Concealed carry on university campuses

[ruchik]

So the other day here at UC Davis in Kommiefornia, I was inside the main eating hall, munching on a sandwich with meat that was impenetrable, and unfolded our campus, student-run newspaper. And right there, on the first page, was a section detailing a new initiative undertaken by a national group of college students to allow concealed carry of firearms on campus. Apparently, this is already legal in several universities in the United States. Their argument is that it would prevent anything like a another V.Tech happening again, and they point to the very low to nonexistent crime rates in the universities that do allow concealed carry, along with nonexistent accidental discharges (yes, believe it or not, NONE). Personally, I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of this ever passing anywhere in California, and most likely not anywhere else. I admire the group's drive for the right for every citizen (that would the students) to have a gun, but after I read that article and looked around, I realized that I would never come to campus or go to class again if CC was allowed out of fear of idiots with guns and accidental discharges. I don't care if its never happened on college campuses before. It just might. That's why they're accidental....anyhow, what's everyone's take on this issue? Should concealed carry be allowed on college campuses?

[Agent47]

So the other day here at UC Davis in Kommiefornia, I was inside the main eating hall, munching on a sandwich with meat that was impenetrable, and unfolded our campus, student-run newspaper. And right there, on the first page, was a section detailing a new initiative undertaken by a national group of college students to allow concealed carry of firearms on campus. Apparently, this is already legal in several universities in the United States. Their argument is that it would prevent anything like a another V.Tech happening again, and they point to the very low to nonexistent crime rates in the universities that do allow concealed carry, along with nonexistent accidental discharges (yes, believe it or not, NONE). Personally, I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of this ever passing anywhere in California, and most likely not anywhere else. I admire the group's drive for the right for every citizen (that would the students) to have a gunto preserve the right of every competent citizen and student to possess a gun on their person if they choose to do so, but after I read that article and looked around, I realized that I would never come to campus or go to class again if CC was allowed out of fear of idiots with guns and accidental discharges. I don't care if its never happened on college campuses before. It just might. That's why they're accidental....anyhow, what's everyone's take on this issue? Should concealed carry be allowed on college campuses?

 

Fixed...

 

That's a pretty common argument against it, but put it this way:

 

You're already letting those responsible enough with ccw carry around you in other places, what's wrong with college campuses? Go ask the University of Utah and see what they think...is there a magic line on college campuses that suddenly makes ordinary ccw holders incompetent and only cops competent or something?

 

Go toDavid Codrea's website and tell me what you think about "The Only Ones."

[DarkLite]

1) You are many times more likely to die of being hit by a car than an accidental discharge.

2) Cars are allowed on campus and driving licenses are not as heavily regulated as firearm licenses.

3) There are lots of idiots driving cars.

4) Stop worrying about everything and get on with your life.

[Agent47]

or I could have just said what Darklite said...

[Habakure]

If someone accidentially shoots themselves, its still there fault right. I hate this blame culture where "its not my fault I shot myself on campus its the college's for letting me carry a gun!". What a load of ###### and not the dogs ###### as that is a good thing.

[ruchik]

Lol touche. I don't have a problem with CCW. It's just that for some reason, the idea of students toting around concealed firearms on campus doesn't seem smart.

 

"You're already letting those responsible enough with ccw carry around you in other places, what's wrong with college campuses? Go ask the University of Utah and see what they think...is there a magic line on college campuses that suddenly makes ordinary ccw holders incompetent and only cops competent or something?"

 

Fair play though.

[thewallhitme]

hand out body armour. problem solved.

 

the world would be a much different place if i was in charge.

[Wayneard3413]

Lol touche. I don't have a problem with CCW. It's just that for some reason, the idea of students toting around concealed firearms on campus doesn't seem smart.

 

Do you happen to go to the bars or clubs around your school? Doesnt seem smart to be on the roads around thousands of DUI drivers

 

I would be more worried about the wacko with the gun than the guy who applied for a background check and attended gun safety training to carry it... And its not exactly like they are going to be in the middle of class finger banging their pistols

[Chimpy]

It's just that for some reason, the idea of students toting around concealed firearms on campus doesn't seem smart.

 

It'd help debate if you could explain what that reason was.

 

If we look at the USA as a whole CCW holders are a self selected bunch and demographically (IIRC) are actually more law abiding and less violent than the general population.

 

Why are they self selecting? It takes time, money and effort to get a CCW permit and even if it didn't you still have to actively want to carry a gun in addition to everything else that comes with you day to day. I also understand that a lot of the people campaigning for CCW on campus already have permits to do so off campus.

 

The idea that as soon as CCW is allowed on campus everyone would be tooled up and pulling guns on one another is as fanciful and fallacious as it was when people suggested it about CCW more generally.

