Celcius PTW

[Magsz]

I dont know why such many people freak out on PTW's. I think it's quite *suitcasey* system. Why? Too much electronics which are easy to break with dust, water, mud and so on...

Greetz

 

Go back and read my earlier post. People believe that price translates into quality. People also want to buy into exclusivity which is something that everyone does in all walks of life.

 

In the end the 150 dollar clone shoots the same 6mm bb's as the 1500 dollar overpriced TOY.

[Mosati]

Go back and read my earlier post. People believe that price translates into quality. People also want to buy into exclusivity which is something that everyone does in all walks of life.

 

In the end the 150 dollar clone shoots the same 6mm bb's as the 1500 dollar overpriced TOY.

 

I hope you're not saying that there's something wrong with people buying an expensive toy, when they have the funds. The PTW is overpriced, yea. It could also use better quality metal for the body. But, it also incorporates a lot of functions you can't get from another gun. To some people, that makes it worth it.

[transist]

IMO Half the appeal of the PTW is that it's expensive and therefore exclusive. I won't argue that that it is a good gun, but I don't think the quality justifies it's price point.

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to pay more than 1000 for an airsoft gun, it had better be flawless. A lot of users would quickly tell you that it most definitely isn't.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

IMO Half the appeal of the PTW is that it's expensive and therefore exclusive. I won't argue that that it is a good gun, but I don't think the quality justifies it's price point.

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to pay more than 1000 for an airsoft gun, it had better be flawless. A lot of users would quickly tell you that it most definitely isn't.

 

 

Agreed, that seems to be one of the few selling points of a PTW.

 

What has been said about the innovation of this should be an opportunity for other companies to take the leap into new unexplored market. I will be honest with you guys, the parts inthe Systema PTW are not something that is difficult to reproduce. They are not particullarly expensive either. Airsoft Mechanics has had an article on MOSFET technology since I started airsofting 4 years ago (now, this month actually) And to be honest that technology has improved drastically. I never thought that I could purchase 90% of a systema PTW's gearbox electronics for 65$ thats a steal. And to top it all off if you know how to solder and have a chip programmer it's just as easy to set up. There is even a group currently working on the "ultra realism mod" which includes anti dry firing, the electronic bolt and bolt release and all of that jive that is still going to cost less than buying a PTW. So that leaves us with what? Price, and a bad *albatross* gearbox design.

 

If a company like TM, CA, G&P, etc took the time to disect the PTW gearbox they would realize that the TM (or if it is tm their own) gearbox design is very flawed and relativly inefficient compared to a PTW's gearbox. I would kill to see planetary gearsets hit a TM styled AEG, it would be glorious.

 

And for the record, The first automobile was not produced by Henry Ford or Ford Motor company. FMC took the idea and made it affordable to the common people. Since then Ford themselves has been stolen from (Camaro anyone? Stolen off the Mustang's premise? Basically the entire "Muscle Car" and "Pony Car" era was Fords creation) the Buggatti is an improvement upon the Model T's design but it is not original in concept.

 

So I guess you can devide the cloning into two area's, Physical cloning and conceptual cloning in which some companies are guilty of both, and others just one. I have yet to see a single airsoft gun that has neither bar maybe the first classic airsoft gun.

[FO1]

That does sound promising.

 

I gotta point out, however, that a price of $370, puts them in direct competition with existing high-end guns. That's fine by me.

 

Maybe I'm nuts to want the manufacturers to keep prices relatively high?

It just seems that most people will always buy the cheapest thing available as long as it works. When that happens, and it IS happening, then, basically, the rug is pulled out on the original companies.

 

If companies like RS and Celsius are going to produce high quality guns for $350-odd then it gives TM, ICS and CA an opportunity to respond with innovations of their own.

 

By contrast, when companies like DBoys are selling metal AEGs for $100, there's simply nothing a company with higher overheads can do to compete.

 

As I say, I REALLY dread the day when the chinese companies start copying after-market bits for GBBs.

If that happens, I can see the Jap' companies going under.

 

i like the idea of more competition, yeah japan are the innovators, but like they say, their is always people wanting to make it affordable to own one. look at ford, they invented the car, now you have many car manufacturers that have to be innovative with their designs.

