprngs etc on all systems currently available) then I dont beleive the chances of them implementing an entire gas system in order to acheive them is on their agenda.

 

At best even assuming adapted paintball designs offered some sort of answer (which I dont beleive they do) it would be answers to questions that manufacturers arent even asking themselves in the first place..

[AGuy]

At best even assuming adapted paintball designs offered some sort of answer (which I dont beleive they do) it would be answers to questions that manufacturers arent even asking themselves in the first place..

 

That is the complete opposite of what is true. Manufactuers originally created paintball like guns in the first place, which is what this whole argument has turned into

 

[snorkelman]

That is the complete opposite of what is true. Manufactuers originally created paintball like guns in the first place, which is what this whole argument has turned into

 

At best even assuming adapted paintball designs offered some sort of answer (which I dont beleive they do) it would be answers to questions that manufacturers arent even asking themselves in the first place..

 

no current manufacturer is making any sort of real attempt to push the envelope of the AEG gearbox Thus they arent asking questions of the AEG, thus they have no need for answers in the form of adapted modern paintball designs, to provide solutions to those currently non existent questions (that they arent asking!)

 

My points remain the same as before:

 

1 High velocity paintball designs do not scale well to airsoft use - particularly reciporcating designs.

 

2 Solenoid triggered designs such as the Drozd are relatively simple but do not offer any recoil.I personally find the drozd a very boring gun to shoot. It has some fun aspects over an AEG but its still 'close but no cigar'

 

3 The additional features on offer in terms of burst modes etc could be implemented within an AEG contex - the fact they havent thus far isnt because its impossible due to limitations of the AEG mechbox, that manufacturers need some sort of new ideas stolen from ongoing paintball developement in order to spark them off in that direction.

 

Its simply because they cost money to implement and add to the unit cost of each gun. And manufacturers arent willing to spend it.

 

So if the penny pinching miserly bastards that constitute major airsoft manufacturers wont even spend the (relatively) minimal outlay required to add ratchet based mechanical burstmodes to their existing AEG designs, then no one is going to seriously convince me that they'd spend the greater levels of cash neccessary to implement microprocessor controlled burst units and a completely new paintball inspired redesign.

 

4 At a user level next to nobody is going to be tempted away from the plug and play simplicity of AEGs without some sort of major selling point to justify the additional hassle of sourcing maintaining and filling a rig.

 

Nine times out of ten when Im asked about JACS etc from folks tempted to give an external rig a go, on basis of a cheap JAC they've seen for sale, the very first thing Im asked is whats the recoil like. Soon as the response is there is none on the standard BV JAC they generally lose interest rapidly, some start lookign at escort designs others go back to AEG land.

 

So while a recoiling system might tempt mainstream AEG using folks, a non blow back design is certainly not going to do it. And without some sort of mass market interest no manufacture is going to seriously consider implementing one (and if they do its not going to be based around an adapted modern paintball design when theres already gas airsoft designs to chose from).

 

From that point of view trying to downplay the need for recoil in an airsoft gas gun is a non starter.

 

Above all else there are already existing airsoft recoil based designs that fit the airsoft requirements of a gas blow back system without the level of adaptation that current paintball designs would require. For a thread that starts out with the premise of 'folks shouldnt reinvent the wheel' its OP does nothing but suggest manufacturers do precisely that, by switchign from aEG to gas by taking a paintball design over an existign gas airsoft mech and by rescaling every aspect of that paintball design so that it delivers airsoft comatible feeding requirements, dimensional constraints, operating pressures and typical output velocities whilst continuing to operate as reliably as it did in its paintball past.

 

The escort system wouldnt require a lot of work to turn it into a decent system for folks who are willing to go with an external rig. Even with its current faults its almost as efficient at firing 6mm BBs per 12g Co2 caplet as an adapted Drozd is when bored up to 6mm and detuned to airsoft power levels.

 

The escort blowback system isnt a free lunch over the drozd NBB design but the use of the exhaust from the blowback cycle to propel the BB (rather than using gas for firing BB and more gas for cycling the action) means it actually runs it pretty close.

 

If anything money would be better spent developing better on-gun storage and pre regulation solutions for the existing airsoft blowback designs, to improve the chances of them getting more widespread adoption from those that cant see past the hose, than adapting paintball designs to airsoft use.

 

A micro regulator and high grade buffer tube gas solution suitable for M4s or a similar system for AKs making use of the upper receiver and running HPA or CO2 to cut out the hose would do a lot more for acceptance than any number of electronically controlled burst modes fittend onto an external rig powered gun.

 

You then have a reasonably decent sized reservoir to power the gun from rather than a mags worth of green, far greater temperature capabilities and the bility to either carry a spare reservoir to hot swap in game or at very least recharge from say a 20g CO2 or 70CuInch HPA tank the player has left sat at the safe zone. Critically you have a nice easy transition for those who might be tempted later to give it a go with a proper external rig (as they'd already have most of the parts required and a gun capable of fitting them onto).