[Danke]

OK here's a few questions for number crunches.

 

What's the average age of the students down there?

 

What's the average age of CCW permit holders?

 

 

[Guges Mk3]

And the "real" statistical factor that there are more deaths by pedestrian and automobiles versus "accidental" discharges is because there are more cars in "use" then guns being fingered or out of their holsters.

 

Take my city...800,000 cars in use every day...versus 2000 pistols being carried. Of course there are going to be more fatalities for cars and peds.

 

I personally do not think that more guns is the solution. A nut will still shoot people and if they know you are carrying...they will shoot you first!

 

And yes, IMHO...cops are far more competent then the average CCW holders, because in some jurisdictions the CCW criteria is pretty pitiful. As a matter of fact, 26 days ago...an Officer I knew was shot in the arm by his own duty weapon. The individual that shot him was a CCW holder and wanted to "see" his duty piece. But, he failed in two of the four rules of gun safety in that incident immediately when he grabbed that pistol...it did not help per se that they were also both "drunk".

 

Hint, hint...college students likes to "enjoying a refreshing brew of grains more often then not..."

 

 

[askeytheman]

Lets think about this for a minute, we're talking about college students, who (okay, they might be muppets when partaaying) but have a brain - they are there to study. Concealed carrying in my eyes on college grounds with intelligent people can surely have little issue?

[Chimpy]

And the "real" statistical factor that there are more deaths by pedestrian and automobiles versus "accidental" discharges is because there are more cars in "use" then guns being fingered or out of their holsters.

 

Take my city...800,000 cars in use every day...versus 2000 pistols being carried. Of course there are going to be more fatalities for cars and peds.

 

I personally do not think that more guns is the solution. A nut will still shoot people and if they know you are carrying...they will shoot you first!

 

And yes, IMHO...cops are far more competent then the average CCW holders, because in some jurisdictions the CCW criteria is pretty pitiful. As a matter of fact, 26 days ago...an Officer I knew was shot in the arm by his own duty weapon. The individual that shot him was a CCW holder and wanted to "see" his duty piece. But, he failed in two of the four rules of gun safety in that incident immediately when he grabbed that pistol...it did not help per se that they were also both "drunk".

 

Hint, hint...college students likes to "enjoying a refreshing brew of grains more often then not..."

 

Statistics can be used to show a lot of things and basing life decisions on risk seems an eminently sensible way to do it. Yes CCW carry is safer than people driving in part because there are less people doing it. The point people are making is that its much more sensible to mitigate the risk of getting run over than to worry about accidentally getting shot. It's not saying that you should never worry about getting shot but stressing the priorities involved in the situation as the relative danger is orders of magnitude different.

 

Drunk people and guns don't mix. The cop and the guy in your story are both idiots. Are they representative of all cops and all CCW holders though? No.

 

Your suggestion that a deranged shooter would go for the guy carrying a gun first is sensible. Any rational person would agree. Although part of the reason the permit allows for concealed carry is so that advantage doesn't exist for an attacker. As the weapon should be concealed the attacker should not know who has a weapon.

[ruchik]

I do believe in the right for everyone to own and carry firearms. However, my main point is that I believe they are simply not needed on a college campus. The average age around here at UC Davis, at least, is approximately 20-22. I'm not saying that 20-22 year olds cannot be mature adults, but there sure do seem to be a lot less of them compared to numbnuts walking around campus. That, and Davis is a college city. There is a LOT of alcohol floating around any given day. Someone, somewhere, is throwing a party basically any given night. It just seems like a recipe for disaster. The PD does a pretty good job patrolling around, so it seems unnecessary to me.

[Jagdraben]

"Simply not needed"?

 

Bullsh__.

 

Perhaps you can make the argument that college students don't need to be able to exercise any of their other Constitutional rights, too.

[Habakure]

Seeing as a lot of active soldiers are 18 they seem to be trusted to be trained to carry and handle weapons. If it isn't against the law and people want to do it then why not. Idiots will be idiots and are generally not very patient people (In my opinion and experience) so if this CCW is something that takes time it should weed out the non serious people.

 

But also if you don't want it to happen try and get a bunch of people together and have a rally about how you don't want it and get a petition going. Other wise its put up and shut up, if it comes to be.

 

Edit:- Oh and just to clarify I would never carry a concealed weapon (Well except if I was a policeman or soldier etc). But thats my choice, if you want to kill someone there are easier ways of doing it. What I mean by that is the people that say "ooohhh nnoooeeessss he has a gun and must want to kill me"

[Mike_West]

If you go with shall-issue model requiring background checks like criminal records and psychology, nothing wrong should happen. Unless, of course, some clueless *fruitcage* in a pawn shop sells a gun to a guy who shouldn't have it in the first place, but then, there's always someone to stop him.

