Celcius PTW

[Spiderpig]

One word: wat

Was about the bloody time

[Stealthbomber]

I realise you said more, but to defend China, Real Sword have come up with a number of new AEG's. That in my opinion are revolutionary. Having designed the internals around the external confinements, rahter than building a body onto a mechbox. I would buy a Real Sword product with no qualms, much the same as I was buying a TM.

I agree.

 

There's a couple of points here though...

 

Firstly, real Sword are (AFAIK) buying in real gun parts and then fitting airsoft internals to them. That's great and they really DO set the benchmark for people who are fans of those models.

However, what's the chances of Real Sword ever producing a TAR21, Galil or F2000 by this method?

If they do then all power to them. They WILL be setting the benchmark.

 

Secondly, as I think I've mentioned before () I don't have anything against chinese guns at all. My concern is that chinese companies will be knocking off existing products and selling lower quality versions, made from weaker materials, at a lower price and, as a result, vastly reduce the market for the companies that developed the thing in the first place.

 

What's that got to do with anything?

 

Well, Real Sword aren't actually DOING any of that stuff. They're not nicking other peoples designs.

What they are doing is, as per my first point, using existing gun parts for their products so I am concerned that their potential for developing new products in the future (ten years down the road) is limited.

 

I don't buy clone or copy Nike shoes, or TAG watches, I buy the originals for the quality. It is a buyer's market, you pays your money, you takes your choices. If the Celcius clone PTW is a lemon, then Systema's market shouldn't take too much of a hit. I am very brand loyal because you are almost certain of the proven quality time and time again (like Nike trainers, Carhartt jeans, Kelloggs cereal, Heinz canned foods), and hopefully Systema have made products that are good enough to keep a loyal band of consumers.

 

It's not really the same situation though, is it?

 

When you buy a fake Rolex or a fake pair of Reeboks you KNOW you're buying a low quality product that isn't as good as the real thing.

By way of metaphor, it'd be like buying a Systema PTW that had all the PTW markings but, inside, was a chinese LPEG.

All it's capable of doing is looking the part until called upon to work as it should.

 

In airsoft, the chinese companies are copying existing designs and then selling them as equals to existing products.

By way of metaphor for this, if Tata made an identical copy of the Ford Mustang, except that it used slightly cheaper materials, ran a little rougher, rusted a bit quicker and wasn't quite as comfortable, and started selling it in dealerships across the USA, how long do you suppose they'd be allowed to carry on before the injunctions came rolling in?

 

We can take this metaphor a bit further too.

You can head across to Malaysia or Thailand and get yourself a copy of a Ferrari Enzo or even a Lamborghini Gallardo, made to your exact specifications, for around $60k. They rip the guts out of a BMW M5 to build them so the car you end up with can actually be better that the original. In fact, there's currently a company offering to make a Veyron replica that used TWO M5 V12 engines and produces approximately 1400bhp, but I digress.

Point being that you can buy these replicas privately with relatively few problems.

Again, try setting up a dealership selling them and see how long you last before the weight of FIAT or VAG descends on you from a great height.

The interesting thing is that, back in the day, Ferrari or Lamborghini were unable to stop these copies being made. However, now they are owned by corporate giants, they have the legal clout to put the smack-down on copies.

 

If coping designs is wrong then surely the only difference between Ferrari and Systema is that one has the power to protect their products while the other doesn't?

[zeaken]

stealthbomber, Doesnt the realsword type 97 fit under the revolutionary side where its something no one has ever made before or are you condeming them because they are not making a gun you desire?

 

on topic i feel it its perfectly fair that systema gets to face its clone woes like everyone else. clones have driven companies like ca to lower there prices and create things like the sportline series which most people would get any day over a clone. at the very least systema owners may now have a reasonable way to aquire mags

[Inq Eisenhorn]

How does Real Sword actually get away with making what they make (AEGs) I thought that airsoft and the production of airsoft AEGs was illegal in China?!? Not to mention that Real Sword actually make Chinese specific rifles used by the Peoples Army!

