Celcius PTW

[snorkelman]

happens to us all but at end of the day if you bought it, you like it and you were happy enough with the price at the time (and intend to keep it) it dont really matter what price the next version of something comes in at

 

2000+ bucks sunk into a guarder aksu then VFC brought out a better one a year later for 400, then dboys brought out an even cheaper one a year and half later again only difference is my 2000 bucks got me one 2 and a half years earlier than waiting for the 100 dollar one would have done

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Of course, we're all assuming that retailers in the UK will actually stock these rifles (shoud they come out)....I mean, I've only ever seen one retailer carry Systema products and actively try to persuade customers to buy a different rifle (Zeroone) but then you can hardly call Z1 a avid stockist of Systema products....

 

Due to the amount of tech going into a PTW or even a CTW, you'd want a rock solid guarantee!! Most retailers are happy to give you a guarantee on a PTW, but on a Celcius...hmm lets see. And to those who'd happily go abroad to buy a Celcius, good luck on that, especially if the rifle goes wrong!

 

What , we in the UK also need to consider, although the rifle is $500 in the US, etc...you can bet your *albartroth* it'll be around £600 or £700 over here! I mean look at the cost of the STAR SCAR, $500 in the US etc, that should be £250 over here...but no, you'll get one for around £500!!

 

So it might not be as cut and dry as we think....it may only be a marginally cheaper PTW, at which point you have to ask, do you get a CTW for a few bucks less, or go for something tried and tested for a few bucks more

[1st_shooter]

A bit off topic but it seemed to me that loads of well known UK retailers are now stocking PTW's/parts. I believed '6mil' to be the main dealer as they always had stuff in 1st and the best prices but Now Airsoft Armoury are offering PTW's and even got the MP5 before 6mil. Also people like LWA and Fire support now stocking stystemas. But yeahs when the Clones originaly come out it was limited warranty and retailers like wolf armouries still offer only a very limited warrenty i believe so im sure it would be fairly similer with something like this.

If this PTW is around £6/700 you can get a Systema PTW for that now if you want the new MP5.

[bjorn]

In case it can use Marui style normal hopup rubbers, it could be a very good basis for a semi auto sniper shooting around 600 FPS

 

Bjorn

[weaponx]

Oooh! Oooooh! Me next!

 

I've got an 08 PTW. It's great and I love it. But it's also one of those suffering with the dodgy motor syndrome that has afflicted so many of them. Still, despite that it still holds a special place in my heart like no other airsoft gun I've owned ever has (including my pulse rifle).

 

Now, I can speak for a fair few PTW owners by saying that we would WELCOME rather than condemn any company to clone the PTW. Why? Well, sure it sucks that we'll have spent 3 times the amount on the Systema article, but it's not like our expenditure ends there, is it? Systema have been absolutely useless in a number of areas recently. They are HUGELY overpriced for what they are, even though the wholesale price was lowered recently, I've seen no retail price reductions. Systema has relied on themselves being the only ones offering this type of product and if they wanted to keep it that way they should of protected themselves better (maybe they have, I don't know). No one can go 'Waaaaaaaa Waaaaaa Waaaaaaa, it's not fair to copy other peoples designs' because EVERYONE does it. And at the end of the day, it always ends up benefiting us, the consumer. I couldn't give a toss if Systema lose business. If they can't adapt and survive in a changing industry then that's their look out.

 

The PTW isn't a magical invention. It's a toy gun like the rest of them that works a little differently and a fair bit better. If they could build the same gun to the same spec and did the wise thing and read the PTW users forum and tweaked it a little and then sold it for even two thirds the price of the PTW, they'd be laughing.

 

I didn't choose Systema. I chose the product they sell because it was the only of it's type on the market. I'd love to be able to get spares and whatever from somewhere else.

[1st_shooter]

Whats this motor problem dude? I have an 08 M4A1 which does made quite a high pitched sound when firing compared to a normal AEG but i assumed this was normal and have had no problems mechanical problems.

