Celcius PTW

[terrorist killer]

If you've got a systema m4a1, sell it now for a bit more than this or you won't sell it ever!

 

I hope that celcius make's an M16a2 and that sniper which systema didn't make

[screamin_weasel]

Well if anycase a clone will have some errors and imperfections involved. I'm sure that even most Chinese based companies can't get a TM switch right, so I'm also assuming the electronics used in the CTW is just as bogus. Not to mention we'll have kids trying to replace the FETs more often in the CTWs. And also because it is literally 500.00USD, I'm sure lots of sacrifice in material is going to be involved. So maybe it could be made with way more lead content and much more brittle than the already brittle diecast body the Systema uses. I doubt the Celcius CTW uses CNC. And if the electronic parts, FETs break then I don't think Celsius will even make spare parts and at the end customers who bought it will cry to Systema asking for parts or else for those are completely new to PTWs will just have a 500.00USD clone paperweight.

 

i think you're just looking for a reason to *badgeress* on it because you're gutted.

 

every post you've made you've mentioned how "its probably going to break, its probably not as good as the systema etc". at the end of the day, it could be JUST AS GOOD as the systema, but its clearly not something you're ready to appreciate. it cuold be better, who knows. nobody does. China cloned the MP5K, and it ###### all over the TM one. china can make guns properly, just depends if they can be arsed. from what i've read about the sytema PTW, i wouldn't spend $500 on that.

 

i was one of the guys who had a CA249 before the A&K came out. it sucked a cheaper clone came out, but mostly because i was abotu to sell my CA. i had my CA249 for over a year before the clone came out, nearly 2, and considering the awesomeness that came out of the end of the barrel of it, i couldnt care less about the price difference, as i got 2 years extra for my cash.

[Hairy Potter]

Well , time to save up. Love the assembly. OMG So sick! Excited for the release. Only problem , $63 bucks :-(

[my_plague_666]

i agree with S_W, you moaning PTW owners don't seem to appreciate that it is no different to any other clone. they nicked someone else's idea, produced it and sold it for less. its not the first time that a unique gun has been cloned, look at the BE type-89, you didnt see the TM users kicking up this much of a stink. you are NOT the first people this has happened to. litterally a week after i bought my VFC AKSU all of the clones started being announced.

 

its life, get over it

[Marcel]

PTWs don't work (as they should) under real conditions and clones of it will never work as good as the original. But for normal airsoft players why not. There are rumors about PTW clones for over 2 years now.

[1st_shooter]

Well as another ptw owner myself at 1st i was like oh noes'! But i dont see how this is gonna be bad at all, Exisiting PTW owners will hopefully be able to get cheaper mags/parts etc, and ACM hoarders who previously couldn't afford a PTW can now jump on the band waggon

 

[terrorist killer]

seems the only systema liable to buy is the PTW5A4, and thats not even out yet

 

man that's a hard choice, an mp5 which has a three round burst or a m4a1 for half the price

 

so if you like CQB and you got a load of RS parts around you might as well get the mp5

 

And for every one else, you've got a perfect DMR starter kit

[1st_shooter]

It is out mate, keep up

[tome]

How many rounds DO you go through between reloads? 20 PTW mags!? You're dumping eight hicaps every game? Is the tint too dark on your goggles to find a target before holding the trigger? Can you not hear your opponents' screams for mercy over the whine of your motor as you pour rounds out at them? I don't see how repeating this argument about magazine size is contributing to the discussion.

 

yeah.... i use 8 hicaps......

 

Well personally i use about 1.5 hicaps per round, but really it depends on the game. How long it is, what situation you're in. Either way, each to their own about how much ammo they spend but i have seen people with 6 or more hicaps (that's not to say they use all of them every game). Hell if you can afford it why not?

 

BTW - nice way to start your posting career in Arnies mate...... I don't see how your insinuation that i play poorly, is of any contribution to this thread at all. Have a nice day matey

[Stealthbomber]

by eventually getting round to selling guns with an apparently higher spec for a slightly higher price.. their original efforts were ###### poor. The only real difference is where in their development cycle each sector is at while folks do their comparisons.

That was my point.

 

People always felt like (and often still do) there were reasons to buy one OR the other.

Do you buy a CA gun which has a metal body and shoots at 330fps but might self-destruct in a week or do I buy a TM gun and then buy the bits to upgrade it?