[Chimpy]

I do believe in the right for everyone to own and carry firearms. However, my main point is that I believe they are simply not needed on a college campus. The average age around here at UC Davis, at least, is approximately 20-22. I'm not saying that 20-22 year olds cannot be mature adults, but there sure do seem to be a lot less of them compared to numbnuts walking around campus. That, and Davis is a college city. There is a LOT of alcohol floating around any given day. Someone, somewhere, is throwing a party basically any given night. It just seems like a recipe for disaster. The PD does a pretty good job patrolling around, so it seems unnecessary to me.

 

This goes back to my point about self-selection. Are the immature, partying, air-headed students you seem to characterise in your post going to bother getting a CCW permit? Do the students petitioning for it fit the stereotype you are representing to us and would be irresponsible enough to get drunk whilst armed? What in the current situation stops alcohol and firearms being abused together (especially at off campus parties)?

[Azulsky]

They have been pushing for it(well, just gun legality on campus, besides cars) here at LSU for a long now. i remember seeing flyers and articles in the school paper beginning of last year. Not only for students sake but for teachers as well.

 

Chimpy is spot on for this. The amount of effort and money required to go through with a CCW is a selective process that isnt going to appeal to your college frat chum.

Honestly if it was allowed i wouldnt expect but 5% of eligible people to get a CCW.

 

As far as the statistical data goes, there are proportionally more people killed or injured by cars than by guns, so that does away with the absolute numbers clouding up things, hell as a surgery patient you are more likely to die by operation room error than you are from any sort of gun related issue.

 

 

There is alot of bs surrounding gun owners and what constitutes their frame of mind. This of course is perpetrated by those with gun phobias who fail to look at the whole picture. And of course im going to blame the media because they portray it in such a sensationalist light to people who otherwise would have no particular opinion.

 

For the VT shootings they were appaled at how the guy was able to procure guns so easily and execute his "plan" and suddenly fear is spun up that every tom, ###### and harry with a grudge will go do it too. The truth is that most people who are gun owners are introduced to guns at an early age, in a very safe manner, and treat guns with the respect they deserve, and are brought up through the ranks so to speak. Even people who are introduced to them at a later age buy them with the intent to develop this mindset, attend safety courses and are completely safe members of the community. There are of course people who are too ignorant to understand the responsibility that comes with the potential of a firearm, but still I find that the established phobia's presented by society(media) will prevent them from purchasing a firearm.

 

People who feel they need to use a firearm and make an effort to procure one will on the whole undertake training and practice in order to use it properly, because they understand the responsibility that comes with the package, not only in the sense of misuse, but in the sense they they now represent a minority of people who have to maintain excellent to prevent being skewered on a stake by all manner of critics.

 

I also find it interesting that the same crowd that is preached to about the evil of guns by the media is only capable of seeing them as a deathstick, rather than a tool of defense or deterrance. You are preached to how nonviolence is the answer to everything, yet even in obvious instances (VT,Columbine,Amish School Murders) you are unable to see that some people clearly are "evil" and do not exist in a mindset letting them be dissuaded. Hell, if it were that easy we wouldnt need to carry them, there would be no war, they would be for shooting paper. Subsequently, it is necessary in a society to have deterrents to these sort of people. A person who commits a crime of opportunity can be deterred by the direct presence of a firearm without it being used in its terminal manner. A man threatening a woman with a knife will not seek to continue at the threat of losing his own life. Conversely, people who commit the most heinous crimes are typically mentally unstable(research the VT shooter, read his English term papers, testimony by acquaintances and professors, prior institutionalization) and do not respond to any kind of negotiation, like i said if they did they would be in the situation to begin with.

 

Until the falsehoods are cleared up and the mystique and fear surrounding gun ownership is dispelled, then we will of course always be in the circle of progun/antigun.

[mcnuggets]

I think CCW holders are as law abiding as they are because the requirements to obtain a CCW (in most states at least) are sufficiently strict and costly that it weeds out irresponsible people. CCW holders are a self selected group.

 

Public universities should allow concealed weapons if the state allows them (except perhaps Vermont which has no CCW requirements). Private universities should be allowed to do what they want (as long as they follow state law). I also think dormitories should remain gun-free (which seems to be the policy on almost all campuses in the states).

[Kraut]

And the "real" statistical factor that there are more deaths by pedestrian and automobiles versus "accidental" discharges is because there are more cars in "use" then guns being fingered or out of their holsters.

 

Take my city...800,000 cars in use every day...versus 2000 pistols being carried. Of course there are going to be more fatalities for cars and peds.