[Stealthbomber]

i like the idea of more competition, yeah japan are the innovators, but like they say, their is always people wanting to make it affordable to own one. look at ford, they invented the car, now you have many car manufacturers that have to be innovative with their designs.

Yeah but do you think Ford would still be around if the chinese had produced an exact copy of the Model-T and sold it for 25% of Fords price in the days before copyright law was such a big deal?

 

Thing is, to some extent, the sort of "cartel mentality" that current manufacturers have is actually a good thing.

If every manufacturer is offering to sell you an M4 for $350 then it's up to you to check the features, the reliability, the quality and then make a choice on that basis.

 

When a manufacturer can sell a lower-quality gun for much less money you end up in a situation where a bunch of manufacturers are stood around saying "Hey, look at our CNC receiver" or "We can sell you a 2-part gearbox" but the market isn't listening cos they're all buying what they think is the same item for $80.

[snorkelman]

I think some of people need to take a reality pill....some things are just fundimental in terms of mechanical engineering....if you're calling Real Steel a "clone" manufacturer because it uses gears in its gear box...WTF?!?! So I guess a Bugatti Veyron is a clone of a Model T Ford because it uses a gearbox, round wheels, a steering wheel and a combustion engine.....okay, yeah, that makes sense.

 

nopes when bugatti make 1:1 copies of the Model T transmission that are interchangeable with the ones in the model T, stored in a transmission housing thats cast identically to the model T housing held together by the same bolts in the same positions and driven by the same design of crankshaft connected to the same dimension piston with the same piston rings and cylinder head to the point where you could reach into a box of model T spares and find 95 percent of the bits needed to overhaul your bugatti then it would be a clone

 

Which in airsoft terms is what an RS T56 gearbox is when compared to a TM box. As indeed it still would be in terms of patent law even if you were to remove 1mm from the dimensions of every single part so that no direct interchangeability remained with the original, the design and mechanical operation would still be identical.

 

The systema in contrast was set up to avoid in law allegations of being a duplicate of the TM box there is no parts compatibility or interchangability the drivetrain used is a planetary design bb feed doesnt take place using a tappet plate etc. Its got as much in common with a TM box as a 4 stroke chain driven BSA 650 has in common with a 2 stroke crankshaft inducted synchromesh vespa 125. Both might be petrol fueled power sources designed to rotate a single wheel along a road but one is not and wouldnt be regarded as a direct clone of the other. Same goes for TOPs bellows system Asahis BV system versus JACs, escorts blowback system versus TKs, Microsofts Zune versus apples Ipod.

 

take all the 'reality pills' you want but if you're sat in Japan where marui has a patent on its particular gearbox and hop up designs then they wont provide you with any sort of antidote when the big patent infringement injection comes along.

[Azulsky]

And for the record, The first automobile was not produced by Henry Ford or Ford Motor company. FMC took the idea and made it affordable to the common people. Since then Ford themselves has been stolen from (Camaro anyone? Stolen off the Mustang's premise? Basically the entire "Muscle Car" and "Pony Car" era was Fords creation) the Buggatti is an improvement upon the Model T's design but it is not original in concept.

 

For the record:

[snorkelman]

That does sound promising.

 

I gotta point out, however, that a price of $370, puts them in direct competition with existing high-end guns. That's fine by me.

 

Maybe I'm nuts to want the manufacturers to keep prices relatively high?

It just seems that most people will always buy the cheapest thing available as long as it works. When that happens, and it IS happening, then, basically, the rug is pulled out on the original companies.

 

If companies like RS and Celsius are going to produce high quality guns for $350-odd then it gives TM, ICS and CA an opportunity to respond with innovations of their own.

 

By contrast, when companies like DBoys are selling metal AEGs for $100, there's simply nothing a company with higher overheads can do to compete.

 

As I say, I REALLY dread the day when the chinese companies start copying after-market bits for GBBs.

If that happens, I can see the Jap' companies going under.