 

These days, if Chinese products ARE perceived as being as reliable as their more expensive counterparts OR the price differential is enough to persuade people to buy them regardless, it creates different market conditions than back in the old "CA vs TM" days.

 

Systema PTW wasn't aimed to airsoftplayers market - basic target was government agencies. in these customer segment cost of gun intself doesn't really matters. what matters is 3-5 years TCO.

You reckon?

 

Just cos Systema called it a "training weapon" and gave a bunch of them to Khyber Associates for free, in return for a couple of videos, I think you're kidding yourself if you think the PTW is anything other than an airsoft gun.

 

In the years that the PTW's been out, nobody has ever found it in use with any military or LE agency anywhere.

 

JLS F200

JLS SCAR-L

GALAXY MP5-K RIS

CYMA AKM

CYMA AKS74u

ELEMENT PBS-1

AGM MP40

JG HK416

 

And the fact that CYMA puts metal bushings and tightbores in thier Gearboxes. Better than the TM for less cost.

 

Oh, come on!

 

Swapping a few cosmetic bits around here and there, or engraving new trademarks on a receiver hardly counts as "innovating" does it?

I'm talking about situations where the chinese companies would have had to make clay models and machine parts to create a prototype.

 

At the moment there simply isn't a gun on the market that I want to buy. Anywhere.

Before I put too much faith in the chinese to steal airsoft production away from HK, Taiwan and Japan, I'd just like to see them produce something that gives me a bit of confidence that, one day, they might produce a gun I'll think about buying.

 

A variety of AK's, fitted with different stocks or barrels, or whatever, doesn't really give me that confidence.

[Aitch]

Cheaper PTW is all good, just because you spent £800-1200 on a toy gun does not give you the right to bemoan cloners, they serve a purpose, all that buying this over priced ###### does is make the manufacturer think they are justified in their pricing, pfft, I'd want it to work for more than a few months

 

Pick your toys up (even the £1200 ones) put them back in the pram and stop moaning

 

I'm reading this and it reminds me of the arguements over the past 18 or so months,

replace PTW with Multicam and CTW with multisham.................

 

How could we let airsoft get so snobby ?

 

 

[Nihil_75]

Your forgetting something:

 

The great thing about this is not the fact we can get a systema clone, its the fact that the clones are "moving up" in technology.

 

No matter if you think clones are good or bad to the airsoft market, the fact is they create diversity, and this diverse line of products

will now include systema's orbital gearbox, a major step forward in technology compared to the dated V2 variants..

 

I for one would very much like to get my hands on one of those gearboxes, and maybe this will usher a new era in airsoft mechanics.

[DarkLite]

Oh, come on!

 

Swapping a few cosmetic bits around here and there, or engraving new trademarks on a receiver hardly counts as "innovating" does it?

I'm talking about situations where the chinese companies would have had to make clay models and machine parts to create a prototype.

 

At the moment there simply isn't a gun on the market that I want to buy. Anywhere.

Before I put too much faith in the chinese to steal airsoft production away from HK, Taiwan and Japan, I'd just like to see them produce something that gives me a bit of confidence that, one day, they might produce a gun I'll think about buying.

 

A variety of AK's, fitted with different stocks or barrels, or whatever, doesn't really give me that confidence.

 

1) The JG HK416 uses a propeitary frontend which is compatible with standard TM/G&P style recievers, allowing for a HK417 to be made - CA25 reciever and HK416 frontend.

 

2) The CYMA AK lines come with: 6.04mm tightbores, 6mm metal bushings and metal bodies as stock now. The AKM is the only one of it's kind available at the moment - the Ino and RWS AKMs are not built a la TM AK47 style as the CYMA AKM is.

 

3) The AGM MP40 has no parallels anywhere else. The gearbox design is unique.

 

4) The CYMA AKs74u has a unique body design.

 

As for buying AEGs, these days I'd buy a CYMA or JG over an equivalent TM model.

 

The price is cheaper. The gearboxes are now just as good 95% of the time, and in the case of the CYMA AKs I'd honestly have no quams about skirmishing with one right out of the box. the JGs I still have doubts about their shimming sometimes, but otherwise I consider them good.

 

And as shocking as it might be to say so - just because you don't have confidence in a brand does not immediately condone every product they've ever made to the scrapheap.

[3vi1-D4n]

And as shocking as it might be to say so - just because you don't have confidence in a brand does not immediately condone every product they've ever made to the scrapheap.

