HIGH POWER!

[The Chef]

Seeing as it gets discussed. I thought I'd create a thread.

 

Firstly some RULES.

 

1: Post your location in the world

2: Post your local 'legal' limits and any 'MED's' associated with it.

3: Please state whether this is being used for Skirmishing or Target Shooting.

4: No name calling or bad mouthing.

 

 

This last one is the most important. If someone is displaying an opinion that is contrary to yours, accept it. You can disagree as freely as you want, but do not look down on the other person.

If they are taking a course of action that is LEGAL in their country, but you think its dangerous, by all means say you 'think its dangerous', but DON'T go on about it.

This is for sensible adult discussion. The moment someone detracts from this, I shall see to it they get warnings and/or suspensions.

 

This is for discussion and comment, NOT A SLAGGING MATCH.

 

Carry on Gentlemen!

 

 

[Pendra]

Hungary:

Games:

600 FPS (3.3J) with .2 for all type of AS guns, MED: 20m, Sidearm is mandatory, Min age: 18

Spec rules for AEGs

- Semi auto ONLY!

- Only 1 BB in the air

- No highcap

Misc rule: Min 95cm long, and should resemble a real life sniper rifle. So no Sniper MP5 or P90.

Target shooting:

Air/Gas operated rifle, max 7.5J. Anything over that energy requires a licence.

[ED-SKaR]

UK

Finmere airosft:

Snipers limited to spring power only

The sites limit for all guns that are not snipers is 350FPS, the snipers maximum is 500FPS measured with a .2.

MED is 30 meters.

All snipers require another weapon that shoots below 350, be it a pistol or an AEG.

Even spring rifles chronoing below 350FPS must obey the rules for snipers.

[Hammerfall]

Doesn't sound very high to me Ed

[ED-SKaR]

Doesn't sound very high to me Ed

 

500fps is what a lot of snipers are limited to (many sites have lower limits). unless i have missed the point of this and its to do with law. but the way the OP said 'legal' rather than legal i thought it was game sites not law.

 

 

 

Law in UK is up to one foot pound (380FPS ish) for anything, but only weapons that require a manual action can go higher than this (spring or bolt action gas for EG) they can go up to 12 foot pounds but thats way above what you'd use for airsoft.

[bitchtits]

is there a reason its spring only...

theres a site up by me that has stupid rules like that the allow 450 spring but 500fps gas,i think this is mainly due to alot of them using gas kar98s though,so they altered the rules to fit in around that.. a tad unfair.

 

my regular site is the fort scotland.

350fps for aegs and pistols, both have a 10m semi auto rule.

500fps on snipers with a 30m MED, all rifles over 350 must stick to a 30m MED.

only aegs alowed at 500fps are aegs disigned from the factor to be semi only, g&g sr25,psg1 ect

[chownsy]

is there a reason its spring only...

theres a site up by me that has stupid rules like that the allow 450 spring but 500fps gas,i think this is mainly due to alot of them using gas kar98s though,so they altered the rules to fit in around that.. a tad unfair.

 

my regular site is the fort scotland.

350fps for aegs and pistols, both have a 10m semi auto rule.

500fps on snipers with a 30m MED, all rifles over 350 must stick to a 30m MED.

only aegs alowed at 500fps are aegs disigned from the factor to be semi only, g&g sr25,psg1 ect

 

 

how can one stick to 30m, tell me how far 30m is when someone is hosing you and your adrenaline kicks in?

 

i was in a firefight with a 525fps vsr and i accidentally shot 2 people at fairly close range 1 to the goggles and it slapped there head back and one to a mates head (the round had bounced off a branch and hit him)

 

neither were intentional but i rapid fired at a target as i was under fire, he started running towards me and he was within 10m when he got hit.

 

the other i saw a target fired and a branch diverted the round to a closer target.

 

 

so if you say you have to stick to it then i dont see how you can,

 

sometimes a target looks further away and its infact only 20m or even 15.

 

adrenaline does affect judgement alot.

[Slim_Shady]

is there a reason its spring only...