[weaponx]

Three outta four of the 08 PTW's we bought (don't know about the fourth as it hasn't been used probably) have had the motors die. One has had TWO motors die in it. They've all seen a fair bit of use, mine being the most used. Seems to be a pretty common occurrence with the 490a types. Then there's also the ones in the UK that I've heard about. Paul at AI mags, although he was told he had a flat battery I don't believe it, one from Landwarrior, one of the DAB lot. The two that are left of our lot are starting to sound the way that ours did before they died. Sluggish response between trigger pull and the gun firing etc....

 

Seems that the new type motor has a non-adjustable shaft. But for some odd reason, Systema still installed the adjustment bearing between the grip plate and the shaft. Looks like pressure against the shaft may be the cause of them burning out. That said, one of our guys is an RC whizz and he has never seen the amount of debris and wear and marking to the comm points than what he's sen on these.

 

To cap it off - I've had ZERO replies from Systema about what they plan to do about it as simple replacements won't do. And there was me thinking that you pay and premium and get excellent customer support. Nope. They couldn't give a toss.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

I was told about the motor issue when I went to 6mil in Cannock, I was enquiring about a Systema, and they freely told me that they were seeing motor issues. The easy fixis to use the motor that came in the 07 model year PTW.

[weaponx]

I was told about the motor issue when I went to 6mil in Cannock, I was enquiring about a Systema, and they freely told me that they were seeing motor issues. The easy fixis to use the motor that came in the 07 model year PTW.

 

Yeah....thats great. Only they don't make them anymore. Very easy to say that. Alot harder to find any. TRUST ME. I've even had a buddy of mine hit the shops in HK.

 

Edit. If 6mil have any, I'll have 5 off them right now. I'll be sure to phone them on Monday and see if they any.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Oh right, sorry I should have added, they offered to exchange the motor in the rifle when/if I bought one!....

 

Its funny though, cuase this is the sort of thing that wil sink a company faster then the Titannic....if people are constantly going back to the retailer on warranty issues, and the parts are not availible to fix it, it won't be long before retailers start shunning that product or manufacturer (G&G anyone)

 

[weaponx]

My guess is that they have some stock of 07 guns left over (as do a number of retailers) and they're tiding themselves over by replacing the duff motors with the 480's outta those until Systema hopefully sorts this out. That's a great thing to do and kudos to them. As far as I know, the 07 and the 08 cost exactly the same to buy at trade so it's not like they're losing money on it. Hell, with the trouble going on with the 08's at the moment, Combat South shop was able to sell last years model this week which should by all rights be obsolete with no one wanting it.

[Cartman999]

Firstly, a very interesting thread that has caused me to register !

 

There are several running themes here that I'd like to take a stab at though.

 

1. I have two PTW's (a CQB-R and a DMR styled M16A3) and several other people at the sites I go to have them too. I've shot loads of other M4's (ICS, D-boys, CA, TM etc) and PTW's are just better. They are not perfect, but what is? I know of no PTW user that has not modded it severely, but they are still better than any other stock AEG - albeit at a hefty premium. I have replaced just about everything I can on it with real steal parts to improve it. I'm in the UK and have no problems sourcing RS parts - you just have to know where to look

 

2. Are Systema's overpriced ? Absolutely no doubt. But whilst you do get a better product, there is a law of diminishing returns. Is a £200 M4 twice as good as a £100? Most likely. Is a £400 twice as good as a £200 one? Less likely and so on. I bought my Systema's because they are the best that are CURRENTLY for sale. They are not perfect (some people have the problems with the 490a motors - although it is fixable if you know about it in advance) and I would not expect them to be. New models forom other manufacturers will no doubt improve on the PTW and cause Systema to raise their game

 

3. The cost of the PTW is an attractive feature because it creates excusivity ? Behave. Only a howling moron would buy a more expensive item if a cheaper one actually better. I shot a D-Boys with some upgraded innners for some time as I don't think that the TM ones were all that better. I still use a WE Hi-Cappa because the WA are not worth the money (in my opinion, of course)

