Quality of airsoft in comparison to real steel

[ARadam6696]

If you buy a squirt gun that looks like a real gun can you make it fire real bullet? Its exactly the same way with airsoft. Anyone that has looked at the internals would know that. Itd be alot easier just to stick a bullet down a plumbing pipe and hit it with a nail at the back. Im sure the result would be the same.

 

I own a VFC AIMS and its really all I want in an airsoft gun. I really can think of a way through normal skirmishing to break it and unless you want to shoot at a crazy velocity you really dont need more than your standard V.3 gearbox. If you want more than I suggest getting some RS handguards or something along those lines.

[STRELOK]

I have said this before i will say it again.

 

 

IF somebody wants to get a assult rifle and do a massacre, HE WILL FIND A WAY, banning assult rifles wont prevent it.

 

IF somebody wants to Buy a high powered sniper and assassinate a politictian They Will find a way, seting up counter snipers wont scare them away.

 

Point is If some one realy wants to do something, silly things like Logic, Understanding, and Laws dont apply. The L.U.Ls. rule is true for anything. People find ways. Making pot illegal hasnt stoped Stoners.

 

The L.U.Ls. effect has allowed the black Market to operate in your own back yard.

 

 

So if someone wants to convert an airsoft gun to fire real rounds HE WILL FIND A WAY!!!

 

 

 

*End mini rant

[snorkelman]

"Making pot illegal hasnt stoped Stoners"

 

aye but nor do they generally attempt to take on the task of modifying lettuce so that it produces the same effect, when theres a far simpler option of growing illegal hash..

[Azulsky]

For the same reason its easier to get a firearm than it is to engineer one in the back of your shed.

[RC-1138]

Ranger, you might want to ask your armorer to actually fix your M4 if you're having that many problems with it.

 

A properly cleaned and maintained high quality AR can go several thousand rounds without issue. Sure, a light primer strike or other malfunction requiring immediate action may happen very now and then but every three to four magazines? Thats excessive.

...

Tell me. Have you seen these kinds of things during your term of service? Sure, bolts break, other small items break but colossal weapons platform failures? I dont know about that.

 

This isn't just mine, it's every other guys on the firing line's. We're all so proficient at SPORTS we can do it in our sleep. The fact is military grade weapons are put together by the lowest bidder (IE colt) and as such suck. I own an M15A4 fixed sliding stock carbine from Armalite (16" version) and it NEVER jams the way the POS guns we have here do. Hell their so crappy we got guys who's rifles go off on burst when switched semi. It's the nature of the beast though. Colt sucks as an arms manufacture IMHO, or at least it does now (I cant comment on how they were in the past). The only guns we have in our arms room that seem to work near flawlessly are the few M4's that are Panther Arms, go figure (I didnt know they had Army contracts till I saw about 5 of them in person with the "Government Property" printed on them).

As far as parts breaking off go's, thus far I've seen cracked handguards, a few pistol grips fall off/crack, a stock that "spun" (not sure HOW that happens but the stock would spin around (M16))

 

To compare this to an actual firearm, take a look at the Noveske/Magpul limited edition AR 15. You can pick up (or could before the election) a quality bare bones AR 15 for around $800. The limited edition gun was around $3,000 and all 50 sold in a day. The lower alone is currently on gunbroker for >1,500. This, to me, demonstrates that people are interested in going above and beyond what is required from time to time.

 

The same morons that did that were the same guys that drool over HK stuff. Don't get me wrong, HK makes great looking/feeling guns, but $5000-$10,000 for some of their weapons, notably the HK416 upper, IS NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFIED. I can buy a piston set for ANY AR, drop it in, and turn even the crappiest AR into a champ for less than $250. And I LOVE the HK416 (rather the over setup, less the manufacture though) and I was lucky enough to fire one alot prior to joining up and I can honestly say as far as feel goes, for something totted as the "Be all, end all AR" it was nice, but that's about it. With a freefloat RAS, mortified pistol grip, and a piston I could get about the same feel. It's still just a .223 after all.

