HIGH POWER!

[Optomis]

High power does not make a bad player play any bit better. A skilled player with a high powered rifle will perform better. A weapon is a tool, just like everything else, you have to know how to use it properly to be able to harness it's full potential. A person who regularly uses a lower powered rifle, like a stock TM will find that he is usually a better player if he can play as if he still has a TM but he has the added advantage of being more accurate, the shots will get to the target faster and most importantly the shots will be able to penetrate bushes and foliage better.

[The Bushman]

I spent the entire night spewing and missed work, so wrote this, while I tried to rehydrate and recover.

 

Very insightful posts by BITCHTITS and SLIM_SHADY.

 

Here is my perspective:

 

In the beginning (1991) .... my team had spring rifles (non hop L&S kits) and learnt that we needed to use accurate shooting, to beat the more numerous adversaries (some of whom had original FAMAS AEG). However, what got us results, was our combined abilities in STEALTH. Using teamwork and dedication, our trademark was to get the first shots off; even when we were suppossed to be walking into an ambush.

 

AEG were not seen as God guns, as they had 1 low cap (50-68 shots) that had to be filled using a loading rod velcroed to the side of your gun. Thus limiting their firepower dramaticaly. Around 1993 high caps hit the scene. In my opinion, they are the worst thing ever invented in Airsoft and ultimatley, deskilled the game. If someone is in range, it is inevitable that you will hit them, if you unleash enough pellets (if they stay still). It's just a matter of time. I guess it is a game of; probability of a hit, multiplied by number of shots (ie. a tough target with only a 1% chance of a hit, will still be hit on average 3 times if you empty 300 shots at it.)

 

Later, with the introduction of HOP UP, our club, used to allow stock TM AEG (300fps limit for automatics) and despite it being a full level playing field; players wanted to upgrade. The urge to have the best equipment, I guess is in many sports. We capped the powers to low levels, as we never had a problem with range, serious injuries or malfunctions. The idea was that someone, could come and play seriously, by buying an AEG, battery and high cap, only. There was no arms race.

 

However, after years of players only having 1 or (rarely) 2 high caps; things esculated with some new comers investing in the later AEG's (1995) that came out (G3 and AK47) that have far bigger magazine capacity and buying far more of them. With the introdcution of drum mags things got even worse and the arms race had shown its face, in a different way to just velocity/power.

 

I have added pictures to break up this big lump of text. Photo's circa 1997.

 

The increase in magazine size, was a tough one. If I am honest, some teams set themselves up to be sustained fire players, with which they could try to make up for lack of experience/skill/movement and endurance. One guy had enough mags for 12,000 BB's. We felt we could not cap the numbers of pellets allowed, as this would be seen as the more experienced players (who ran the club), getting back their advantage and penalising others.

 

Around the year 2000, APS2 began to hit the scene and we allowed 500fps (with 20m MED). However, I soon found I prefered my bolt action under the 350fps limit, so it had no MED (which suited the terrain. As other players bought APS rifles, they would generally not listen to me and feel they had to upgrade to 500fps immediatly. Thinking more power=better gun. After either one or 2 trips out, they would generaly downgrade.

 

Players want more/faster/bigger and will always want to push the boundaries, in my experience. Yet this doesn't lead to better games. As you point out, numbers are not necessary, to have a brilliant event either (in fact being a faceless player, in a sea of them, makes it easier to cheat IMO). Fewer players, make gaming more personal and allow more interaction, in my experience.

 

Our modern Hunteering events, have rules that try to promote what we love most from gaming. You are limited to 22 shots for a high power bolt (550fps) action for 2 days. Lower power guns are allowed slightly more shots (300fps VSR has 60 shots). Things are suppossed to be hard and put you under pressure, making this a VERY different experience from shorter/typical skirmish games. This type of event is not for everyone and only a niche would really enjoy it (you can easily end the event without firing a shot.) Which is demoralising if you have been hit several times. But that is the price of playing such a tough game against people determined to win, using the minimum of kit, often in tough conditions. Going to whatever length it takes.