 

4. The fact that it is a clone is not a bad thing. It is a clone - enough waffle about this - an exact copy of a product is a clone by definition. If this clone gets Systema to drop their prices (£115 for a cylinder is more than a little over the top), improve their range (maybe use CNC receivers or make pistols) or make other manufacturers also produce PTW's then so much the better. Competition will only be to our benefit. After all, Systema make replacement hops (and other things) for TM guns and no one bitches. If the new clone is better than the Systema then if I ever wanted another one, I'd get a Chinese copy. For instance, I don't use Systema springs in my cylinders. APS springs are a third the price and work as well

 

5. I am grateful for every person out there who has bought a PTW since they came out. If they didn't then we would not have the 2008 model, this new clone or any other one in the future. Someone has to start the process and those that follow can always do it cheaper. After all, all high end kit costs more to start with (Blu-ray, DVD, HD TV's) so I personally won't loose any sleep if the new clone is of the same standard as my PTW for half the price

 

As such, I know of no PTW owner that would loose sleep over the clone - in fact all are keen to see it and hope it works well. If it does, then I see it as something that can only the improve kit available - after all if i's the same quality, I'd by all my Systema parts as clones - who wouldn't ? I like the look of the new PTW MP5 as well, but if a clone comes out that is better, then I'll have that one.

 

Now if someone would be kind enough to get their hands on one of these clones so we could all find out how good it is........

[Inq Eisenhorn]

1. I have two PTW's (a CQB-R and a DMR styled M16A3) and several other people at the sites I go to have them too. I've shot loads of other M4's (ICS, D-boys, CA, TM etc) and PTW's are just better. They are not perfect, but what is? I know of no PTW user that has not modded it severely, but they are still better than any other stock AEG - albeit at a hefty premium. I have replaced just about everything I can on it with real steal parts to improve it. I'm in the UK and have no problems sourcing RS parts - you just have to know where to look

 

I'd be interested in which parts can be exchanged for the real steel parts?

 

Serious question by the way!

[Rob15]

What , we in the UK also need to consider, although the rifle is $500 in the US, etc...you can bet your *albartroth* it'll be around £600 or £700 over here! I mean look at the cost of the STAR SCAR, $500 in the US etc, that should be £250 over here...but no, you'll get one for around £500!!

Yes, 'should' be £250 in an imaginary magical world where currency conversion charges, import tax, duty, handling fees, VAT, higher business rates, tax and business running costs don't exist.

 

Another point, systema actually could do very well out of this. More people with PTWs means a lot more broken PTWs and unless Celcius release spares everyone will be going to WGC and other big shops buying Systemas spare PTW parts to repair their clones, and you can bet Systema make a small fortune off the spares.

 

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Yes, 'should' be £250 in an imaginary magical world where currency conversion charges, import tax, duty, handling fees, VAT, higher business rates, tax and business running costs don't exist.

 

I know why the guns cost more here....that was my whole point

[Cartman999]

I'd be interested in which parts can be exchanged for the real steel parts?

 

Serious question by the way!

 

Ooo where to start. I have the following RS parts on mine (exclding the sights and surefire tac-light)

 

Daniel Defense stocktube sling mount

CAA buffer tube

Yankee Hill gas block

Yankee Hill full length rail (mates the front RIS to the receiver)

UTG front RIS (for the CQB-R)

Daniel Defense RIS (for the DMR)

PAC Tactical charging handle

 

Insofar as the parts that can be changed, there is virtually nothing that can't be substituted for RS. This includes the gast tube, both the upper and lower receiver, grip, stocks, trigger guards etc etc. The two receivers require a small amount of milling (2 minutes worth) and will then fit. All the other parts are completely interchangable.