 

actually 370 at the RS end shows that they can outbuild TM VFC et al despite hitting a similar price point and putting out low volume niche weapons (so if celcius applied same principles (and werent just gouging huge profit from a 70 bucks gun) then a 475 dollars chinese manufactured PTW might well result in a pretty good take on the original

 

CYMA Dboys etc are not going to have to hit anywhere near 370 to outbuild TM etc another 30 to 40 bucks tops onto their existing prices would most likely allow for that. The issue is simply how long is it going to be before they gain sufficient confidence in the market to see going that extra mile (and almost doubling their per unit cost) as a worthwhile risk.

 

In a worst case scenario that would leave a 80 dollar current generation gun replaced by a 120 to 160 dollar next gen item (depending on wether distributors etc want to take same cash value profit per unit and just pass the cost on on top or want to maintain current percentage mark up per unit)

 

As far as mom and pop small custom shops etc go its a different issue

 

A are they producing a niche market item that only a few folks want, and thus needs a high price per unit to justify its production?

 

or

 

B are they producing a mass market high demand item in niche market quantities and niche market high ticket prices because thats all the production capability they have?

 

if the answer is A then their high prices are justified and they can happily continue to churn them out to the relatively small client base they have for them. The chinese are unlikely to be interested

 

but of the answer is B and they're completely failing to meet the demand for the products due to their own restricted manufacturing capabilities they'd have a problem if the chinese got interested.

 

that said I dont see much inovation in churning out 500 limited edition variations of 1911 and hicapa proucts.. Id be more impressed if they were taking the blowback inards of say a marui 1911 and putting all that effort into creating a custom gun to fit them in that resulted in another airsoft pistol choice becoming available (eg a tokarev etc) though thats far more likely to fall under option B than option A.

[snorkelman]

My main point was; if Western Blue-Chip companies continue to turn a blind eye to Chinese patent violation, then these situations will arise time and time again. Where there is a market, there will be companies looking to exploit it. Systema are arguably too expensive so Celcius are exploiting it.

 

except in this case turning a blind eye to patent violations doesnt factor into your average taiwanese, chinese, HK (or even east sussex if someone wanted to open a factory) marui clone. There are no international patents on its design. Marui opted to take out only japanese patents (not because of any sort of altruistic wish to create an airsoft free for all but more because they had no interest in what was the miniscule non domestic market of the time)

 

thus provided you are making or selling them anywhere bar Japan you are breaking no laws by doing so. You could open a factory right accross the street from the US or UK patent offices with a 30 foot sign outside and nobody would be in a position to give two hoots or have a need to turn a blind eye.

 

systema on the other hand having found themselves burned by maruis patents in Japan and releasing the PTW a lot later in the game may well have had the good sense to go for international patents which will have a good few years left in them In which case this Celcius thingy could find itself with a far harder time when it comes to getting its product sold in western markets.

 

[Inq Eisenhorn]

nopes when bugatti make 1:1 copies of the Model T transmission that are interchangeable with the ones in the model T, stored in a transmission housing thats cast identically to the model T housing held together by the same bolts in the same positions and driven by the same design of crankshaft connected to the same dimension piston with the same piston rings and cylinder head to the point where you could reach into a box of model T spares and find 95 percent of the bits needed to overhaul your bugatti then it would be a clone

 

Which in airsoft terms is what an RS T56 gearbox is when compared to a TM box. As indeed it still would be in terms of patent law even if you were to remove 1mm from the dimensions of every single part so that no direct interchangeability remained with the original, the design and mechanical operation would still be identical.

 

The systema in contrast was set up to avoid in law allegations of being a duplicate of the TM box there is no parts compatibility or interchangability the drivetrain used is a planetary design bb feed doesnt take place using a tappet plate etc. Its got as much in common with a TM box as a 4 stroke chain driven BSA 650 has in common with a 2 stroke crankshaft inducted synchromesh vespa 125. Both might be petrol fueled power sources designed to rotate a single wheel along a road but one is not and wouldnt be regarded as a direct clone of the other. Same goes for TOPs bellows system Asahis BV system versus JACs, escorts blowback system versus TKs, Microsofts Zune versus apples Ipod.

 

take all the 'reality pills' you want but if you're sat in Japan where marui has a patent on its particular gearbox and hop up designs then they wont provide you with any sort of antidote when the big patent infringement injection comes along.