 

Yeah. Until there's a proven level of lethality then people err on the side of caution and quote all sorts of ###### pertaining to the "UK legal limit" when in fact no-one knows where the level lies. People just tend to accept outdated rulings as gospel truth which means that 380fps (1.35j) is often touted as the "legal limit" when its merely a convention above which we know there's a possibility of Lethality but the definition of how that applies and why hasn't yet been proven as far as I know (i.e the definitions of firearm, lethal, weapon etc etc - see the endless threads arguing about it )

 

Best guess I've seen was an estimate of 4j of energy to cause a penetrating injury to the eye in humans.

 

What that means in practical terms is that at some point above 1.35j an AEG who's initial design wasn't SA only becomes a Section 5 Firearm - hence the spring/bolt action only caveat at some sites.

 

how can one stick to 30m, tell me how far 30m is when someone is hosing you and your adrenaline kicks in?

 

If you're unsure, don't shoot - or transition to a backup.

 

sometimes a target looks further away and its infact only 20m or even 15.

 

1) see above and 2) practice judging distance.

 

 

 

 

Local sites for me are FreeFirezone (345fps AEG's, 500fps for Bolt Actions/SA Only AEG's) and Close Action (370fps AEGs, 400fps SA only AEG's and 500fps for Bolt Actions).

 

 

 

 

[-Angel-]

is there a reason its spring only...

Yes. The finmere management decided that gas rifles of any kind are not allowed due to the ease of altering the FPS manually, or by a fluctuation in temperature. [Note - This isn't for debate, they are his events, and therefore his rules]

 

how can one stick to 30m, tell me how far 30m is when someone is hosing you and your adrenaline kicks in?

Frankly, and i'm sure people will agree, if you're taking shots at 10m with 525fps, regardless of the 'adrenaline' you shouldn't be allowed to take a bolt action onto the field. MED's aren't to incovenience people, they're to stop people getting hurt.

[Slim_Shady]

Yes. The finmere management decided that gas rifles of any kind are not allowed due to the ease of altering the FPS manually, or by a fluctuation in temperature. [Note - This isn't for debate, they are his events, and therefore his rules]

 

Ah, I got the wrong end of the stick and thought we were discussing something else - yarp, I was aware of the Finmere regulations in that regard.

 

 

Frankly, and i'm sure people will agree, if you're taking shots at 10m with 525fps, regardless of the 'adrenaline' you shouldn't be allowed to take a bolt action onto the field. MED's aren't to incovenience people, they're to stop people getting hurt.

 

Indeed.

[Rhyn0]

Romania:

AEG between 125 and 140 m/s must be semi-auto only, assault rifle length, and limited to realcap- 30BB/mag with 15m MED

Bolt actions 125-140 -15m MED

Bolt actions 140-170 - 25m MED.

 

170m/s(557 fps) is maximum allowed for snipers, 140m/s(460 fps) for DMR AEG.

[chownsy]

Yes. The finmere management decided that gas rifles of any kind are not allowed due to the ease of altering the FPS manually, or by a fluctuation in temperature. [Note - This isn't for debate, they are his events, and therefore his rules]

 

 

Frankly, and i'm sure people will agree, if you're taking shots at 10m with 525fps, regardless of the 'adrenaline' you shouldn't be allowed to take a bolt action onto the field. MED's aren't to incovenience people, they're to stop people getting hurt.

 

 

it was a small private game, that why no sites were mentioned. as i said, the player ran towards me, and actually dived into cover thats why it hit his glasses and not the torso i aimed at, plus the other was a ricochet which you also forgot to comment on. how can we stop that happening. your in a covered position, you accidentally fire nearer to a bush than you wanted and it hits a blowing branch which spits it at a different angle. it will still have alot of its energy yet be un-aimed.

 

i was just saying about adrenaline can cause miss shots.

 

most the time im taking 40-50m shots and more

[Stealthbomber]

how can one stick to 30m, tell me how far 30m is when someone is hosing you and your adrenaline kicks in?

 

adrenaline does affect judgement alot.

As others have said, if you can't judge distance then you shouldn't be using a sniper rifle.

TBH, although I find it a bit elitist the way some sites insist on people passing a "sniper exam" before being allowed to use a sniper rifle it's normal for a site to only allow trustworthy players to use more powerful weapons.

It sounds like you need to have L-Plates refitted and not be allowed any gun more powerful than 1J until you CAN judge distances.