 

And thats Darklites lesson for today folks

 

 

FYI: The IP rights concept came from Law of the commons, which is an interpretation of canon (church) law, which is fairly biased and subjective religious interpretation as it was in the 13th century. Mixing the religious and cultural perspective into this, it is fair to say its centuries of "big balls" ethnocentric thinking that has derived into *this* thread

 

As you can see why IP rights aren't all that important in China.

 

Hey all fun More clones the better, since there is still a lead time by R&D from companies of about 1-2 years before they hit the streets. Its the world getting more global and competitive.

 

It wasn't that long ago that China tried to close its doors on the western world, and got the *beep* kicked out of us (re: Opium wars, when we tried to prevent the Brits and Americans from forceably importing opium into China, and since the Chinese prevented its imports good old Brit Navy pounded the ###### out of us and took HK). Now we *badgeress* about Chinese clone guns, tibet and Human rights LOL

[Stealthbomber]

And as shocking as it might be to say so - just because you don't have confidence in a brand does not immediately condone every product they've ever made to the scrapheap.

Jesus, this is getting hard.

 

You know, in pretty much EVERY F**KING POST I've made in this thread, I've said I WOULD (and do) buy chinese products.

 

The only points I'm making are as follows:-

1) People who say chinese stuff doesn't affect sales of other companies are talking nonsense.

2) I'd like to seem more revolutionary (as opposed to evolutionary) products made by chinese companies.

 

#1: If the chinese companies begin to make parts for GBBs, for example, I suspect it's only a matter of time before the high-end Japanese companies feel the pinch. Big time.

I'm sure there will be floods of people saying how they'd always buy an SD slide for their Mk23 rather than a cheap chinese slide but, you know what?

That's bullsh*t.

There's maybe 4 people on this forum who would actually do that. The rest of us would go out and buy the chinese Mk23 slide and then tell people that, yeah, it is actually very good quality.

I'm not against the chinese companies doing this (as long as the quality IS good). I'm just making the point that a lot of existing companies WILL suffer when this happens and some will go under

And, if the companies that suffer are making original products that the chinese copy, that brings us to...

 

#2: Before we all get too heavily into the whole "our new benefactors" thing, I'd like for the chinese to prove they are actually capable of supporting and evolving our hobby. As I say, I'd just like to see one or two high quality NEW chinese designs that prove to me that they can work on their own to create new stuff.

I like my F2000 but, given the choice of guns of that quality forever, or sticking with Jap manufacturers, I gotta say that I'd have to think about it for a while before giving you an answer.

I'd just like to see chinese manufacturers actually DO something to show they will improve rather than us all sitting here SAYING they'll improve in time cos, you know what? The chinese tools I can buy in Argos today are just as terrible as the chinese tools I could buy back in 1980. They haven't improved.

 

Now, if only a chinese company would start making decent knock-offs of the HI-Capa frame and Kimber slide before I start remodelling mine, I'll be a happy bunny.

[hitchhiker]

Is this the end of Systema PTWs??? Is this how Systema is going to end, with a clone PTW stealing Systema's market?! This is outrageous. This is MADNESS! Am I the only one not liking this? This is seriously dirty.

Relax, Systema still makes the most expensive production aeg on the market. That has always been their best marketing gimmick and I don't see it failing them now.

[3vi1-D4n]

Well it really depends what you focus on.

 

Real steel AK and MP5s are rough as guts, so are Steyrs and what not, and external finish are not really what we should be judging replicas on.

 

The finish on the Dboys AKS are close enough to the real ones. They are a light years up from the CM AK LPEGs of the yesteryears, and a moon's distance from the first CYMA 028s.

 

They HAVE made a contribution to the industry and certainly our sport. Most people today start with a Chinese gun. I myself have owned everything from JLS to VFCs and I skirmish with a $60 BE HK33 with nothing more than an M120 spring and a new battery slapped into it. Why? Cos even top of the line VFC/Star require work out of the box and so do Chinese guns to get them skirmishable, the amount of effort to get them working to the same level is similar.

 

 

 

 

[michaelmike]

Practically everything in Japan is basically "copied and improved". I think they're only indigenous creation is anime....

 

J/K!

 

 

Nooooooo....... I think you forgot what's right in front your nose: AIRSOFT,GBB and AEG.

Just to give credit where credit is due.

 

[raito]

small news update, some pre-orders are already cropping up in my forum, the pre-order is about $475 USD, lets wait and see when the actual thing actually arrive in a couple months time...