 

I think you're missing the point of my argument. Lets take two car manufacturers, and lets agree that both manufacturers use round wheels on their cars...lets say Manufacturer A came along first with the idea, because, hey, round wheels are more effeciant than say square wheels.....now manufacturer B comes along and says "hey, I want to make a car as well, and you know what...round wheels are kinda fundamental to this concept!".....so maunfacturer B uses round wheels as well.....but to make his product "unique" he makes it such that his wheels are secured to the hub with 6 bolts as opposed tp manufacturer A using 4 bolts.......

 

So what we have are two identical concepts, absolutely no innovation on the part of manufacturer B, but we also have an example where wheels from A will not be interchangable with B.

 

In airsoft terms thats TM and Systema......Systema isn't doing anything that (substantial) in its base concept that the TM didn't pioneer, but its got 6 bolts and therefore, in your eyes, qualifies for an ingenious and innovative company.....cool.

 

Now lets look at Real Sword.....so we agree, we could put TM gears into a RS gearbox....ok, fine, could you put a TM gearbox into a RS AEG? What else could you fit into a RS AEG straight from a TM set-up? what percentage is interchangable between the two AEG types?

 

Now, bearing in mind that RS qualifies in the eyes of the people on this forum for "clone" status...and the likes of ICS, CA, G&P, STAR etc don't.....lets consider how much is interchangable from these companies with TM.....I'd lay money its a whole lot more.

 

Is TSI Armouries a clone company? is Magpul a clone company?

 

Thats the point of my argument...RS doesn't belong in this conversation, and if they do, then lets be fair and involve those companies that fit the bill a whole lot better.....or is it a case of last in, first out?

 

[snorkelman]

except Ive already stated in previous posts that for the purpose of clones CA G&G ICS et all can and should be considered clones too.

 

The only distinction being that the vast bulk of chinese manufacturers do it cheaper and are associated with some ###### poor products in the past, while CA etc have been around for longer are no longer associated with their earlier godawful efforts and nowadays have a snob/familiarity/confidence value attached which leads some folks not to want to see them as the 'marui ripoff bastards' that they are

 

As far as patent law and intelectual propery rights go there IS a massive distinction between TOP/Systema internal designs and the TM design - just the same as theres a massive difference at that level between BSA engine and a Vespa one.

 

Even if there was an item where there was only one single solitary way of doing it that required absolutely identically dimensioned parts laid out in an identical manner, that wouldnt mean someone could come along and say "oh well fundamentally its the only way to do it, I'll just have to copy that existing design".

 

Nopes if someone has a patent on that existing design its just made their patent all that more valuable and their product all that more exclusive. In which case it would be a case of saying "oh well thats the only way to do it so I'll just have to wait untill the patent expires before I can copy that existing design"

 

Now at a fundementals level ie the use of a spring powered piston to compress some air during its return stroke to propel a BB down a barrel goes, then yes both the systema and the TM designs do that but that wasn't what was patented by either company.

 

The patent on something that fundamental to the process would either have been taken out umpteen years ago and long expired (think spring powered airweapons) or never taken up by its originator in the first place (and thus the fundamental similarities would have fallen into preexisting common use) and been unpatentable by the time TM and systema came along.

 

Same goes for the car - the first inventor of a petrol powered compression engine would have a patent on the fundamental operating characteristics of it, so yes had the two engines I cited came out a month after its invention he could have done both for patent infringement - the only reason they didnt infringe that patent is because patents on that basic operatiing principle of a petrol powered combustion engine had long expired before either was released.

 

so TM never patented the fundamental idea of pulling a toothed piston with some gears to compress a spring and then expel a BB using the compressed air from the return stroke Instead what TM patented was their specific implementation of a tri-gear drive train with a mechanically timed tappet plate feed, mechanical semi auto cutt-off and an integrated adjustable hop unit BB feed

 

what systema came up with on the PTW was a planetary drive train with an electronically timed semi auto cut off together with a different feed and hop unit to do that job. As neither was patenting fundamentals (even the planetary drive train is as old as the hills in technology terms) both were sufficiently different in details for systema not to infringe on maruis patents and thus not be a clone of their system.