 

FWIW, Personally I snipe in pre-determined positions and, when the opposition advances, I immediately transition to another weapon or break contact.

 

Anyway, up here (scotland) we have formal skirmish limits of 1.1J (350fps) for AEGs and 2.3J (500fps) for gas and spring snipers.

We also have informal limits where trusted players are allowed to use higher powered AEGs in a variety of roles (support weapons, DMRs and semi-auto electric snipers).

Sniper rifles have a 20m MED and the same applies to any people using AEGs with "discretionary" power levels.

It's worth mentioning, as well, that we don't allow people using higher-powered AEGs to group together into elite little cliques. The people are evenly distributed among the teams.

 

All these figures are for skirmishing. We do, on occasion, bring stupidly powerful guns for a bit of target shooting and showing off but they're never used in-game.

I live in something of a hunting, shooting and fishing area so if people want to play with guns we have plenty of shotguns, bolties and straight-pull rifles to shoot so upgrading airsoft guns beyond skirmish limits is a bit redundant.

[chownsy]

As others have said, if you can't judge distance then you shouldn't be using a sniper rifle.

TBH, although I find it a bit elitist the way some sites insist on people passing a "sniper exam" before being allowed to use a sniper rifle it's normal for a site to only allow trustworthy players to use more powerful weapons.

It sounds like you need to have L-Plates refitted and not be allowed any gun more powerful than 1J until you CAN judge distances.

 

FWIW, Personally I snipe in pre-determined positions and, when the opposition advances, I immediately transition to another weapon or break contact.

 

Anyway, up here (scotland) we have formal skirmish limits of 1.1J (350fps) for AEGs and 2.3J (500fps) for gas and spring snipers.

We also have informal limits where trusted players are allowed to use higher powered AEGs in a variety of roles (support weapons, DMRs and semi-auto electric snipers).

Sniper rifles have a 20m MED and the same applies to any people using AEGs with "discretionary" power levels.

It's worth mentioning, as well, that we don't allow people using higher-powered AEGs to group together into elite little cliques. The people are evenly distributed among the teams.

 

All these figures are for skirmishing. We do, on occasion, bring stupidly powerful guns for a bit of target shooting and showing off but they're never used in-game.

I live in something of a hunting, shooting and fishing area so if people want to play with guns we have plenty of shotguns, bolties and straight-pull rifles to shoot so upgrading airsoft guns beyond skirmish limits is a bit redundant.

 

 

did i put a date on when that happened???

 

i was not saying WOW i just done this, i was telling people what can happen when things go wrong or adrenaline blinds judgement.

 

I have been in airsoft a good 7 years now and sniping for a good 2, that happened at a none formal game that was about a yearish ago maybe more.

 

im very good with distance and things.

 

like people say, it takes practice to judge it all.

 

[Slim_Shady]

Nothing much to add further to that to be honest - eminently sensible and completely reasonable. I like to see further MED's but what I think is required (35m at least) and the range at which most sniper's transition/break tend to be safe enough given responsible bodies on the field.

 

Quick aside:

 

im very good with distance and things.

 

he started running towards me and he was within 10m when he got hit.

 

Transition or Break.

[chownsy]

that incident i said happened a while ago.

 

i rarely take a firearm out when in ghillie or sniper kit as less weight to carry and holsters aint great to carry.

 

Im usually hiding and will let people past.

 

on that game i hadn't a side arm in the country lol

 

 

but enough of that ill stop talking about it

[Stealthbomber]

did i put a date on when that happened???

Well, I can't second-guess what you were trying to say but when you say stuff like

how can one stick to 30m, tell me how far 30m is when someone is hosing you and your adrenaline kicks in?

It suggests that you don't know any better than that.

 

If you'd said something like "Ages ago, when I first started sniping, I once made a shot well inside the MED because of adrenaline." it would have come across in a totally different way.

 

Even so, whether it was last year or last week the fact remains that you shouldn't have been using a high-powered gun if you weren't capable of judging an MED correctly.

 

i rarely take a firearm out when in ghillie or sniper kit as less weight to carry and holsters aint great to carry.

Erm, I should hope not.

 

Personally, I don't really believe in the whole "crawling through the undergrowth" thing so it's easy to snipe and carry summat like a P90 or at least a pistol.