Noveske is a fairly nice manufacture, but like HK they don't make anything extraordinary, they just make a few nice guns, slightly above standard, and charge HUGELY above standard price which in turn "legitimizes" the belief that their weapons are the sh*t. In short, they arn't. Their just a new rendition on an old design. I have more respect for the HK G36 series than the 416. Likewise I think the Magpul SMG is a clever new idea (despite the fact it's a move in the opposite direction force-on-force users are looking in weapons), however a retooled version of the same AR isn't worth the huge jump in price.

 

I am working with a couple friends to develop a gearbox that is more to our liking and when its done I will post pictures. This threads purpose was to see why nobody was making Noveske/Magpul quality airsoft guns and I have received some pretty good answers. I guess the next question is: Does anybody else feel the way I do?

 

To this, good luck with that. Enjoy your "swiss army watch" gun, which when it breaks down, and don't kid yourself IT WILL BREAK DOWN (it's the nature of a MECHANICAL device) it will likely cost 3x as much to fix and be incredibly awkward to do than if you went with generic parts that IMHO are enough for airsofting. More than that they do a downright great job. I've used the same CA M15A4 carbine for about 6 years at this point. ITS NEVER BROKEN ONCE. I've put 100,000+ rounds though it. I replace parts BEFORE they break and avoid catastrophic stoppages. For the record, you have to do that with real guns to. Your never going to get 100,000 rounds through an M16/M4 barrel, I don't care WHO makes it (even the benevolent HK416 is rated, IIRC, to 50,000 rounds max which is VERY high for an AR barrel.) Hell my Remington 700 varmint, .300 win mag is only rated IIRC to about 2000 rounds, and I'd challenge someone to speak ill of the quality of that gun. The fact is in the case of an airsoft gun your dealing with HEAVY mechanical demands. About the only thing, mechanical, I can think of on short notice that has more consistent heavy demands is an engine (I'll mention guns in a moment). We're talking 4 (5 if you count the piston) RELATIVELY SMALL gears moving at a very rapid speed over sustained periods. A flat gear (the piston) that has to be made of plastic overall (maybe steel toothed but stress is relative) which will crack eventually, O-Rings, which are the bane of mechanical/any device(s) (hell they blew up the f'n space shuttle), and finally a barrel which is subject to relatively quick moving irregular projectiles (look at high end bb's up close, their NOT perfect spheres) over 10's of thousands of rounds. NO MATTER HOW WELL you make this gun IT WILL STILL BREAK EVENTUALLY.

In real guns they've got it worse. Corrosive gases, trapped gases, explosive forces, cycling damage (wear) and HEAT damage (one of the biggest killers to a mechanical device) all spell the doom of even the most high end weapon system eventually.

I mentioned a similar problem in my "range rant" where there is a WIDE SPREAD, nearly worldwide, common problem where individuals cannot accurately gauge distance and hence make claims, in both directions as to what their gun's range is (claiming 200 feet when it's only 150 or 75 feet when it's 120) well there's also this similar issue where people have this over idealized mental concept of the "perfect" airsoft gun (and by extension) real steel weapon system. The fact is, due to the very nature of their being, both are going to break after time, none are immune to this, not without RIGOROUS (and I've done it) preventive measures. There is no firearm or airsoft gun out there that can just pour out rounds without expecting ill effects on the overall system.

That's about as far into this I'm going into this for now. Yet again another.... interesting "question" elicited a rant from me (something I've thought about in passing but never really organized) so I guess this has been useful. You wana go spend $2000 on the uber gun, go ahead, we're all impressed. I bet I'd still be able to get you out with a spring pistol though

[wazzy1013]

if you really have that much of a problem with the cheap pot metal bodies and a nice amount of cash sitting around, go out and buy a PTW. Several users have modified both the upper and lower receivers to fit the PTW gearbox, along with using real ris/ras units, optics, stocks, sights......From my personal view, if you need the feel of that, either do that or take up RS shooting. Just my .02

[Mat]

"Making pot illegal hasnt stoped Stoners"

 

aye but nor do they generally attempt to take on the task of modifying lettuce so that it produces the same effect, when theres a far simpler option of growing illegal hash..