 

what RS CA ICS G&G and the chinese brands commonly known as the clones (along with Systema on its non PTW kit) have all done is to clone the TM system verbatim (any changes at all purely being in dimensions of parts or the layout/dimensions of the mechbox housing)

 

Thats in direct breach of TMs japanese patents, were they to attempt to sell those items in Japan which with exception of a few cases where some of those manufacs have obtained a licence from TM to do so or the guns have been grey imported in none of them actually do.

 

Course when maruis original patents expire it a different story which is one reason you've seen marui come out with its next generation recoil products - this time taking out international patents on them rather than just Japanese domestic patents.

[terrorist killer]

If someone's saying that RS is a clone company, you haven't done your research

 

RS makes Type 56 & 56-1 not AK47's!

 

But then again, it was cyma to make the first type 97 (i'm not saying it's good but it continues the conversation) But Systema and RS came up with concepts and put them into play.

 

RS, Provides a realistic alternative to people who don't want a PTW.

 

Systema, Provides a line of highly realistic airsoft gun that can also be used for training because of how realistic it is.

 

Now a new company is coming into the market, Celcius, who are trying to provide a cheap alternative to the systema PTW M4A1, We don't know anything about this gun, for all we know it might be completely plastic, including the gearbox

 

Now, what are you going to go for, the systema PTW(Which sounds way better), or the Celcius PTW which sounds like it should be making thermometers to keep watch of how hot your battery is?

 

It's your choice

[Sale]

I agree with you completely. I think the Real Sword guns set the benchmark for other manufacturers of that kind of gun and I applaud their idea of doing a deal with a real firearm factory to obtain parts.

 

My concern is that the quality of RS guns isn't actually representative of the standard they could achieve in any other guns.

I know it's a thread about the Celcius, but I feel that I have to address this since this side-track is a few posts long.

 

For the record, I haven't seen any evidence that RS (Real Sword) would actually use RS (Real Steel) parts in their models. I know the Type 56 inside out as I wrote a detailed cover story in excess off 20 000 characters about it for a Finnish Airsoft magazine, Softaaja. I visited the RS office in Shenzhen and met the management personally, and they explicitly said that the parts are not real, when I asked about the rumours that had been going on.

 

Quite a lot of parts have to be manufactured a bit differently because it's an airsoft gun. For example the outer barrel, receiver, grip, magazine and so on are definitely from an airsoft production line, although they match the cosmetics of a real Type 56 (which I'm familiar with as well) tremendously.

 

The amount of real steel parts they could have used (if they did) is very limited. If they really took that route and used something like the receiver cover and rear sight off a real Type 56, it still wouldn't mean that they are incapable of producing models without aquiring real parts. Just looking at the insides and all the airsoft-specific parts, I am confident that their own production facilities are set up to make the AEGs for this price without the need for outsourcing.

 

Just did a search on the Real Sword website....its actually a Hong Kong based company....so therefore surely it falls into the same cup as Classic Army and G&P....I can find no evidence that Real Sword even belongs in this discussion, as they are certainly not a "clone" manufacturer...have you seen their gearboxes? and the externals they use?

 

In fact I'd be so bold as to say their even less of a clone manufacturer than Systema....

CA, G&P, KA and RS are all exploiting the AEG gearbox design of Tokyo Marui. Just because they are based in Hong Kong doesn't change that. Even Systema used to make a "Complete" series that used a V2 gearbox in the late 90's.

 

However, these companies are welcomed to the market by airsoft enthusiasts, because they offer something that Marui doesn't, and don't kill innovation by dumping the prices. RS have made the "shortened" gearbox among other changes, G&P have a long gearbox for the SR25 and so on. I wouldn't call them "clones", in the sense that the word is used in Airsoft.

 

Even a superior product doesn't always survive on the market. I could mention a few examples of audio/video technology, where a better design was killed off the market. This kind of behaviour of large target groups is something an enthusiastic minority can't change.

 

Speaking of cloned GBB parts, certain companies have blatantly stolen and exploited designs by Firefly, PGC, RCC and so on, so it's not like the cloning isn't happening there.