[AGuy]

At best even assuming adapted paintball designs offered some sort of answer (which I dont beleive they do) it would be answers to questions that manufacturers arent even asking themselves in the first place..

 

no current manufacturer is making any sort of real attempt to push the envelope of the AEG gearbox Thus they arent asking questions of the AEG, thus they have no need for answers in the form of adapted modern paintball designs, to provide solutions to those currently non existent questions (that they arent asking!)

 

 

Not a GBB gearbox design but same gas main-arm weapon discussion

 

Western Arms M4A1

 

http://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=en&amp...Bm4a1%26hl%3Den

 

what say you?

[Gliderrider]

Right, Its time I put my ten pence worth in.

AEG vs Gas

I shoot both Gas and AEG main arms, AEG's are good all year round, Gas is only reliable in summer. The only bonus is the recoil/blowback system.

 

AEP vs GBB

Again I shoot both the AEP is as good as the GBB, both are good as sidearms, but I wouldnt choose a gas pistol as a primary in winter, or an AEP if i could possibly use a GBB(again its the recoil)

 

Gas vs CO2

Unless you use a regulator to take the PSI down you will not have a power source that is SAFE to use in airsoft. CO2 is roughly 4 times the presure of Greengas. So even with a recoil mech taking half the power, you would still be using a weapon that is both unsafe and ilegal to use in airsoft in the uk. So if you do use a regulator, why not just use green?

 

The only use I can see for CO2/ Paintball designs is in the CO2 Recoil mech that is a bolt on for an AEG, and personally I wouldnt recomend it. Paintball has to use more power, because the round is bigger and heavyer, we use a 6or 8mm BB, weighing les than half a gram.

[snorkelman]

Not a GBB gearbox design but same gas main-arm weapon discussion

 

Western Arms M4A1

 

http://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=en&amp...Bm4a1%26hl%3Den

 

what say you?

 

 

I say your missing the point of the thread completely? That isnt an AEG manufacturer 'trying to push the capabilities of their designs who would be better doing so thru using an off the shelf adapted paintball design than putting more work into AEGs or old airsoft gas systems', is it? Nopes thats a longstanding conventional airsoft blowback system upscaled for assault rifle use being put on the market by an airsoft gas gun manufacturer.

 

Whereas the OP was suggesting that paintball designs were a better alternative for airsoft use than both the AEG mechbox and existing old fashioned airsoft gas designs. Different argument from simple 'AEG versus Gas Blow Back' one

 

If you read the thread you'ld see that the discussion wasnt should there or shouldnt there be gas guns (hell 90 percent of what I own is friggin gas guns) its wether digging thru a bunch of paintball designs brings anything worthwile to the party. The OP suggested that they're proven designs that they have minimal maintenance requirements are easier to strip than AEGs and can be hooked up with electronic triggers for burst etc.

 

I'd suggest that as alternatives to the current AEG designs of the big manufacs they are not going to attract any manufacturer interest whatsoever - the technologies and materials needed to produce them are not the ones those manufacs currently work with producing AEG mechboxes, the additional features are all at additional cost (which those same manufacs have shown no willinness to pay when it comes to their AEG mechboxes, even when the features would be viable for an AEG).

 

And as an alternative to AEGs for customers those recoilless modified paintball designs he suggested as the answer are not going to have them queing up in the sort of numbers that migth tempt manufacturers into a demand led adoption of that sort of technology. If theres any demand for gas in the mainstream airsoft assault rifle market its gas to allow for recoil.

 

As far as the WA itself goes I've yet to be convinced - its a gas in mag design relying on unregulated 134a or green gas neither of which are exactly temperature neutral and which lack the sort of spare pre-regulated pressure a decent regulated CO2 system enjoys to delay the effects of cooldown, using a blowback mechanism that isnt the most efficient. About the only thing it has goign for it over the one off Plum Projects, LA Studios etc designs is the fact that its being brought to market by a mainstream gas gun manufacturer so shouldnt cost three arms and a leg and might have better than a snowballs chance in hell of bearable spares availability.

[snorkelman]

Unless you use a regulator to take the PSI down you will not have a power source that is SAFE to use in airsoft. CO2 is roughly 4 times the presure of Greengas. So even with a recoil mech taking half the power, you would still be using a weapon that is both unsafe and ilegal to use in airsoft in the uk. So if you do use a regulator, why not just use green?

 

because unregulated green is outputing at same pressure as the gas itself is stored at you're teetering on the edge of cooldown the whole time Regulated CO2 is stored at 850 to 1000 PSI depending on temp and level of fill yet regulated output fed into a gun is typically at green gas pressures ie 130 PSI

 

Thus the demands your placing on the gas are at a ratio of 6 or 7 to 1 versus its stored pressure (capabilities) and cooldown associated with sustained fast release of the propellant is substantially delayed

 

ie the demand your placing on CO2 in that sort of setup is roughly equal to asking a 130 PSI green gas conatiner to supply you with a sustained miserly 20 PSI.