 

Glad you went for generally there:

 

http://thecrit.com/2008/10/05/florida-bioc...-tree-with-thc/

[RC-1138]

if you really have that much of a problem with the cheap pot metal bodies and a nice amount of cash sitting around, go out and buy a PTW. Several users have modified both the upper and lower receivers to fit the PTW gearbox, along with using real ris/ras units, optics, stocks, sights......From my personal view, if you need the feel of that, either do that or take up RS shooting. Just my .02

 

He makes a good point. If your so worried about "feel" of an airsoft gun then you qualify as the perfect customer of a Systema... about all their good for is making it tough to tell the difference between a replica and realsteel.

[Frakk2k]

I guess the new GBB guns are pretty similar to real guns? They are 1:1 scale aswell?

[Gigueand]

This obsession with "feel" and "looks" is exactly why airsoft guns offer such mediocre performance. Any time a new Armalite comes out everyone whines about how unoriginal it is, but next to no one complains that the gearbox is utterly unimpressive. Unlike airsoft which is 90% about looks, paintball has stressed performance. The result is $150 guns with electronic triggers with multiple modes of fire. How many $150 airsoft guns do we see that have something similar? How many $150 guns even have the MOSFET potential to do such a thing? Only a few JG guns even have MOSFETs and those do not offer the same performance as the SW-Computer. Even our GBBs lag way behind any similar style paintball guns. Why is it that a 2003 Tippmann A-5 can have an electronic trigger which is essentially a simple electronic sear-tripper, but no GBB have incorporated anything similar?

 

External innovation trumps internal innovation in almost every case in airsoft. The result is a great strides in the externals of our rifles (see the newest AKs, for example), but stagnation in terms of internals innovation.

[RC-1138]

What do you want an airsoft gun to do that it doesnt do already?

[aznsk8s87]

harder faster better stronger

 

edit:// seriously, it's a freakin' toy. If you want to use "real" quality weapons (which, incidentally, are far from perfect), go to a shooting range or buy a real rifle.

 

If you have that much money to drop on an airsoft gun, you should probably do something else with all that cash.

[the.jaguar]

I guess the new GBB guns are pretty similar to real guns? They are 1:1 scale aswell?

 

 

not quite... but at least the internal mechanism is somewhat similar to the real deal.

 

skyclark, why do you have to bother with the gearbox anyway? what makes the difference if it's steel or plastic? it's still a toy you know.

 

If you're looking for something more realistic why don't you get yourself a decent GBB rifle?

[tome]

yep i echo the suggestion that the OP is a perfect PTW customer

 

I do wonder how much of a beating a PTW that has a modified real AR upper and lower receiver can take. It might not be that much short of a real AR as the receiver body protects the gearbox. The only thing to worry about would be water ingress messing up the electronics

[skyclark]

This obsession with "feel" and "looks" is exactly why airsoft guns offer such mediocre performance. Any time a new Armalite comes out everyone whines about how unoriginal it is, but next to no one complains that the gearbox is utterly unimpressive. Unlike airsoft which is 90% about looks, paintball has stressed performance. The result is $150 guns with electronic triggers with multiple modes of fire. How many $150 airsoft guns do we see that have something similar? How many $150 guns even have the MOSFET potential to do such a thing? Only a few JG guns even have MOSFETs and those do not offer the same performance as the SW-Computer. Even our GBBs lag way behind any similar style paintball guns. Why is it that a 2003 Tippmann A-5 can have an electronic trigger which is essentially a simple electronic sear-tripper, but no GBB have incorporated anything similar?

 

External innovation trumps internal innovation in almost every case in airsoft. The result is a great strides in the externals of our rifles (see the newest AKs, for example), but stagnation in terms of internals innovation.

 

 

This is what I am talking about.

 

I don't need the gun to do much that its already doing, I just want the object to be nicer. I would like to see companies innovating rather thansimply replicating Marui gearboxes. Each innovation, electronic triggers for example, doesn't do a tremendous amount to change the gun but each innovation adds to the whole.