 

 

From what you guys have posted, the semi auto DMR, is probably the optimum choice on most sites IMO. Having a higher fps limit, than AEG, but still retaining semi auto: gives the best of both worlds, when it comes to effectiveness.

 

The way to make your games/events better (from gripes you have posted) is to introduce ammo limits that handicap the "better" guns. However, many "mil sim" rules I have read, still allow way too many shots. Simulating the military should surely mean you use realistic ammo loads? ie 300 shots (in 10 mags) for AEG. After all, real guns soon get carbon build up, that causes jams/lack of semi cocking etc. as many old soldiers will testify (from spending hours cleaning them).

 

People, will perhaps say that Airsoft guns, are not accurate enough to use real ammo loads. However, until ALL PLAYERS at an event use real caps, someone has an advantage (due to less mag changes and sustained firing ability.) Controlling your fire, is one of the main skills, that the military rifleman needs to master, but somehow in the "simulation" this still appears overlooked by some organisers. I think they, worry that if they set too low an ammo limit, that players may actually run out .

 

I am not trying to pick apart other games/sites here, just simply pointing out flaws, in making a great game. As usual sorry to sound elitist; it is just hindsight that has molded my opinions.

 

I must say however, to get back on topic; that High Powered guns do offer an advantage, even to players of little experience/skill. They extend flat ranges and reduce opponents chance to dodge. Also better penetration of cover, can get you hits, that lower powered guns, would have failed to get through. Don't get me wrong; you still need to see your opponent, before he shoots you; to utilise this advantage, thats where many newcomers fall down, I guess.

 

 

Your playing field also dictates what gun power is advantagious (MED can really work against you). Dense or close quarters/urbanised sites may favour low powered automatics, while wide open desert areas obviously optimise the longest ranged bolt guns.

 

Skill or Firepower can be the deciding factors, in an encounter. (also luck, but that is another story).

 

The way to learn the skills and then hone them, is to play with a springer vs electrics/superior guns. Nice work bitchtits, for still challenging yourself. That way, you have to make skill the decisive factor and can not depend on firepower to bail you out or make a shot "easy." You often only have 1 shot/chance before full automatic descends, so it has to count. You learn when to shoot and when to hold fire, you also soon learn to hide at all costs. Stalking close enough to get a hit in with your inferior gun, develops higher skill IMO. Clever play brings rewards and then you should apply that to using a DMR or bolt action; in order to optimise your effectiveness.

 

I will say that I speak from a Sporting angle here (what makes a good/fair game) and am not confused by simulation of something else. This approach is what makes sensible rules and no one is told they have been hit by an invisible "sniper."

 

Again, sorry for the rant, but discussion is always good. I feel abit better now too.

 

Good Hunting

[Slim_Shady]

Cracking post - and I have to say I agree with all the salient points. I'll reply in a longer form tomorrow but suffice to say I have very little to add to the above.

[Hammerfall]

Yep, brilliant post Bushman - as per usual I agree with the points initially brought up by Bitchtits and Slim and expatiated upon by yourself. I will raise my hand and admit that in a skirmish situation i do need to perform more in line with the above ideas. I'm happy that i have to work on this though.

[Slim_Shady]

I have time to reply now

 

Around 1993 high caps hit the scene. In my opinion, they are the worst thing ever invented in Airsoft and ultimatley, deskilled the game

 

Absolutely. I've expressed this sentiment before and It ruffled some feathers but I firmly believe that hi-caps really don't add anything to the game. Do some players that use hi-caps also use tactics and have the ability to shoot accurately? Yes, of course and equally some people using lo-caps do not but on the whole the ability to carry thousands of rounds in an immediate/ready for use format isn't the sort of play I respect, or enjoy participating in.

 

The knock-on effect is that people facing upgraded AEG's with hi-caps and drum magazines need intensely good fieldcraft (nothing wrong with developing that) or high-powered sniper rifles to maintain the range advantage......hence the arms race and power inflation.

 

From what you guys have posted, the semi auto DMR, is probably the optimum choice on most sites IMO. Having a higher fps limit, than AEG, but still retaining semi auto: gives the best of both worlds, when it comes to effectiveness.