 

The only thing to bear in mind for the UK is that receivers are component parts as per s5 of the Firearms Act. If you get the milling on the receivers done in the US then they are no longer component parts (as they will no longer work with a firearm) and ok to import.

 

Again, this is a plus with the Systema but the cost thing does come into it. After all, La Rue and Daniel Defense do some very high quality kit, but $150 for a Daniel Defense EOTech Riser is a bit steep when a $30 YH one is just as good. And if the clone is made to the same tolerences......

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Dude, if I get a Systema we'll have to have a long conversation

 

[DEVGRU14]

I'm glad about this.

very glad.

[Titleist]

I'm not gonna toot my own horn, okay yes I am, but I'm cackling like a madman when I read this, I was the first guy besides Solo (i miss that guy, he rocked) to own a PTW on this forum, and again I will never say it's a great gun. It's a decent gun at best.

 

But come on, systema hasn't innovated at all on their product, seriously...the '08 model? You put a few LEDs in it and charge a premium?! Here's the other thing, they're price gouging their retailers, all making them forced to sell it at a locked MSRP. How can you foster buyer interested when you're forcing them to 'what what in the butt'!

 

I can't imagine any logical PTW owner not welcoming this, as if you can make the clone market viable 3rd party upgrades will follow.

 

If systema really wanted to innovate they would have created a PTW gearbox that could retrofit into V2/V3/VWhatever gearboxes. They obviously can't produce decent externals (the only good part on the PTW is the steel barrel), so make them work in standard guns. Christ, build a gearbox and a new magazine type that anyone can purchase, they'd have made a killing. It almost seems like the Revolution gearbox is a half step towards this, but even the Revolution gearbox seems like a half assed "sorry the PTW aint working out" from Systema, especially with these half assed yearly riced out upgrades...LEDS?!! Seriously?!

 

Someone made a comment about how there always seems to be this anti-systema angst that follows threads like this. Well I gotta say, it doesn't surprise me, I'm usually the guy slinging venom around, not because I hate systema, I just hate how much lost potential they have for their product. Drop them prices, innovate, make it either worth the 1500 bucks, or drop the price. Hell I have a substantial investment in my PTW, I'll admit that. I just bought a damn 500 dollar CNC'd lower, and another few hundred on a real bushmaster upper to make my PTW's body NOT suck. I've past the point of no return. That said, systema users should welcome the news.

 

Also, here's an open challenge, PTW zealots keep saying it's a training weapon, okay...find me a real MIL agency that uses the PTW. Seriously, not some kyber circle jerk off place, a real MIL agency that's on the books as adopting it. Because frankly a blue grip does not a mil contract make.

[DUBOIS]

Ooo where to start. I have the following RS parts on mine (exclding the sights and surefire tac-light)

 

Daniel Defense stocktube sling mount

CAA buffer tube

Yankee Hill gas block

Yankee Hill full length rail (mates the front RIS to the receiver)

UTG front RIS (for the CQB-R)

Daniel Defense RIS (for the DMR)

PAC Tactical charging handle

 

Insofar as the parts that can be changed, there is virtually nothing that can't be substituted for RS. This includes the gast tube, both the upper and lower receiver, grip, stocks, trigger guards etc etc. The two receivers require a small amount of milling (2 minutes worth) and will then fit. All the other parts are completely interchangable.

 

The only thing to bear in mind for the UK is that receivers are component parts as per s5 of the Firearms Act. If you get the milling on the receivers done in the US then they are no longer component parts (as they will no longer work with a firearm) and ok to import.

 

Again, this is a plus with the Systema but the cost thing does come into it. After all, La Rue and Daniel Defense do some very high quality kit, but $150 for a Daniel Defense EOTech Riser is a bit steep when a $30 YH one is just as good. And if the clone is made to the same tolerences......