 

I understand these are just toys and dont "need" to be better but I would like a great gun for the same reason people buy nice mechanical watches over cheap digitals or a super-car over an economy car. I have real guns and enjoy shooting them but I cant skirmish with them, they are much more expensive to feed, and I cant shoot them indoors or in the back yard.

 

Im not necessarily looking for exact replicas of real guns or trying to fit airsoft components into real receivers. I would like a company to produce an airsoft gun that has an excellent level of quality and innovation in both the internals and externals.

 

Im surprised that so many of the people who replied to this thread are satisfied with whats on the market.

[skyclark]

The PTW looks like it might have the level of quality that I'm looking for. I haven't had a chance to open one up and mess with the gearbox but it looks promising.

[heroshark]

I think the simple reason any company makes things to wear out ...So we have to by more . Sure ,they could produce a fully machined GB, but it wouldn't wear out .For exsample ,I have a drill my dad bought in the early 60s ,and its still going strong. Now if you got a drill now ,would you expect it to last 50-60 odd years . Its the throw away culture we now live in thats to blame

[RC-1138]

Im not necessarily looking for exact replicas of real guns or trying to fit airsoft components into real receivers. I would like a company to produce an airsoft gun that has an excellent level of quality and innovation in both the internals and externals.

 

Im surprised that so many of the people who replied to this thread are satisfied with whats on the market.

 

To address this:

 

Then buy a PTW for the 3rd time. It's supper high external and... well the internals arn't impressive without work (I've owned one), no more so then a slightly beefed up Marui. but easier to work with. And if price is something that you REQUIRE to be an "indication" of quality, at $1500-$2000 that's about as high as you get on a "mainstream" airsoft gun.

 

And the reason why many of us are satisfied with what's on the market is for two VERY CLEAR REASONS.

 

A) We, or at least I, understand that I get what I pay for and if I'm paying a toy price I'm getting a toy gun. Even $2000 for a systema is still a toy price compared to a real gun and as such I expect THAT level of quality out of it

 

and b ), and I try to highlight this as often as I can, airsoft guns in their current "standard" form don't require any "innovation" IMHO. They get the job done. With average engagement distances of 75-100 feet with AEG's, and their average max flat trajectory at roughly 150 feet, they do fine for that, and since a SERIOUS percentage of airsoft users are CQC junkies... well hell we could use supper soakers and they be almost the same. About the only practical innovation I would like to see in airsoft guns, applicable to "general" battles, would be a way to fire even AEG's single shot "spring action" style, or make the action of cocking the weapon an actual functional necessity, which is has existed in one or two aeg's if iirc (a G3 I believe was one of the two, the other, sorta, PSG-1, at least mine had to be cocked first) and is coming out again in GBB but I believe it is very possible to make an AEG do this as well. And that's BARELY a "performance" or "feel" upgraded, rather a detailing job.

[Mirska]

PTW + Prime bodykit.

 

Now you have a gun in wich all outside metal parts are either steel or machined aluminium. Only one thing thats offers same kind of durability concerning externals i think would be FULL steel AK series gun.

 

Im not going to argue about internals of the PTW´s all im going to say that my 3 year old PTW has gone throught more than 100k rounds and has never missed a beat. Only telling my experience with these guns.

 

Cheers

[RC-1138]

I think the simple reason any company makes things to wear out ...So we have to by more . Sure ,they could produce a fully machined GB, but it wouldn't wear out .For exsample ,I have a drill my dad bought in the early 60s ,and its still going strong. Now if you got a drill now ,would you expect it to last 50-60 odd years . Its the throw away culture we now live in thats to blame

 

I wouldnt expect an M16 made in 1979 to still work either... The throwaway culture does effect this a little, but not enough to produce the results we see. And at that time, do not forget, there were plenty of items manufactured that didnt have long service lives (see: toaster). And as far as the PTW thing goes, to re-highlight: Systema PTW's are for External junkies that absolutely need to have a real gun that shoots bb's. However internally they are no up to my personal snuff, not for that price.