 

I used to be afraid that the clones would kill Tokyo Marui, but it looks like they are still releasing new models, they are improving the materials and introducing new designs and innovations. This may be because of the competition in the form of clones, or simply the manufacturer's will to make a better product. (Some might cough a bit after reading that...)

 

For the past 8 years of the cloning I've seen, I've developed a thick skin to the fear-mongering of markets dying because manufacturer X does this or that. Also, I've sort of grown away from the "guns I'd like to see in airsoft"-phase. The market is already saturated with the guns I may want to buy, so I'll just focus on upgrades. The sales of upgrade parts will not die no matter how much the host guns are cloned.

 

I guess some of that was on topic, even remotely.

 

-Sale

[snorkelman]

If airsofters just want to call them clones as a term for cheaply produced items from china then yes only the cheap chinese ones (kinda self evidently) would be clones.

 

however when folks want to debate 'clones' in the context of IP rights, patents, low cost exploitation of someone elses R&D etc and start ascribing some sort of relative moral values to them vis the TM mechanicals they're based on then they are all in the same boat and equally deserving of the term.

 

Same applies to clones of systema guns wether it comes from HK, mainland China, Taiwan or the US of A wether it has a CYMA logo on the box or a CA G&G RS or ICS logo on the box, has a 100 dollar price tag or a 500 dollar one - the morals IP rights etc issues remain the same.

 

Otherwise all you end up with is a self fullfilling prophecy and endless circular argument that clones only = cheap and not as reliable, thus if only clones are left all guns will be cheap and not as reliable because if it isnt cheap and not as reliable we arent classing it a clone!

 

[Sale]

You're using the word "moral", which is just as vague as our use of the word "clone.

 

When we talk about legal rights to a design, if TM didn't patent it outside of Japan, there's nothing legally problematic with a Chinese company producing a similar model under their own brand.

 

Outside of the legal context, I like to see good airsoft guns like Real Sword, even though they have exploited (in the moral sense) the invention of Tokyo Marui.

 

Then again, cheap AEGs allow people to set up rental sites with a lesser investment, newcomers to buy their first AEG with less money... These could very well help to make the sport grow. The wider the market, the more space there is for high end niche manufacturers.

 

-Sale

[Sc!zO]

Go back and read my earlier post. People believe that price translates into quality. People also want to buy into exclusivity which is something that everyone does in all walks of life.

 

In the end the 150 dollar clone shoots the same 6mm bb's as the 1500 dollar overpriced TOY.

 

I was talkin' about SYSTEMA PTW - they break when you put it in the water or sth...

If you expect more realism from a gun you can't use PTW's on "more real" games like milsim's etc when sometimes you need to get in the water to move to some important area or where is more likely risk to dirt-up your gun or whatever etc... I hope you get my idea.

Greetings!

[Stealthbomber]

For the record, I haven't seen any evidence that RS (Real Sword) would actually use RS (Real Steel) parts in their models. I know the Type 56 inside out as I wrote a detailed cover story in excess off 20 000 characters about it for a Finnish Airsoft magazine, Softaaja. I visited the RS office in Shenzhen and met the management personally, and they explicitly said that the parts are not real, when I asked about the rumours that had been going on.

As I said when Snork' replied, that IS very good news.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I can't help wondering why RS chose to produce the guns they did. If they produced a similar quality M4, or even an F2000, I'd have much more confidence in their ability to carry airsoft forward.

 

TBH, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you though. When I look around the market these days there's just nothing out there that I really want to buy. I admit, I have a vague interest in the PTW simply cos it offers something in addition to the usual "gears winding a piston" system of other AEGs.

I really wasn't that fussed about the VCRA over here cos, frankly, I'm not that worried about buying another AEG.

 

Cheesy as it might sound, my concerns are genuinely for the future of airsoft in general.

I dread the time when everybody is running around with a DBoys M4 or a JG G36c and telling each other how great they are simply because there's nothing else available to compare them to.

 

I really don't care who makes the guns, be they Japanese or chinese. I'd just like to see more proof that chinese companies are capable of supplying the standard of products we've become accustomed to.