 

As an American I have access to an unlimited catalogue of R-S parts... well almost... Just about any Real Part will work... Vltor buffer tubes, Vltor emod stocks, Real LMT Crane stocks, RASes of all types, front sights of all types, gas tubes, gas blocks, trigger guards, bolt covers, charging handles, sling swivels, and more will work with very little to no mods... A Magpul MIAD can be made to work, as can any real upper reciever, barrel, magazine, lower receiver(to my knowledge) and others will all work, although they require more extensive modding... This is what I learn't when researching PTWs.... (this post by vercingetorix, mistakenly posted under this account..)

[DarkLite]

Also, here's an open challenge, PTW zealots keep saying it's a training weapon, okay...find me a real MIL agency that uses the PTW. Seriously, not some kyber circle jerk off place, a real MIL agency that's on the books as adopting it. Because frankly a blue grip does not a mil contract make.

 

There isn't one. No MIL/LE agency is crazy enough to buy one for that much money when they can just use blanks and existing weapons.

 

I have heard of some LE agencies in Asia training with airsoft replicas - but not PTWs.

[Titleist]

Dubois, sorry dude, but I have a few things about your post that need to be corrected;

 

Real lower receivers do not work (completely different in regards to attachments and internal dimensions), you might want to research that one a little bit more. Secondly there's very little that a good gunsmith can't affix to a standard V2 based gun, i.e real stocks, stock tubes, RAS's, etc. It doesn't take a 1500 dollar gun to do that, so check your facts.

 

Lastly wow you can fit a real MIAD to a PTW after heavy dremeling? Congrats, Magpul makes one that works for normal airsoft guns, right out of the box.

 

Again, big deal on the gas tubes, gas blocks, trigger guards, etc. Oh wow, charging handles? Seriously?! on a gun that the charging handle doesn't even move...man is that just SO AWESOME!

 

I used to think the 1:1 dimensions and installation of parts was a selling point, but after personally finding out about out of spec barrels, out of spec uppers (ask Magsz about that fun one) it's just not a bragging right anymore. I know plenty of people who've got real rails on their guns, real parts, etc. Sure you can put real uppers on the PTW, but that's a high cost low yield upgrade. There's very little that the PTW does that's unique, even when it comes to cosmetic accesorizing.

 

And just to re-iterate, real lowers DO NOT WORK ON THE PTW. That to me just invalidates most of your post, so you might want to research a little more before making those claims.

 

And Darklite, I totally agree, as much as Simunitions suck, at least it's an affordable product vs a gun that doesn't simulate anything reliably.

[tanakas]

like a member said on my local forum. this will most likely be like a clone aeg. with systema's already weak hop up, a clone will be even more exaggerated.

[tanakas]

to what titleist said:

 

yeah ive heard of people receiving their guns with the top rail on the upper receivers out of spec(as in sights and etc. will not fit on it correctly)

[Cartman999]

to what titleist said:

 

yeah ive heard of people receiving their guns with the top rail on the upper receivers out of spec(as in sights and etc. will not fit on it correctly)

 

Titleist is quite correct on the upper rails. The first one that I picked up in the shop would not mount my EOTech as the right edge of the rail had not been cut sharply enough and the clip would not engage. That said, the next one out of the box was fine. QC is not a 100% by a long shot, but no AEG is - although I do wish it were. Again, the issue of competition comes in. If this new clone (and those that will follow) are good, then Systema will no doubt improve their kit too.

 

Insofar as a comment above about replacing parts like gas tubes and charging handles - why not ? Personally I only replaced the charging handle to make it easier to get the cylinder out as the EOTech 3x sits over it so a bigger one makes it easier. I wouldn't change things simply for the sake of it - I want to see an improvement that is not prohibitively expensive. If you have a look on the Europe Systema forum or ar15.com pages, the amount of money spent by some people is outrageous - but who am I to criticise ? If you want to fit a La Rue upper receiver then why not. The gun will be rock solid. I will probably get a VLTOR upper and custom CNC lower receiver myself this year. After all, I can't see the point of spending a fortune on 1960 USMC clothing, but if people want to do that then I say good luck to them.