[chownsy]

Personally, I don't really believe in the whole "crawling through the undergrowth" thing so it's easy to snipe and carry summat like a P90 or at least a pistol.

 

 

thats you and not me i love crawling (but this is getting off the topic of high power)

[bitchtits]

As everyone else, and im not having ago if you cant judge MEDs you shouldnt be using a rifle that requires one.

That applys to anyone, if adrenalin,clouds your judgement you shouldnt be using a high powered rifle aswell.

 

If people get caught engaging under the med at my site, they will get warned severaly, if it happens again they will be asked/told not to use that gun again ,maby for ever or until they can prove that they are able to.Thats if they dont get banned.

I know one player has been banned for ever ,due to engaging targets under 30m with a 500fps rifle.

 

I do like the idea, of having to pass a test, to prove that you can use one.

But i would prefer it to go back to the days, like when i started over 8 years ago.Then you had to be over 18 or 21 and a regular player on some sites before you were allowed to use a 500fps rifle.

 

I just get worried about young and new player, picking up a 500fps and hurting someone, due to lack of knowlage, or maturity,that and the fact that most thuink 500fps is needed when they have never even used the rifle yet.

I know i will probably get flack for that but thats what i beleave should apply.

 

As a prime example was last year at a weekender a newish player running at 500fps rifle decided to take it out in the dark,and i mean dark, you couldnt see more than 10m max.

He fired at me and another player walking back to respawn, luckily the bb went between us and missed(went right between our heads as we were walking side by side).

 

I aproached him and angrly had a go at him, swearing alot, asking what the hell he though he was doing,.

His excuse was its dark and i couldnt tell how far away you were .....arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Back at the safe zone i contacted the head marshal, and told him, he very quickly told everyone that no high powred rifles running 500fps were aloud to be used anymore.

Two minutes later another new player walked past me with a bar-10, so i said " mate you cant use that now, no high powered rfiles are allowed"

his reply was "he said no rifles at 500fps mine only runs 450fps"

 

i wouldnt expect an older player or experienced player to do this, though ive seen quite afew older,regular players be total fannys with a 500fps rifle aswell

 

[greg]

Ah, what the heck, I'll stick my neck out.

 

Please don't judge me, my name is Greg & I'm an addict.

 

UK, where the common formula at most of the games I attend is now 350 (sort of upto 370) for aegs & 500 for bolties. MED for the bolties is usually 20 or 30m. 30m is now more popular.

 

I tend to rarely engage under 40m, but have been known to do a 30 if I have to. When taking up a position the first thing I do, is use a Bushnell range finder to get specific distances on all available firing lines. This saves me time later & avoids any mistakes. I'm *suitcase* hot at range estimation but if I have the time, prefer not to leave anything to chance.

 

This is going to be controversial, but what the heck:

 

I have been involved in private, invite only games that throw caution to the wind & the only limits have been set by what people have bought. I have seen 450fps full autos & 650+ bolties (usually aps2's ).

 

All the people at these events are happy with the situation & no one has ever turned up, blind to the lack of limits, or expecting a 328fps type environment. In fact, I would say, the high power nature is actually the attraction.

 

At these events (& only these events) I usually run somewhere between 535 & 590fps, with a self imposed 40m med.

 

You may think this strange but it is fair to say, that as yet, no one has ever been hurt. In fact, there are usually, less marks on peoples body, than an average day at any 'normal' 328-350 type site.

 

I guess it's all about people being sensible. We are all mates & no one wants to get hurt or hurt anyone else. Engagement distances are usually a little further than you would expect. A lot less ammo gets used, & big guns are readily dumped for pistols, when it looks like it is going to get close. People take their hits, even floaters that come from no where.

 

When sniping at any other sites, I make a point of being chronoed (whether everyone else is or not), for everyone's piece of mind. If there is any doubt, I make a point of working with the site organisers to get a thorough understanding of their 'snipee' requirements. If there is still doubt, I just pitch in the the aeg brigade. I am sometimes invited to an event, by the organisers, specifically as a sniper: "we need a sniper this Sunday, are you free?", or "I hope you are bringing the sniper rifle, it wouldn't be the same without it".