[RC-1138]

PTW + Prime bodykit.

 

Im not going to argue about internals of the PTW´s all im going to say that my 3 year old PTW has gone throught more than 100k rounds and has never missed a beat. Only telling my experience with these guns.

 

Cheers

 

Mine didnt fair so well. It didnt break but considering my CA was shooting at the same level of accuracy and range, for a quarter of the price (perhaps not as nice externals but then I prefer performance in my gun over looks) I saw the PTW as a huge waste of cash, hence why I turned it in...

[snorkelman]

Im sure some folks appreciate a quality watch but that presupposes they actually appreciate the workmanship and design of its internals and thus want to sort of celebrate that 'mechanical ingenuity of the watchmakers art' in a high quality version.

 

AEG mechboxes in airsoft guns on the other hand are (at least for me) something that I kinda hold my nose and live with on basis of it being a neccessary mass market evil that manufacs insist on sticking in their guns.

 

So although I'm not satisfied with whats on the market, while AEGs still go whirr-whirr-pop rather than clunk-bang-bang they arent something Im all that interested in spending wads of extra cash to see innovations in.

 

Presuming you do then Id say that upping the quality of the build materials in and of itself isnt innovative, though using those improved materials to increase functionality would.

 

Build it out of materials that allow tight enough tolerances and strength to allow shoehorning into dimensionally accurate receivers and to adopt a modularised approach (where you can directly access and strip the gear set or trigger switch or cylinder head etc without having to bugger about with any of the rest)

 

Systema and ICS have tackled aspects of that but I guess it could be taken further particularly in mainstream boxes (V3 boxes with quick change springs, access to the gear set via a removable side panel on the mechbox etc) AEGs are not really my sort of thing though so I could be missing the point of what a neat feature would be

 

Personally for high end guns I'd like to see better quality internal materials in gas guns and better quality externals. If we're buying replicas of military rifles then why bother with sanitized/airbrushed gunshow finishes - if the real deal happens to have a finish thats as rough as a badgers *albartroth* and rattles like a bag of spanners, then give us an authentic rendition of that and in as authentic materials as legality allows.

 

If you want to do something innovative by way of gas guns, the only thing I dont think has been tackled yet is a gas-assisted-springer style design- mechanical 'spring and piston fired' for shot to shot consistency over a wide range of ambient temperatures, with the gas blowback used solely to recock it, so that ambient temperature and cooldown has more effect on ROF than FPS (though thats going to be viewed as a backwards move from current WA and GHK trend of trying to approximate internals of the real-deal)

 

Other than something like that, materials are pretty much the only real viable improvement for gas guns. I dont see a lot being done in terms of improving gas efficiency when we have the mass market desire for gas in mag (that brings with it relatively low pressure gases prone to cool down, minimal scope for pressure regulation and an inherently inneficient way of using the gas). At a pinch we could see someone build a system that relies on igniting the gases rather than just blasting them into the atmosphere as a pressurised propellant, but I suspect that sort of explosive gases desing could set big red alarm bells ringing in various countries firearms legislation.

 

As far as paintball inovations go I dont beleive they can be translated directly to airsoft

 

a - cos theres a fair deal of neccesity in paintball for a lot of those features - the electronics strike me as much as being borne of the need to throttle back the ROF of what would otherwise be an incredibly short stroked pneumatic system thats being fed from a high pressure external source. Not as easy to implement on an electromechanical system and not really anywhere near as required.

 

b - because of that need they're now firmly in the mass market end of paintball and benefit from economies of scale

 

c - and finally, because markers arent usually constrained by the fixed dimensional accuracy (or near dimensional accuracy) that airsoft has set itself for externals. Need a few more mm breathing room to shoehorn Project X into your newest paintball marker? Then provided it doesnt make it ergonomically unuseable, a dimensional alteration or two to your external design to provide the extra room isnt a major headache. Try the same in airsoft and you best have a tin lid on your head when you issue the press release and product photos...

