Chimpy Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 meppie - A quick google turned up this site which may have some of the information you are looking for to work out the probability of one of those students being a CCW holder: http://concealedcampus.org/ Link to post Share on other sites
meppie Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 If you go down that route of thinking then the idea that an entire room is gonna start pulling out thier concealed firearms and blasting each other away isn't gonna happen then, is it? You are pretty much saying hardly anyone will have CCW permits. True - but when I made that post I was not aware there is an age restriction for a CCW and the extra training you need to get a permt in the first place. I should have done some homework before I posted this fictional doom scenario. Then again, I might have been influenced with my experience with some Texan gun addicts. And some experience with American students in a bar .... how these people can get drunk of that low-percentage "beer" is still an enigma for me. But that is a different story. Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The problem with self defence training is that it generally is in a room which you get comfortabel with and feel secure. My girlfriend studied karate for years (6 years infact upto twice a week) got up to black belt, attack her her now and she's useless. Same with a number of people I have known, its just not in some people to defend themselves when they get scared. Link to post Share on other sites
Chimpy Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The problem with self defence training is that it generally is in a room which you get comfortabel with and feel secure. My girlfriend studied karate for years (6 years infact upto twice a week) got up to black belt, attack her her now and she's useless. Same with a number of people I have known, its just not in some people to defend themselves when they get scared. There is a difference between learning a martial art and learning self defense. A lot of self defense training is mindset related so that you can still react even when scared. Link to post Share on other sites
Guges Mk3 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Several of you are missing my point. I am saying based on pure volume that of course people are less likely to get shot then run over...just because there are more cars in use. Period. Guns that are carried in a holster are not "in use". So tossing out the stat that people getting run over is more dangerous then getting shot by a gun is not applicable for allowing people to carry guns on campus because its "safe". I am also emphasizing that many CCW programs are woefully inadequete in even basic safety training. That is why the cop was shot! The comment about alcohol was just an example that the situation was exascerbated by alcohol, which relates to College Students. Also a majority of PD's in the US have policy against off-duty carry if the Officer is going to a bar to get a drink. And for College Students having guns as part of campus CCW...why would you want to do that when most of them can't even Rent a Car till age 25...shows car rental companies and insurance agencies really believe in their responsible nature of people in this age group, no? Pesonally, I knwo not all are irresponsible, I wasn't...but many are not. And the mentioning of Soldiers having "guns" at 18 does not apply to a college society. The military makes you smart about guns very quickly and they have immediate and sever punishment for even the slightest infraction...see what happens when you muzzel a training Sergeant even with a empty gun. IMHO we don't need it its and accident that is waiting to happen and the lawyers are wainting in the wings to sue someone for negligence. And you can believe that as fact. Link to post Share on other sites
Chimpy Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Guges Mk3 - You miss the point that college students are already able to have a CCW permit but are not able to carry on campus. This isn't an argument about the wisdom of allowing CCW or not for college students as they are fully able to get a CCW permit. Nor is it an argument for lowering the age at which people can gain a CCW permit. It is an argument about the restriction to doing so on campus by people that already have a CCW permit. Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Still even with training in self defence, if its not in you to react to a threat it is pointless and can land you in more trouble. The point I was trying to make is it is not a certanty that you can react the same as you do in training as in real life. When on your own its very different to being in a group of two or more people, believe me I've been there. Still the point of this discussion is do they have the right. I'd say yes so long as its legal in the state they are in. If your against it completely then say so, say you dont like it at all not just on your campus. To say you don't like it in a particular area to me comes across a bit snobish as in "No I dont want that happening around me, let it happen some place else". Stick to your convictions or no-one will respect you. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 And I wonder how many of those "immature, stupid, and crazy" college students have the stones and coordination to actually pass a ccw exam and live fire test for licsencing, one error on the range, and the instructor has all the reasons to take them out... as has been said before...ccw is self-selecting. But only in the states where testing must be done to get a permit. In states with relaxed regs, immature, stupid, and crazy folk can get a permit. But this is already the case as there is nothing stopping college students that are old enough from making use of their CCW permit off campus. Since it doesn't and hasn't kind of points to this not being a very likely occurrence at all. Frat houses are practically on-campus Link to post Share on other sites
Pilko Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 CCW permit holders aren't gods, there will be accidents. Maybe only a few but there will be some. Tbh will it really matter if this goes ahead? I seriously doubt this will make any difference at all. Link to post Share on other sites
RedRaptor Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 FWIW, I go to UT Austin, and SCCC (which I'm a part of) pushed pretty hard to overturn the gun ban on campus on Tuesday. Of course, Student Government, being full of holier-than-thou idiots, voted it down overwhelmingly, even in the face of mountains of evidence that it would be beneficial to extend concealed carry rights to inside of campus buildings. They'd already made up their mind, and the VT graduate *beep* who played the pity card only pushed them further into their trenches. But we're not done yet. Oh no, not by a long shot. Link to post Share on other sites
Kraut Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 But only in the states where testing must be done to get a permit. In states with relaxed regs, immature, stupid, and crazy folk can get a permit. Ok, so then the death rate from CCW holders in these states must be really high, right? Right? Frat houses are practically on-campus Practically doesn't equal actuality. Most Frat houses are off campus and out of the college's legal jurisdiction. And what difference does it make? You're just doing the same appeal to unfounded emotional knee-jerking, rather than using data and logic. I'm starting to think you're just trolling. Link to post Share on other sites