 

Anyone reading these forums will know that I have run a 190 spring which gave 665fps. I never took it skirmishing, ever, any where.

 

A little like 'Fresh' recently, I was interested in what the limits were on a vsr. Obviously I wasn't actually getting close (having seen the recent 800fps+ examples) but in my little world, it seemed a lot.

 

I spent an afternoon at my local range & the result was a bruised shoulder form the hard bolt pull & no additional accuracy over my stock 500fps(ish) set ups. I believe the reason was the ammo. I was on sgms, & tbh, they just don't give any benefit over 550 fps. However, if I had a semi decent .4 at that time, I'm sure I would have seen improvement in range etc.

 

This would of course have no bearing on my skirmishing but it's always nice to know. As soon as I get a bit of time & the right conditions, the devil .4's will get tested in conjunction with the 190. I just have to know. I really don't see the harm, as this will not be done at a skirmish, or any where near a skirmish environment. It will be done at my local shooting club, to the amusement of my airgun & shotgun buddies. Who's interest, patience & input, I always value.

 

In the past & currently, I have spent a lot of time testing ammo & gun combinations at various ranges. I'm just naturally interested. I do things like, getting mates to shoot me at all the ranges I expect to hit my targets. I get them to fire close to my head, so I know what a near miss is like for the recipient. I get them to shoot solid materials, like metal, concrete, wood, water & the floor, next to me so that I understand how the bb impacts or ricochets & how a target may or may not notice this. & I do penetration tests through bushes & tree canopies, at various ranges to see if bb's will make it through & how much noise they make.

 

I make silly notes about holdover/under, into the wind, with the wind behind & to the side, so I truly understand what the bb does after I pull the trigger. I vary the hop & notice the effect, I work with mates on radios at various ranges to get their opinion on noise & bb origin direction. I fire bb's up hill, down hill, in the wind, rain & fog. When it snowed, I got a mate round to shoot at & around me.

 

 

& then, I go skirmishing.

 

Flame on.

 

 

Greg.

 

PS. When sniping, my 'back up' is usually a very dependable & dedicated 2 or 3 man aeg team (I love you guise ). We keep in constant radio contact. They are excellent at respecting 'our' concealment & only blow cover when absolutely necessary. We usually have a fall back plan. My side arm (which rarely has to be used, but comes into it's own if I am on my own) is an upgraded (285fps, 1200rps), silenced Marui Glock 18 aep.

[chownsy]

to clear this all up.

 

My example was at a site with no MED (it was asked at teh start of the game, the marshalls asked about the fps my rifle, they made sure everyone was ok with it, the recepient of the shots were 2 mates of mine. i made sure they were both ok after incase anythink bad happened) either, i do use common sense.

 

im vary careful. I actually wont take a shot with a 350fps AEG unless i know i wont get caught or injure the person when sniping.

 

so please, enough of this,

 

my origional comment was how do you know MED, also what stops someone running in your LOF as you pul the trigger.

 

back to the high power i would love to be able to target shoot with a high power rifle (like i did with the army cadets) but i would only do that on a range with all the safety instructors about.

 

 

[The Chef]

Not withstanding all the real 'legal' grey areas over here in the UK.....

 

We run 350 Max on AEG's and 500 for single shot rifles with a MED of 20m. I've got a bit of a discretionary limit of 450 on Semi only AEG's, and I have to personally make sure that they are not capable of a full auto shot (more from a legal Sec5 point of view rather than an 'airsoft' one), but I've not had to check one yet.

 

These limits have served us well for about 9 years now with pretty much no incidents.

 

I think it's all about just keeping your head screwed on and only taking a shot you know you can place. In my own opinion there is a very big difference between taking a headshot at MED and hitting someone in the backside or thighs at the same range.

 

I'd have to think long and hard about the first shot, but have no qualms what so ever about the second.

 

So I think it's all a question of sensibility really. And as being in a somewhat specialist role, I'd hope that everyone here is 'correctly wired up' and as such can make these kind of judgement calls.