[RC-1138]

Personally for high end guns I'd like to see better quality internal materials in gas guns and better quality externals. If we're buying replicas of military rifles then why bother with sanitized/airbrushed gunshow finishes - if the real deal happens to have a finish thats as rough as a badgers *albartroth* and rattles like a bag of spanners, then give us an authentic rendition of that and in as authentic materials as legality allows.

 

I agree with this in the sense that these "perfect beauties" hardly fit the bill of a real steel. My CA M15A4 hardly looks like my issue M4... nor does it wobble as much...

[Magsz]

He makes a good point. If your so worried about "feel" of an airsoft gun then you qualify as the perfect customer of a Systema... about all their good for is making it tough to tell the difference between a replica and realsteel.

 

Not quite. You cant rack the charging handle of a PTW. Thats the first thing i do on any real firearm. Not to mention, after getting set up with a PTW you've already exceeded the cost of a real firearm by a huge margin. Yes, they're not the same thing but what im getting at here is that the cost of the ptw is exceeding the quality level that you're paying for.

 

 

Also, captain, if you're not familiar with the AR15 Comparison chart i would strongly suggest you google it. Colt is made according to the US army TDP (technical data package). The rifles are currently at the top of the food chain, PERIOD, end of story. There is no disputing this. The US army requested that the rifles be built to a certain standard and colt is currently the only tier 1 manufacturer besides FN that is doing this. What you are experiencing with your rifle in the military is simply a machine that has exceeded its lifespan. The fact that it still works is a testament to the quality of the weapon. This is further proof that our soldiers need not necessarily a new weapon systems but NEW damned weapons. I can only imagine how many thousands of rounds have been put through the current service rifles. The average lifespan of a barrel is roughly 15-20k rounds on the high end. After seeing that many rounds gas port erosion starts to set in and can cause shortstroking and extraction issues. Hell, i wonder when the last time the bolts were properly maintained, ie had new extractor springs and inserts installed. *suitcase*, for that matter, when have any of these rifles been COMPLETELY detail stripped and maintained on the armorer level. I would be curious to know.

 

harder faster better stronger

 

edit:// seriously, it's a freakin' toy. If you want to use "real" quality weapons (which, incidentally, are far from perfect), go to a shooting range or buy a real rifle.

 

If you have that much money to drop on an airsoft gun, you should probably do something else with all that cash.

 

Give it a rest. I own plenty of real firearms and train with them quite a bit but i always come back to airsoft because it gives me things that my real steel firearms training doesnt. I am not in the military, most carbine classes and pistol classes that i take are individual based. Airsoft is a team sport based around force on force engagements. Completely different but at the same time still allows the application of my individual skills. Spending alot of money on an airsoft replica has nothing to do with anything. Hobbies are time and money sinks, period, end of story. Firearms are tools, so are airsoft guns. Wanting something better, ie faster, better stronger is never a bad thing when it comes to tools. Airsofters are just as entitled to quality as real steel enthusiasts.

 

 

The PTW looks like it might have the level of quality that I'm looking for. I haven't had a chance to open one up and mess with the gearbox but it looks promising.

 

Look elsewhere. In stock format they're garbage. Even after spending thousands of dollars on externals they're still a horrible training tool and feel nothing like the real weapon beyond the feel of a pistol grip in your hand.

 

Giguand, your posts in this thread have been spot on and eye opening. Keep them coming, you're hitting the nail right on the darned head.

 

Snorkelman, i feel the same way you do in regards to the current state of the industry.

 

[lance201]

hi,

 

for my personally it is frustrating when I compare the quality of an 150 Euro Airsoftgun with an 150 Euro Airgun. Ok, the Airgun hasn't so many working parts, but all are made from steel and with good maintenance the gun lasts forever.

The use of cheap Potmetal, the overall quality of the threads and the screws is so bad at the asg and so good at the ag.

 

BTW. I can't understand the argument, that it will be easier to customize the asgs to fire real ammunition if they have a better quality. I think the financial effort would be 3times higher then to buy the real weapon on the black market... I don't believe that it will be possible anyway.

 

Lance