Kraut Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 College students are among the highst rates of "dangerous" drinking habits. How is a massive firefight even similar too drunk driving? This is one of those things that makes me scratch my head and go, "Really?" Drinking and driving is Stupid. Drinking and carrying a gun is Stupid. It doesn't matter if the person even starts a entanglement. Alcohol makes your motor skills worse, this is a fact. If you cant hit your target, you shouldn't take the shot. Alcohol impairs your judgment. I for one, don't want a drunk guy too have a gun in his hands, anywhere NEAR me, even if hes trying too defend against some assailant. This is how you get incidents where he misses and hits some poor gal just sitting there, or whatever. College students are not an Ideal group for CCW. I am a college student, Im in the process of getting a CCW, and I wouldn't DREAM of carrying on campus, because I wouldn't trust the other people there to do so. I don't care how much training you have, the last thing I want is for someone who is emotionally unstable with a gun on campus. And anyone who has been in college (or a teenager for that matter) knows how emotionally volatile they can be. Faculty on the other hand. If a faculty member was properly trained, and there was a refresher course 1 time a semester, I would be ok with teachers being ALLOWED to have/carry a gun if they wished. Most teachers would not do this, but that is there prerogative. EDIT: I pre-apologize for my bad grammar and spelling, Ive had a bad week, its late, I'm emotionally volatile, and grammar is not a strong suite of mine. Ok, so we agree massive drinking and CCW don't mix. My question to you is, what is so different from someone drinking off campus and someone drinking on campus? When you cross that border, do you suddenly become safer from any crime? Are the police more competent and prevalent? If you CCW off campus, what is the difference on campus? Do you suddenly become more irresponsible on campus? Emotionally disturbed people have already brought concealed weapons on campus'. I'm pretty sure Seung-Hui Cho was emotionally volatile, but those 'gun-free zone' signs didn't do much to stop him, huh? But apparently a law-abiding citizen who has gone through all the necessary steps to receive a permit to legally carry a concealed weapon and otherwise responsibly carries anywhere off-campus, suddenly turn's into an emotional wreck once they're on campus? Honestly, this line of thinking makes me shake my head and think "Really?" Arming teachers is great, but they're paid to teach me, not protect me. I think I can do a better job of protecting myself than anyone else available. Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The point of this is that people already have CCW permits, we are not discussing a surge in active CCW permits exclusive to college students. We are discussing people who have the permits already and want their rights to extend onto their educational facilities, where there has been significant instances of violence in the past that would have been mitigated by a CCW holder being present, and there are instances where armed civilians have indeed stopped such events from culminating. Any doomsday scenario related to irresponsibility you can think of will happen regardless of whether they are on campus or not. There is no magic immaturity field that surrounds college campuses, people who are immature are immature irrespective of where they are. Why does the BOR stop at that boundary is the question being asked. Somewhere in recent history people have been convinced that people invent a purpose when they have a tool in hand, but that is the logical fallacy. Purpose dictates the tool, not the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites
TheMightAdam Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 You also have to remember that they would only pull out their firearm in the event of an actual emergency. Would anything else be brandishing a firearm in public? Some people just need to step outside the realm of more guns equal more death. Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Well when they say they are working on CCW. They are actually trying to lift the ban on the gun free zone, which implies CCW. Open carry is perfectly legal without any type of permit whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites
Wayneard3413 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Lets put it this way... I spent most of last weekend and the beginning of this week at a counterdrug course One the very first day the instructor asked if any of the students (all LEO's) had a weapon either on their person or in their vehicle... Imagine my surprise when not a single one raised their hand Do you honesty think that because the post had a no weapon policy that no one was armed? Im not advocating anyone break the law but in the end i would prefer to be alive to face any legal conflicts after the fact... In the end thats a decision everyone has to make for themselves Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 You guys have it all wrong. As I'm sure you're aware, you have a constitutional right to arm yourself. You DO NOT have a constitutional right to formal education though. Consider that. I'm also wondering how you get on with your need/right/duty to protect yourself when you travel abroad? Or do you guys just stay home a lot? Link to post Share on other sites
Wayneard3413 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm also wondering how you get on with your need/right/duty to protect yourself when you travel abroad? Every time i have been OCONUS it has been with the military so i cant really speak on that one Link to post Share on other sites
NeoVeNoM Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The right to protect yourself... From who? The enemy? And who might they be? Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 "OCONUS"? There's something slightly disturbing about the idea that a huge number of people from a huge 1st-word country only ever travel abroad in order to kill johnny-foreigner. Link to post Share on other sites
sekiryu Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm also wondering how you get on with your need/right/duty to protect yourself when you travel abroad? I've got two fists and two feet. That's my answer Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I've got two fists and two feet. That's my answer And you didn't die? But how can this be???? Link to post Share on other sites
Wayneard3413 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 There's something slightly disturbing about the idea that a huge number of people from a huge 1st-word country only ever travel abroad in order to kill johnny-foreigner. Sorry i dont have huge amounts of money to spend on international site seeing... And excuse me if i dont feel bad about traveling to kill "poor little Johnny" Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Sorry i dont have huge amounts of money to spend on international site seeing... And excuse me if i dont feel bad about traveling to kill "poor little Johnny" You can always dazzle people with your spelling instead. *EDIT* Actually, to treat that reply with far more gravity than it deserves, I gotta say, I've never met a poor squaddie in ANY western army before. Remind me, again, what the basic pay for a private soldier is in the US Army? Then there's the medical, dental, housing and family benefits too. Link to post Share on other sites
Wayneard3413 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ok man... side step the issue all you want Point is your comfortable not being armed, fine so be it.... But im also willing to bet that you have never been in a situation in which you honestly had to defend yourself or those around you Link to post Share on other sites
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