RS aside (not because I'm discounting them. Simply because they've done their bit ) the only examples of chinese new products I'm aware of (slightly modified AKs aside ) are the JLS F2000 & SCAR and the AGM MP40.

The F2000 was a new design inside and out. That's good. It wasn't very well made though.

The SCAR uses a standard V2 gearbox on a standard M4 lower and JLS designed the upper. It wasn't very well made though.

I'll give the MP40 the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a new design (rather than being a copy of a TOP MP40 fitted with the PGC gearbox?) but, even so, it wasn't very well made.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that the segment of the market who doesn't want $80 cheap-and-chearful products needs to see stuff of RS quality from china.

 

Any of you guys know how the Japanese market feels about chinese guns?

[Magsz]

I hope you're not saying that there's something wrong with people buying an expensive toy, when they have the funds. The PTW is overpriced, yea. It could also use better quality metal for the body. But, it also incorporates a lot of functions you can't get from another gun. To some people, that makes it worth it.

 

In THEORY in incorporates alot of things airsofters are willing to pay for. In practice its an over glorified TM AEG that does nothing more than stop firing when the magazine is empty. Dont you dare come back here and even talk about the joke of a bolt release because it doesnt work. The PTW has two things going for it, the mechbox and its extremely nice trigger pull.

 

Having said that, its really only one nice thing after you spend about 70 bucks or so on a "regular" AEG for a mosfet, and an appropriate high quality bettery.

 

 

IMO Half the appeal of the PTW is that it's expensive and therefore exclusive. I won't argue that that it is a good gun, but I don't think the quality justifies it's price point.

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm going to pay more than 1000 for an airsoft gun, it had better be flawless. A lot of users would quickly tell you that it most definitely isn't.

 

Thats what ive been saying all along. 1500 dollars for a gun that comes flawed right out of the box. You can buy a real noveske for that money and the quality of the externals exceeds that of the PTW by a billion and a half miles. Yes, im aware of economies of scale and all of that garbage but im pretty sure noveske produces about the same quantity of guns as systema. In fact, Systema may even produce more. Also, please dont bring up the cost of the electronics because believe me, that stuff costs PEANUTS. Yes, im also aware of the stupidity of comparing a real gun to a toy gun but still, from a pure materials and production standpoint the argument does hold some water.

[Panzergraf]

Chinese stuff is getting more and more high-end.

CYMA now makes a metal and wood AKM, D-boys have gone from plastic receivers to metal AR-15's with trademarks and steel bodied AK's,

Unicorn produce only full steel AK's (that I know of), JG have started doing metal bodies, AGM makes the best stock AEG MP-40's (not much competition from Top though) and some HK416's that look OK, A&K have jumped on the AR-15 bandwagon, again with all metal and one piece barrels.

 

I still remember when a metal+wood (even potmetal and cheap wood) AK would be considered a very expensive, high end custom weapon, and the same could be said for AR-15's.

 

Just like CA, ICS and all the other high-end metal AEG makers pretty much pushed Marui out of the loop, I think these new "high end clones" (new term?) will push the cheap plastic stuff out of the market.

Like, who buys a WELL/UTG MP5 now that you can get a metal one from JG for just a few dollars more?

Who buys the old cm 0.28 now that both CYMA and others make better guns for what can still be considered cheap?

Where did the WELL R6 go?

 

Calling Chinese guns clones for no other reason than that they have Marui-designed mechboxes is wrong, as they're not just clones anymore.

They're high-end airsoft guns in their own right, just without the inflated price tag.

 

 

/repetative rant

[Shriven]

They're not high end tbh... they're high end clones. You take a JG AUG, and a CA AUG. Now, although the JG AUG is VERY nice ( I have one, and I love it long time), it's not quite the same quality as the CA one. It hasn't got the trades. The paint isn't as good. Just little niggly details. Still a great gun, especially for the price, but it remains a clone.

If this PTW clone can get close to what the Systema PTW can do ( when its working) then I'll be 1) Gobsmacked 2) Happy.

We've never come across this company before, so who knows wtf they can do.