[monkey530]

Lol my view of PTW in the military.

Training:

"Sir, I can't reach them."

-"Switch out your cylinder."

"Sir, I can't seem to reach them still."

-"Adjust your hop up."

 

In Battle:

"Hey, where is my hop on my M4?"

-"What are you talking about?"

"How do I swap cylinders to increase my range and killing potential?"

-"What the hell is wrong with you?"

"This is how I learned how to fight."

-"So you actually thought the PTW was useful?Dumbass."

 

LOL.

 

On a serious note, people should quit complaining and arguing and what until the thing comes out. Time will tell, speculation gets us no where. So save your cash, stick with a hurricane body for now or whatever your using, and just wait.

 

I just hope they send it out to well respected reviewers so that they can get some sort of reputation, and not have some nubix cube tell us it is so l337 hax0r and has aimbot installed in the thing lol.

[chas]

The mighty gods will fall, the mighty gods will fall.... Im so happy we dont have that many Systema-beeatches here in spain.

 

I dont think I neeed one of these, but congrats to those who want a PTW, if this finally is good.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

I agree with Stealthbomber....sure theres some brand snobbery going on here, I'm sure, but my, and it seems other peoples biggest fear is the death of innovation.

 

Imagine a hobby like airsoft where companies like VFC, ICS, G&P, TM, Systema, STAR are all things of the past, and the only replacement is CYMA, Dboys, JG, etc....but at exactly the same quality as they are now and selling exactly the same models....imagine this statement in the time-frame context of the next 10 YEARS!

 

Just to add something else....me and few a friends were (are) seriously looking at a project we started looking at about four months ago, we're basically looking at developing a new airsoft rifle...SPECIFIC to airsoft. One of the biggest "worries" on our list was (is) what happens if our design (product) is successful and we start seeing clones. Its enough of a worry that we need to consider it at the early design stages.....thats how real the clone issue is.

 

Big companies can usually swallow this risk, but small innovators can't.....

[AnotherJesus]

2) I'd like to seem more revolutionary (as opposed to evolutionary) products made by chinese companies.

 

 

I realise you said more, but to defend China, Real Sword have come up with a number of new AEG's. That in my opinion are revolutionary. Having designed the internals around the external confinements, rahter than building a body onto a mechbox. I would buy a Real Sword product with no qualms, much the same as I was buying a TM.

 

As for strait forward clones, I don't feel it's currently possible to get a gun equivilent of a G&P in overal quality, from clone parts alone. And it would cost about as much as a new G&P if you could. So I don't see that i'll be buying another soon.

[Dentonboy]

I don't own a Systema product. I've always thought that spending $1000+ on what is essentially a toy is a little excessive. My eyes watered when I bought my XBOX 360. Do I have sympathy for Systema owners? No. Do I think it is out of order for a Chinese company to copy a product? No, unless it is a patent violation, and then I have a problem with it. There are a lot of companies worried about treading on the Tiger's tail when it comes to bringing the Chinese to rights about patent violation; because they use cheap Chinese labour and facilities to make the blue-chip products the Chinese will inevitably copy.

 

Until a Western or Japanese company grows the rocks big enough to stand up to the Chinese over patent violations, then I will have no sympathies for the big companies who are stiffed by clone making companies. Maybe they shouldn't exploit cheap labour.

 

I don't buy clone or copy Nike shoes, or TAG watches, I buy the originals for the quality. It is a buyer's market, you pays your money, you takes your choices. If the Celcius clone PTW is a lemon, then Systema's market shouldn't take too much of a hit. I am very brand loyal because you are almost certain of the proven quality time and time again (like Nike trainers, Carhartt jeans, Kelloggs cereal, Heinz canned foods), and hopefully Systema have made products that are good enough to keep a loyal band of consumers.

 

If they haven't, and their core consumers go off after a pretty newcomer from South-East Asia.

 

Well,

 

That'll learn them.

[Connery]

To be completely honest, this doesn't phase me in the least. It seems to be the same as the other Chinese guns: Sure, they're cheaper and they come with all the bits and bobs you need, but its quality is nowhere near that of a Japanese gun. I'd have to see this gun in person and actually field it before I can admit if the gun is good or not. I haven't had a single problem with my PTW, even after I loaned it to a person who seems to break every gun he uses. So for me, unless this gun is anywhere near on par to a PTW, I will continue to laugh at the Chinese guns trying to be better than the Japanese.