 

as an example hook a can of green up to an old classic gun via an oldschool adapter and it wont take long for the can to be freezing cold and pressure dropping off dramatically - attach a co2 caplet into a regulator and hook that up to same gun and it'll fire till the cows come home (well untill it exhausts the caplet of propellant) Pressure drop off will only really become noticeable when the content of the caplet has pretty much reduced itself to vapour - at which stage the last couple of shots will sputter and die.

 

Likewise as its starting out with a room temp pressure of around 850 PSI versus 130 PSI required output pressure, CO2 can cope with the ambient temperature falling far lower than green gas can.

 

eg By time green hits X degrees its dropped so much temperature that its no better than 134a at room temp, another few degrees and its significantly under 134a at room temp Whereas at that same temp CO2 has a pressure that is still suffciently high to offer a stored pressure of 400 to 500 PSI (not as good as at room temp but still 3 to 4 times its required output ratio). Thus regulated CO2 guns will happily operate at lower temps than a green gas gun

 

Go one stage further, take the same regulated rig and hook it into an HPA source rather than a CO2 one and you're taking cooldown and temperature pretty much out of the equation all together. HPA is not stored as a liquid and does not have a cooldown effect as its used It also has no real issue with dealing with sort of temperatures someone is likely to airsoft in.

[HeartBreaker1317]

But even if recoil is desired the only realistic way of powering it is with gas. An electric system has neither the energy density nor an inexpensive way of transfering that energy onto a mass to produce recoil. There will be no appreciable recoil in AEG’s anytime soon. *

 

I had a number of different ways to reply to this when I read it. Here are a few of them -

 

Tell that to Tokyo Marui - http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airs...il?prodID=23628

 

or

 

Have you not left your cave for the last few months - http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airs...il?prodID=23628

 

or

 

You're right, there won't be one soon, there's one now - http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airs...il?prodID=23628

 

Take your pick.

 

*Emphasis mine

[snorkelman]

key word there in what he said is appreciable Ive not seen a review of the TM yet that states the recoil is appreciable It certainly shuffles its bolt backwards and forwards but reviews comments thus far dont realy mention any appreciable kick, the guarder autoback bolt kits for the AK already pulled that bolt shuffle dance off (albeit maybe not as reliably as the TM will prove at doing it) .

 

Course proof of the pudding is in the eating and I cant say for sure without directly comparing to what Ive already got, but with it being a major part of the guns new features you'ld have thought folks would have made more mention of the shake rattle n roll aspect if it did have much going for it in that respect?

 

[Gliderrider]

because unregulated green is outputing at same pressure as the gas itself is stored at you're teetering on the edge of cooldown the whole time Regulated CO2 is stored at 850 to 1000 PSI depending on temp and level of fill yet regulated output fed into a gun is typically at green gas pressures ie 130 PSI

 

Thus the demands your placing on the gas are at a ratio of 6 or 7 to 1 versus its stored pressure (capabilities) and cooldown associated with sustained fast release of the propellant is substantially delayed

 

Sorry mate, BullS*** Baffles Brains. So what you are saying is, a CO2 Caplet fitted to a gas gun via an adapter/ regulator actually gives better longevity and sustained performance than green gas? without pushing you above site allowed limits, or any longterm damadge to a gun?

[snorkelman]

Yup if you regulate an 850 PSI gas down to 130 PSI and feed it into the gas mag of a pistol (eg a 12g CO2 caplet screwed onto a regulator thats attached to the mag by a hose, not just a magworth of 130 PSI vapour squirted directly into the mag thru a madbull grenade filler style adapter) then you'll get substantially more shots on a like for like basis than equivalent amount of green gas being fired at same 130 PSI pressure.

 

Gun isnt aware of any difference - its built to withstand 130 PSI of green gas and its being fed CO2 thats regulated down to 130 PSI (same as green) before it ever hits the internals of the gun. Wear patterns are there fore the same

 

or think of it the other way around

 

you have two engines rather than two gases

 

one capable of absoultely-positively tongue hanging out, *albartroth* screaming off it 13 miles an hour

 

the other one is capable of 85 miles an hour

 

which ones going to last longer being asked to propel you around at 13mph non stop?

[AGuy]

This thread is now pointless, I vote to lock it

[Gliderrider]

Snorkleman, Thanks, is this what you are talking about? http://www.sportsmk.co.uk/category/co2guns-co2poweradaptor/

 

What sort of benefits does CO2 give you over Green Gas in winter?

 

AGuy, Evidently it has a point, I just learnt something, and isnt saying that pretty pointless anyway?