JG are upping their game, not just by metal bodying all their guns ( which already have very good geaboxes, although slightly poor shimming) but by asking us what shiny toys we want them to build next, and as Vanderer has suggested ( although of course, it may all be lies, damn lies) they might innovate... and if they do, then I won't consider their guns clones anymore. They'll have entered a different league by making their own, quality shooter.

[Stealthbomber]

Chinese stuff is getting more and more high-end.

CYMA now makes a metal and wood AKM, D-boys have gone from plastic receivers to metal AR-15's with trademarks and steel bodied AK's...

 

They're not high end tbh... they're high end clones. You take a JG AUG, and a CA AUG. Now, although the JG AUG is VERY nice ( I have one, and I love it long time), it's not quite the same quality as the CA one. It hasn't got the trades. The paint isn't as good. Just little niggly details. Still a great gun, especially for the price, but it remains a clone.

 

That's exactly what I've been saying for the last 2 or 3 pages.

 

Sure, the DBoys M4s are ok, especially for the money but (no offence to anybody who owns one) they're a LONG way from being high quality.

Go look at pictures on a DBoys M4. See how you can see the gearbox through the gap between the 2 halves of the receiver?

That doesn't happen with an ICS M4, or a CA M15, never mind a G&P or KWA one.

 

Before I get accused of nit-picking, I'm sure that no matter what I say about a particular gun, somebody is going to post to say it doesn't matter.

Great. Maybe not to you. In that case, go buy your $80 gun.

I really don't mean to sound snobbish but it seems that, even in the short time that chinese guns have been around, we have a generation of airsofters who simply don't know any better.

 

I mean, sorry but, if you think a DBoys metal M4 is high quality, you are in need of some SERIOUS educating.

 

[ardrummer292]

Cheesy as it might sound, my concerns are genuinely for the future of airsoft in general.

I dread the time when everybody is running around with a DBoys M4 or a JG G36c and telling each other how great they are simply because there's nothing else available to compare them to.

 

Honestly, that isn't a problem. As long as we have vets in the game, the ACM kids will learn how inferior their "awesomesauce n3w gnus" are compared to tuned-up TMs and the like. Don't get me wrong, 2 of my last 3 guns have been ACM, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the value of high-quality -- and therefore expensive -- rifles. Once I start getting my paychecks from the Navy, one of my first purchases will be a tuned-up TM M14 with a G&P EBR Mod 1 stock.

 

Another thing to think about is... well, maybe the clones aren't that bad. Sure, they don't have the expected lifespan or precise tolerances of a TM/VFC/G&P/whatever, but they perform like many players want them to right out of the box. No tinkering about with upgrade parts means more sales. Besides, TM's primary marketplace focus is on Japan (where they don't have a 400fps limit), so it shouldn't be that much of a sales loss. There will always be anti-ACM/fanboys/snobs who prefer to spend inordinate amounts of their money on toy guns.

 

No offense intended to anyone, just speaking my mind.

[Aitch]

I like my d-boys M4, full metal,cheap, yet i do expect it to blow up when being used , bbody gap is annoying, but not importsnt, brittle ###### wiring is my main issue with it, but it's a looker, not a shooter, i have my G3 for that and clones to fannying around with

 

I would have a clone PTW if they are any kop, although I wouldn't give systema over a grand for one, i'd have several CA armalites first

[Magsz]

As has been discussed before, hopefully the cycle will be that the clones come first and then comes innovation.

 

IF it doesnt then the sport is probably going to die or everyone is going to be running around with five year old replicas because no one is innovating.

 

I cant believe im saying this but if the only guns available for purchase are TM's and chinese clones of TM's in the next ten years im going to be a really unhappy guy.

 

I see the merit in owning a dboys gun, its a great gun for the price you're paying. Still i cant help but feel sorry for VFC. They did the R&D, they designed the gun. I personally will always buy VFC but thats only because im in a financial position to do so.

 

Having cheaper chinese guns on the market doesnt bother me. Everyone is free to buy whatever they want. Now, having said that, having cheaper guns on the market that may potentially stop current innovators from innovating scares the living daylights out of me. I really fear for VFC's future. Ive said this before and i still believe it. If VFC reduced their MSRP by 100 USD they would rule the market. Why buy a clone for 150 when you can have the VFC for 100 dollars more?