 

 

[QQexDERA]

Systema can moan as much as they want - its nowt more than hypocrisy, considering that their own regular V2 gearboxes are merely clones (though better) of Marui's gearbox....

 

 

[DWells55]

Personally I don't care for the whole PTW thing that much, I just like realistic operating functions. I'd like to see an Armalite with fully realistic operation. For example:

- doesn't fire when mag is empty

- keeps track of a virtual bolt

- reloads require bolt release to be pressed when virtual bolt is back

- reloads require charging handle to be pulled to fire if virtual bolt is not back

[Hispeed1]

Finally-a Systema M4 clone. I am so getting this...

[Titleist]

I'll chime in again.

 

I'm not about to run out and ditch my investment the PTW i own. It's already breached that gap when building guns, i.e when you've put more into it that you'll ever get back out of it. I'm within a few weeks of changing out the monkey metal upper with a real bushmaster receiver, and one of those CNC'd colt lowers. So i'll NEVER get what I put in back out in a sale.

 

So I think it's kind of goofy to suggest, as some members have, to sell off their guns ASAP before the roof crashes down. I have my doubts this will be as good as the systema gun, and that's fine. What it does serve as is a fire under Systema's *albatross*. We all know at this point that the PTW failed as a training tool, and Systema *beep* on it's core market by at first restricting the PTW to mil/LE sales only, then releasing it for too much, then remember the *beep* they pulled on retailers lowering the price below MSRP! Good job systema, price gouge away!

 

Here's the thing, back in the summer I took a lot of *beep* for arguing why the iphone was so damn awesome. A took a lot of flak for it being expensive and having design draw backs, but like the PTW, there's something innovative at the core that will shape other companies. Look at all the cell phones coming out, they're learning from the iphone and what it does right. It's now time for airsoft companies to rip the *beep* out of the PTW, learn what it does good, and make it better. There's no way consumers can lose from this. PTW users could potentially get real metal bodies, magazines that are as cheap in cost as V2 style mags, a real hopup that doesn't suck, etc etc...

 

Kind of an anecdote, but I remember back in 2005 when I got my PTW, I never raved about it, in fact the first one I got came with a cracked stock and a 400 dollar customs fee. That really didn't sit well with me. Ever since I've been kind of lukewarm on the platform, and while the community of owners grew, I remained the one guy who would always pipe in and point out the ugly truths. It's now interesting that the community has started being more honest about the product, and I'm actually pleased the amount of douchebagery has reduced. Because the general feeling is that, "this is gonna be good for us." What's always ###### me off about Systema, and you can read back from the mountains of posts I've made about it, is that it's a great gearbox wrapped around a so so gun. Why I praise companies like VFC, G&P, Guarder, Trigger Happy, Inokatsu, etc...is that they're coming out with new guns, completely new guns, monthly or yearly. Systema has added a few LEDs to their guns, changed a barrel length, and called it "2008 new model!" I've seen pictures of Systema's CNC floor, their equipment, and it boggles my mind how a company with that much talent and resources is sitting on its *albatross* not making new products.

 

Systema used to mean a great part or gearbox, now it's a joke. Sorry for the rant, the simple answer is that I think the clones are good, send in the clones!

[Dentonboy]

While my Nike analogy wasn't exact, it is similar. The Chinese make exact copies of popular models; Nike Air Max '95s for example, with air bubbles etc, exactly the same look as Nike originals, but 1/2 the price, maybe even 1/4 of the price. They have factories that produce these knock-offs next door to the real Nike factories. Yes, you can argue that you know you are buying a fake, but the quality may be almost exactly the same as the original, it really depends on the skill of the worker. The originals and the fakes are turned out at the same rate in China. Needless to say, I buy the originals when I want footwear, purely out of brand loyalty - I feel real products have less chance of going wrong; as I do with ACM guns over TM versions. The Chinese have no regard for patent law, and Blue Chip companies are far too afraid to lose their cheap factoury locations and minimum wage labour to do owt about it. Fact.