 

I'd go one further and say that in some situations the DMR is absolutely overpowered (yes, I know I own one....objectivity is a great thing ^^). Having the ability to hit targets at 70m in much the same way as a bolt action albeint slightly less accurate is devastating as I can also put out a lot of BB's quite quickly if needed.

 

I've held choke points in Urban Games simply by virtue of the fact that (at the time I used a CA33 and only standard mags were available) I not only had a very accurate weapon, I could take out multiple targets quickly without pause, and without danger to myself. In rural games some of the advantages are removed (DMR's are easier to locate through the noise they generate in quiet situations) but in return you gain the ability to minimise the loss of accuracy through foliage-penetrating heavier ammo through quick follow-up shots, as well as being able to fire and reload without moving in the slightest (aside from mag changes).

 

I can see why some sites don't allow their use, or force them to operate under different FPS limits - "Full bore" DMR's are almost too good.

 

The way to make your games/events better (from gripes you have posted) is to introduce ammo limits that handicap the "better" guns. However, many "mil sim" rules I have read, still allow way too many shots. Simulating the military should surely mean you use realistic ammo loads? ie 300 shots (in 10 mags) for AEG. After all, real guns soon get carbon build up, that causes jams/lack of semi cocking etc. as many old soldiers will testify (from spending hours cleaning them).

 

I can't speak for all mil-sim events but I know that in the ones I organised we settled on a compromise simply because of the less-than-ideal ballistics inherent to BB's. I can't remember exactly but I know snipers had 100 rounds sniper ammo/300 standard, grunts had 600 rounds standard etc etc across the board. Gameplay was exemplary for the most part, and we very rarely had those "mexican standoffs" where one guy with a G3 holds up a whole team.

 

Clearly, thats not exactly on topic but I firmly believe that people are increasingly gravitating towards milsim events for various reasons and one of those is the onus on gameplay and style - in those situations the power inflation tends to be a non-factor because the limits should be designed to give snipers an edge in range, while limiting their effectiveness and the grunts are facing (for the most part) other users with lo-caps or standard mags and can utilise tactics to take advantage of that.

 

Don't misunderstand me - if people want to use high caps/play speedball-type games then all power to them and I hope they thoroughly enjoy their airsofting...its just not for me and to some extent I think that those kinds of games are exacerbating the problem.

 

 

 

Final note - the above is only my opinion and shouldn't be taken as an attack on individuals that choose to play in a certain way. I'm equally aware there are those who have axes to grind with the mil-sim crowd for whatever reason and as such I try to live and let live rather than provoking pointless arguments. Whatever you do, enjoy your airsoft.

[L4byr1nth]

*Looks*

 

 

*Takes a deep breath*

 

*Squints...*

 

Final note - the above is only my opinion and shouldn't be taken as an attack on individuals that choose to play in a certain way. I'm equally aware there are those who have axes to grind with the mil-sim crowd for whatever reason and as such I try to live and let live rather than provoking pointless arguments. Whatever you do, enjoy your airsoft.

 

Bugger.

 

 

I'm going to be attempting a decent GBB DMR soon, so I can judge for myself how effective it'll be, but I still think bolt action fits my playing style much better than an AEG.

 

It's all about fun, and I find capping people at range extremely so

 

Some great posts in here, but isn't this off-topic now?

 

Ben.

[Hammerfall]

It's all about fun, and I find capping people at range extremely so

 

So simple, yet so very true!

[Slim_Shady]

Yeah, its sorta wandering off topic for sure. The contributory effects are worth mentioning I guess, and perhaps the changes in technology and environment that lead us to our current situation are interesting but just sticking to the facts and mentioning our Country/Sites/Limits might keep the thread from...meandering quite so much

 

More on topic then - Fun is the keyword and my biggest concern is that we're heading towards power levels where the fun starts to diminish as the potential for needless accidents rises. 10j rifles might well be lethal...hell, 4j could be for all we know and I don't think that any skirmish needs more than 3j at max as long as the increments between weapons are sensible.

 

 

[Hammerfall]

Yeah, to get back on topic; High Power = Fail

 

Sorry, pardon my ignorance - i just couldn't resist it

[greg]

Yeah, to get back on topic; High Power = Fail

Also on topic:

 

No it don't. Just playing devils advocate you understand.