If you go by percentages, which is a more accurate representation rather than just straight numbers, OVERALL firearms-related deaths is FAR below automobile-related deaths.

 

I personally do not think that more guns is the solution. A nut will still shoot people and if they know you are carrying...they will shoot you first!

 

And yes, IMHO...cops are far more competent then the average CCW holders, because in some jurisdictions the CCW criteria is pretty pitiful. As a matter of fact, 26 days ago...an Officer I knew was shot in the arm by his own duty weapon. The individual that shot him was a CCW holder and wanted to "see" his duty piece. But, he failed in two of the four rules of gun safety in that incident immediately when he grabbed that pistol...it did not help per se that they were also both "drunk".

 

Hint, hint...college students likes to "enjoying a refreshing brew of grains more often then not..."

You just destroyed your own argument...

 

Not to mention I know too many cops who couldn't even name their sidearm...

 

I do believe in the right for everyone to own and carry firearms. However, my main point is that I believe they are simply not needed on a college campus. The average age around here at UC Davis, at least, is approximately 20-22. I'm not saying that 20-22 year olds cannot be mature adults, but there sure do seem to be a lot less of them compared to numbnuts walking around campus. That, and Davis is a college city. There is a LOT of alcohol floating around any given day. Someone, somewhere, is throwing a party basically any given night. It just seems like a recipe for disaster. The PD does a pretty good job patrolling around, so it seems unnecessary to me.

Yeah, like at VT... oh wait...

 

Seriously, as it's been said before, CCW holders are FAR more likely to be level-headed and considerate of their actions, even if drinking. Most of my friends won't carry if they plan on drinking. That said, why just a college campus? I do most of my drinking at mine and my friend's apartments. Most of us own one if not more firearms. We're college-age. Are we more responsible than someone on campus? If I move on campus, do I become less responsible all of a sudden? Only a real idiot would bring a concealed firearm, or any firearm at all, to a party if they plan on getting wasted anyway. I have HIGH doubt that anyone that has bought a gun, taken training courses, taken CCW course, has a license, etc will do that. Really, please think about what you're saying and don't run off of emotion.

[sekiryu]

I'm on the fence with this issue. I agree that it would prevent massacres and other armed robberies, however I see an age and maturity problem:

 

CCW, or owning a handgun in general, requires you to be 21. Just by guessing, half of the college demographic is between 17 and 20. Not legal for handgun ownership, or a CCW. 21 is also the legal age for drinking. "Dry" campuses don't really do a good job keeping alcohol away from the students on campus (at least here). And we all know how drunk college students can get.

 

In order for this to work, the requirements for college CCW should be different, more involved, and nationally standardized unlike the standard CCW.

[Pilko]

I'm on the fence with this issue. I agree that it would prevent massacres and other armed robberies, however I see an age and maturity problem:

 

Same, I just wonder really how likely a massacre is gonna happen. Even then you have to be quite unlucky to be a fatality.

[meppie]

Possible and very fictional scenario (and lets hope it does not happen for real):

Frat party - somebody is angry - pulls his gun and start shooting - everybody else pulls his/her gun and starts shooting - police statistics has confirmed that the starter has killed two persons - the other 38 dead people are due to the "firefight".

 

If I see how easy it was for me as a Dutch guy to get a drivers-licence and purchase a gun it was a laugh. However, to get a drink in a bar or getting something alcoholic in the Safeway was a royal pain in the a$$. Americans are in love with their guns and cars and that is fine by me. If they want to have a mayor spray and pray shootout at an university or on campus be my guest. But thinking or even knowing that you are safe just because you are carrying a gun is giving yourself false hope. Just wondering what amount casualties might occur if a lot of people in panic and confusion with little training will do with their guns? Will there be more or less casualties because there will be some random shooting: "but I saw him carrying a gun so I thought he is the guy who started this".

 

You might feel safe but I only feel safe when people around me know what you are doing.

 

Or answer this question: do you feel safe with in the middle of a group of airsoft-noobs going for: spray and pray or do you feel safe between experienced airsofters who knows: spot, identify and shoot?

[Stealthbomber]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

 

How do you determine who's the loony shooting up the college and who's the responsible firearm owner when all hell breaks loose?

Do you, as a responsible firearm owner, shoot the guy across the yard who's waving a Glock around or is he doing the same as you?

 

A far better compromise, IMO, would be to introduce teams of people (made from the faculty and student body) who ARE authorised to carry firearms and also trained to work together and do stuff like guide people to safety and brief the police when they arrive etc.

 

*EDIT*

Beyond that, personally, I'd feel less comfortable at a school where I KNOW any idiot could be legally carrying a gun rather than at a school where I'm unarmed and open to the 1 in a million threat of a school shooting.