 

What is the difference between a fake and a clone if they use similar materials, maybe even the same blueprints. I am thinking just the 'trademarks', not always the performance.

 

What Celcius appear to be doing is similar you'll find. Taking a design, copying it regardless of patent law and pushing out a product that may or may not be inferior to Systema's original, but sure as Hell is cheaper.

[Stealthbomber]

stealthbomber, Doesnt the realsword type 97 fit under the revolutionary side where its something no one has ever made before or are you condeming them because they are not making a gun you desire?

No, no.

 

I agree with you completely. I think the Real Sword guns set the benchmark for other manufacturers of that kind of gun and I applaud their idea of doing a deal with a real firearm factory to obtain parts.

 

My concern is that the quality of RS guns isn't actually representative of the standard they could achieve in any other guns.

 

I admit that, personally, I'm not a fan of Eastern weapons and, as such, there's nothing in the RS range that really floats my boat.

Even so, I wonder how long they can go on selling the same weapon.

I'm sure all the fans will be buying them this year and, maybe, next year but there's gonna come a point when the market is saturated with super-duper AKs and, at that point, I hope that a chinese manufacturer can offer me a high quality F2000, TAR21, SCAR etc.

At the moment I doubt RS can do that.

 

There's no way consumers can lose from this. PTW users could potentially get real metal bodies, magazines that are as cheap in cost as V2 style mags, a real hopup that doesn't suck, etc etc...

 

Interesting point there.

 

One of the main selling points of the PTW has always been its dimensional accuracy and the ability to fit real-steel parts and accessories.

 

I wonder if there's been an impact on PTW sales in the UK (and similar countries) compared to the USA because we, in the UK, only have access to a very limited number of real-steel parts?

[FO1]

Is this the end of Systema PTWs??? Is this how Systema is going to end, with a clone PTW stealing Systema's market?! This is outrageous. This is MADNESS! Am I the only one not liking this? This is seriously dirty.

 

 

yeah i guess you are because im relieved to see another competitor in this arena. better yet, cheaper mags for the ptw. those mags are so expensive. im happy and i cant wait to see the results of this clone. as a matter of fact, i could care less about the clones performance, its the extensive cheaper accessories we would be privy to.

[Titleist]

yeah i guess you are because im relieved to see another competitor in this arena. better yet, cheaper mags for the ptw. those mags are so expensive. im happy and i cant wait to see the results of this clone. as a matter of fact, i could care less about the clones performance, its the extensive cheaper accessories we would be privy to.

 

Agreed, Systema bragged that their mags didn't jam and were made to feed properly. Guess what? They costs 3-4x more than most mags and jam up just as fast. Oh and they're a *badgeress* to take apart, bring on the cheapo mags.

 

Stealth, no clue on that one, I wouldn't have the perspective of a UK airsofter. But the PTW might be popular more in the US because of those readily available parts. But frankly besides forearm compatibility, there's really not a lot that V2 based guns can't fit. A rail is a rail, whatever you want to bolt on a rail is as easy as turning a screw.

 

Frankly the only thing on my CQBR that wouldn't be drop in is the KAC RAS.

[Magsz]

Well atleast if everyone has one then the myth that PTW's are the best airsoft gun ever will finally die.

 

Il admit they got some fantastic ideas and technology, but $1000+ for something that might only work for a morning game, yeah il stick to my tried and tested technology thanks

 

HAHAHAH, right on the money there bro, right, on the damned money. Price does NOT always translate into quality.

 

Well, to those who have already purchased a PTW, surely the fun you got out of it until now was worth the price difference?