 

It's the understandable fear, of the injuries that 'high power' could cause. That,,,,er,,,,fails.

 

As said in my previous post (#20), some of the best games I have been involved in, have very little power regulation. As yet, no complaints & no injuries.

 

Also we have examples of countries running much higher limits, trouble free.

 

A big thanks to the chief for raising this topic & all who have so effectively contributed to it.

 

It was about time we dragged this one out of the 'flame-flame-flame' area that it used to be in.

 

 

Greg.

[Hammerfall]

I used my AW-338 at about 600fps, at the request of the chaps i was playing. Literally about 5 of us turned up to the site that day and they just said go for it. I must admit the gun did perform on another level, and they were definitely shittin' it.

[Slim_Shady]

600fps is the upper limit thats required IMO - anything beyond that doesn't make any sense. No power limits and careful players is generally a recipe for good games but its far from something you could do on open sites.

[Hammerfall]

Yeah, it was just a good bit of fun with about 5 of us - i could've gone higher than 600, but it would've performed dreadfully and even though i know the guys i'm not intent on hurting anyone.

 

3 of us had sniper rifles too, the chaps with their 500fps VSRs out shot me easily, if i'm honest.

[The Bushman]

Also on topic:

No it don't. Just playing devils advocate you understand.

 

It's the understandable fear, of the injuries that 'high power' could cause. That,,,,er,,,,fails.

 

Was a woman really killed in Japan with a Digicon Airsoft Pistol? I read it somewhere, as being the reason the Japanese law changed, to 1 Joule maximum. Could just be myth of course.

 

If so, what power was that gun upgraded to?

 

Good Hunting

[greg]

Was a woman really killed in Japan with a Digicon Airsoft Pistol? I read it somewhere, as being the reason the Japanese law changed, to 1 Joule maximum. Could just be myth of course.

 

If so, what power was that gun upgraded to?

 

Good Hunting

I would be amazed if that was true. & respectfull to the survivors of such a tragedy. (Family members etc.)

 

If it is true, the gun would have had to be well up on power (in airsoft terms) & the shot would have been very unlucky.

 

The 4 jule thing that Slim has referred to, was taken from a study, which was originally intended to establish, the minimum energy required, to humanely dispatch vermin (in the case of the study, a rabbit). It showed that 4j was enough to cleanly penetrate the brain & cause instantaneous death (for the rabbit), if the shot went through the soft tissue of the eye-ball, ear-drum or pallet on the roof of the mouth.

 

Over the years, this 4j thing has came up again & again in various forms, to verify the point of 'lethality'.

 

So, I would suggest that the Digicon example must have been over 4j, point-blank & 90 degrees to an open eye or ear. I would also suggest that death was far from instantaneous. The shot would have to do enough damage to cause a fatal hemorrhage to a human brain. A fairly large & resilient organ compared to that of a rabbit. The bb would also have to penetrate far more tissue before getting to the brain, ie, the comparative size of a human eye-ball, or ear canal.

 

A simple penetration test into ballistic jelly or putty will do. The distance to the brain, via the ear or eye is approx 35mm, so if you can get a bb through that, you are in. Then, consider how much damage you need to do to the brain, about another 30mm should do it. A slow bleed causing an eventual death if there was no medical attention available. 150mm would guarantee it.

 

So, there you go. Get your putty & your bb gun & let us know how far 500fps gets.

 

 

Greg.

 

PS, back in the '80's a woman near me was killed by a 6" bolt from a 30lbs cross bow. At the time, I owned one of these 'pistol bows' & could not believed it was lethal. It bounced off chipboard at 5m.

 

Unfortunately for her, the bolt was discharged point blank, up her nose. According to the inquiry, it took her approx 6 hours to bleed to death. There was no explanation, as to why she didn't seek medical attention. If she had got to a hospital, she probably would have been fine.

[Stealthbomber]

Eyes are tough although the skull behind them is thin.

 

There are nerves and blood vessels passing through the skull at the temple. A shot to the temple that penetrates the skin by a few millimetres can cause a fatal injury.