 

For example, new video game comes out, retailing at $60. I buy the game when it comes out. 2 years later the cost is down to $20. Was having the game 2 years earlier worth the extra $40 I paid?

 

I'm sure it's a flawed example because it is off by a scale of 25, but I think the argument still holds.

 

Most people bought their PTW's simply because they ARE expensive. Believe me, these guys who thought they bought into an exclusive club dont care about what "fun" they've had with the gun to date. All that matters is the fact that their exclusivity is jeopardized.

 

From what I've read, the PTW already has a *suitcasey* body, so thats one thing the cloners could improve on.

 

I doubt there are gonna be alot of kids with it, because its 500 USD and they would prefer to buy another cheap or 2, or just loads of accessories.

 

Right on the money again. The PTW has a "high quality" die cast metal body thats extremely brittle. I doubt the chinese will improve on it but here's the thing. Buy the clone ptw for 500 dollars and then go ahead and spend another 500 bucks on a CNC'd 7075 aluminum body and you're done. In total, you still spent a third of the cost of a new PTW...rofl, im loving this.

 

I really think that this whole thing is hilarious. Let me ask you guys something. Since this was taken from another board is it possible that this is a late April Fools joke? Im just throwing the idea out there because i honestly dont know.

 

My personal opinion on the matter is that i dont care. Systema is charging a ridiculous premium for their technology and in this case, id feel terrible if they folded but at the same time id be hard pressed to defend them and their business practices.

 

Shrug, i say bring on the clones, especially the PTW clones.

 

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Just did a search on the Real Sword website....its actually a Hong Kong based company....so therefore surely it falls into the same cup as Classic Army and G&P....I can find no evidence that Real Sword even belongs in this discussion, as they are certainly not a "clone" manufacturer...have you seen their gearboxes? and the externals they use?

 

In fact I'd be so bold as to say their even less of a clone manufacturer than Systema....

[Azulsky]

Current Feelings are that they wont be able to replicate the electronics, the PTW's have more than simple FET's in them. All in all its put up or shut up, so we cant say anything until we can even confirm whether this is BS or not.

[Magsz]

Current Feelings are that they wont be able to replicate the electronics, the PTW's have more than simple FET's in them. All in all its put up or shut up, so we cant say anything until we can even confirm whether this is BS or not.

 

If the Chinese can make cell phones they can make FETS. Come on man...

[GuzziHero]

A few points:

 

#1

I don't buy clone or copy Nike shoes,

 

AHAHAHAHAHA - where do you think the Swooshtika have their products produced? If you think they, or any other western company, gives a flying hoot about giving you better quality, or lower prices, or better human rights, or supporting the US/UK/European economies, you need to see how many are shipping their facilities to SE Asia and the Marianas. They do not give a damn. Theyll lower original prices and still rob you at the checkout. All of those wondering why I hate corporate laws needs to realise that they are damaging your countries economies and your livelihoods, and they dont care.

 

This is why I laughed, long and heartily, when 'Rocksport' copies of 'Rockport' clothing became more of a fashion statement than the originals - it was a symbol of striking back.

 

 

#2

FarEast (I think) said in a previous thread that when asked, Marui said they didnt give a damn about Chinese clones. I have to wonder if a lot of Chinese companies are specifically powering their guns up and out of the Japanese market to avoid any legislation the Japanese might throw at them. You want to downgrade your Chinasoft? Chances are, you just have to remove spacers from the piston and spring guide.

 

 

#3

I asked Jake (Vanderer) in another thread about how many items, roughly, were in a Chinasoft production run. His reply, in short, is that they ONLY produce according to demand as they do not keep stocks in. That means that when interest drops, they move onto the next item. So production runs are very very short, compared to, say, Maruis or CAs. A particular copy of another product will not only take some time after the original before it is produced, it wont be around for very long. So if you like a particular product, get em while you can, kids. You just have to look on RSOV to see how many discontinued items there are these days...

[Stealthbomber]

Current Feelings are that they wont be able to replicate the electronics, the PTW's have more than simple FET's in them. All in all its put up or shut up, so we cant say anything until we can even confirm whether this is BS or not.

Eh?

 

Who's currently feeling like that?

 

I'm pretty sure your PS3 is made in china. I know my TV is.

If they can build a DVD player, I'm pretty sure they can build the electronics in a PTW.

[snorkelman]

Just did a search on the Real Sword website....its actually a Hong Kong based company....so therefore surely it falls into the same cup as Classic Army and G&P....I can find no evidence that Real Sword even belongs in this discussion, as they are certainly not a "clone" manufacturer...have you seen their gearboxes? and the externals they use?

 

In fact I'd be so bold as to say their even less of a clone manufacturer than Systema....

 

eh? RS use a mechbox gear train, piston assembly etc modeled on the marui design (if I was daft enough I could swap most internals of the mechbox on the T56 for marui ones) their guns are manufactured in mainland china with a trading office registered in HK, they use mags that are in line with marui spec and a hop up unit straight out of the marui AK47 = chinese clone

 

The systema on the other hand uses proprietary mags hop inner barrel and a planetary gearbox all of which was deliberately designed to avoid patent issues versus marui (as systema were a Japanese company rtailign in Japan and thus fell under the restrictions of Maruis patents) = not a clone

 

 

As far as the T97 goes its modeled 1:1 dimensionally against the original and manufactured from same materials however the T97 receiver is not a demilled real steel part simply a duplicate of it in all but internal structure (wich is completely different to that of the real deal) not all the parts on the T56 can be traced back to a real steel weapon either (barrel etc are airsoft) yet finish on the parts is still identical to a real type 56. were they to have a wish to they have demonstrated the ability to make 1:1 components externally indistinguishable from original parts in fit and finish.

 

even taking all the externals out of the picture they are still able to turn out one of the best sets of stock gearbox components Ive seen of any off the shelf manufac, shim those to pretty much near perfection and assemble the whole damn lot with zero, creak, rattle, sloppy gaps, or dodgy wiring etc for 370 bucks RRP

 

Once again theres no point folks claiming these arent clones because they're better than the current crop of 80 dollar chinese clones consider them working examples of what the chinese can do when they take the market seriously and have sufficient confidence in it to make the extra effort. The last few generations of the 80 to 100 dollar clones show a trend in chinese manufac that IS slowly but surely taking the airsoft market inceasingly seriously - having moved from regarding it as worthy of no more effort than required to churn out crateloads of cheap shelf fillers for newsagent shops and market stalls for 2 bob and a pickle over to where most of their mainstream manufacs are now. Are they the finished article yet? no. are they moving at increasing pace in that direction? yes. give them another year or so and chances are they'll be there. Give them two and chances are they may well be leaving the competition behind.

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

...one of the best sets of stock gearbox components Ive seen of any off the shelf manufac, shim those to pretty much near perfection and assemble the whole damn lot with zero, creak, rattle, sloppy gaps, or dodgy wiring etc for 370 bucks RRP

 

Once again theres no point folks claiming these arent clones because they're better than the current crop of 80 dollar chinese clones consider them working examples of what the chinese can do when they take the market seriously and have sufficient confidence in it to make the extra effort.

That does sound promising.

 

I gotta point out, however, that a price of $370, puts them in direct competition with existing high-end guns. That's fine by me.

 

Maybe I'm nuts to want the manufacturers to keep prices relatively high?

It just seems that most people will always buy the cheapest thing available as long as it works. When that happens, and it IS happening, then, basically, the rug is pulled out on the original companies.

 

If companies like RS and Celsius are going to produce high quality guns for $350-odd then it gives TM, ICS and CA an opportunity to respond with innovations of their own.

 

By contrast, when companies like DBoys are selling metal AEGs for $100, there's simply nothing a company with higher overheads can do to compete.

 

As I say, I REALLY dread the day when the chinese companies start copying after-market bits for GBBs.

If that happens, I can see the Jap' companies going under.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

I think some of people need to take a reality pill....some things are just fundimental in terms of mechanical engineering....if you're calling Real Steel a "clone" manufacturer because it uses gears in its gear box...WTF?!?! So I guess a Bugatti Veyron is a clone of a Model T Ford because it uses a gearbox, round wheels, a steering wheel and a combustion engine.....okay, yeah, that makes sense.

 

Just because TM pioneered a method to get a 6mm to fly out a barrel without the use of compressed gas in a cannister, that doesn't make every AEG to use that same pioneered method a clone manufacturer....

 

People who are labouring under this set of principles, do you realise how many "new"...and I mean completely NEW innovations actually exsist out there....cause there ain't that many...most of the "great" things we see around us have evolved from a previous tried and tested concept....

 

And if companies like RS are a clone company by the definitions discussed here, then so is every single airsoft AEG after TM.....including Systema. Just because Systema has "tweeked" its design to make it "unlike" a standard TM internal set-up...you'd have to be blind not to see it has simply taken the principles pioneered by TM and added a little cherry on top....wow, what an innovation.

[Dentonboy]

" A few points:

 

#1

QUOTE (Dentonboy @ Apr 10 2008, 01:45 PM) *

I don't buy clone or copy Nike shoes,

 

AHAHAHAHAHA - where do you think the Swooshtika have their products produced? If you think they, or any other western company, gives a flying hoot about giving you better quality, or lower prices, or better human rights, or supporting the US/UK/European economies, you need to see how many are shipping their facilities to SE Asia and the Marianas. They do not give a damn. Theyll lower original prices and still rob you at the checkout. All of those wondering why I hate corporate laws needs to realise that they are damaging your countries economies and your livelihoods, and they dont care.

 

This is why I laughed, long and heartily, when 'Rocksport' copies of 'Rockport' clothing became more of a fashion statement than the originals - it was a symbol of striking back."

 

I am fully aware of where Nike produce most of their products and have stated as so in my previous posts.

 

My main point was; if Western Blue-Chip companies continue to turn a blind eye to Chinese patent violation, then these situations will arise time and time again. Where there is a market, there will be companies looking to exploit it. Systema are arguably too expensive so Celcius are exploiting it.

 

It is up to consumers to vote with their wallets. So far, Chinese AEGs = happy bargain hunting skirmishers.

[Azulsky]

If the Chinese can make cell phones they can make FETS. Come on man...

 

I didnt say they couldnt make it, i just said given what i have seen on the quality of chinese clone companies electronics, im not too hopeful. They cant even copy a TM motor or switch design worth a ######. And the cell phone comparision is bs, thats a US or EU based company coming in and setting up shop for cheap labor, this is the other end of the spectrum from these companies. Like i said, ill pass judgement when i see it, but im extremely doubtful based on the track record of the clone companies. Lets be honest here guys clones are good, but they will not run a m150 spring all day and night.

 

Furthermore, how are they going to limited run this, they are going to set up the tooling and shop and try to beat Systema prices on all these parts without overtaking them in volume. The prices to get all this *beep* custom made, im not holding my breath. Look at a company like VFC or G&P, some of their guns cost $450-$500 and those are run off the mill parts that any clone company can make, not special parts that are going to be needed for this. Cloning is to profit from R&D, but as of right now $500 doesnt seem to cover manufacturing costs.

 

Ill wait till i see it, but honestly i think they could have just engraved something on a batch of old SCK's they bought up for $400 a peice and mark it up for sale.

[Sc!zO]

I dont know why such many people freak out on PTW's. I think it's quite *suitcasey* system. Why? Too much electronics which are easy to break with dust, water, mud and so on...

Greetz

[Shriven]

All I'm gonna say is, "Haa-haa!" and point at Systema.