 

I know there are some interesting interpretations of the UK legal system, but a lot of ground can be covered when you understand that 'consent' is a legal defence to injury, so by entering a game where you know that 'high-power' rifles are going to be used, you are effectively consenting to be shot by one (including accidental within MED shots), and also there was a recent civil legal case that fell in favour of an outdoor pursuits centre reasoning that they were not liable for a persons injury because all safety equipment had been provided, and the potential dangers for injury had been pointed out to the participant before they took place. Therefore the person engaged in that activity full in the knowledge that 'an injury might occur'

 

 

Just as a complete aside, one of our old guys played over in Russia a couple of times and I think he said they were running AEG's at up to 600fps... With NO MED!!

 

How mad is that!

[bitchtits]

yeah we had a russian guy at uni in edinburgh come to our site a year or so for a few games, he brought his full auto 550fps full auto aeg with him.

his reasoning was that most engagements were around 40-50m or more and it was that powerfull so that it could cut through undergrowth.

he said the ranges were that far as they played over sites that were 10X bigger than any uksite.

 

he wasnt aloud to use it by the way

[The General]

I was the one who got shot in the goggles!

 

God bless ESS NVG's!

 

In fairness, I was running forward with an MG36 and about to start HUGE hosing when I hit the ground. Accidents happen and the adrenaline was up on all sides. Easy to happen but I know that this has made chownsy a lot more careful as I think he was rather shocked at how my head snapped back. It was only after the event that we all realised how close things were range wise. There was certainly no anger and it was totally not intentional. The ESS goggles? Not even a smudge mark.

 

I am sure if chownsy had been using a sidearm he would have switched to that had he realised the range. Part of the problem is I am a big guy and carrying an MG36 and another gun (IIRC it was my SRC AK47 on my back) you do not expect someone of my "bulk" to move that fast and get into position that quickly. Que looking down a scope when perspective is greatly changed and suddenly its all very easy to get wrong. I can imagine the thought processes... " he got there HOW quickly?"

 

Though I would add, I am now starting to use a double mouth guard after others using hi powered semi DMR's have shot me repeatedly in the head... I tend to present my head a lot as the only viable target...

 

The lesson learnt here is its easy to make mistakes when the adrenaline kicks in and no one is perfect. Every shot is a judgement call and I have at very close range (3 meters or less CQB) called myself out rather than shoot someone with a 350 fps gun. Or get hit in return with a gun at that power. Sometimes you just do not feel safe or happy with a shot so you do not take it. I am sure this is now more the case for chownsy and he has learnt an important lesson.

 

So... moving on...

[brokenhalo]

first i would like to ask ????? RAPID FIRE WITH A VSR ??????

 

Right gents my 3 pennies worth

I play Spec ops . Dorset ... 325aeg 425 sa 500 bolt/gas

my chosen play style is 425 SA Only

 

High power is fantastic in principal and i would say the lethality issue is blown out of the water by Sim-u-nition being used in" the real world" as training aids throwing heavy wieght paint rounds @ over 1200 fps .

 

I for one have no problems with a trustworthy opponent running at much highter fps but...

 

as proven on our site a few times there is a lot of sub standard safety gear available ( imported glasses for one ) which when taken away from a player in a SAFE ZONE and demonstrated cannot take a point blank hit at 350fps SA ... they shatter .....after such a practical demonstration i have never known anyone to have an issue with upgrading to better gear .... but there are many out there unaware or sadly to tight to buy pukka kit .

as we have seen seasoned players have openly admited to unaceptable behavour and lack of skills for such high velocitys

even when Meds are introduced a player should be able to accurately judge his range..... (LOL for those of you that dont know ...its the lenght of my garden LOL)

 

I understand it is not allways practical to transverse to a side arm but...

Limits should not be lifted untill certain members of the airsoft community cant accept a "bang" kill..... any sniper worth his salt should be able to hit a torso at even 30m Med . and as such sould be able to call a bang if he gets the drop on a clear shot ( not to be confused with just walking round shouting bang).

Even at lower fps i observe this courtesy and players that know me will often take a bang at 25m + . I play as i would like others to play ..I cant enforce it ...but how much better would our game experiences be ?

 

some guys just dont realise when they have been caught with their trousers down and if they do aint man enough to admit it .

 

I like the idea of "trusted " players being given the privelidge of "hotter" weapons but i think the site owner must take the responcability of knowing the players game style long enough to know if this would be weilded irresponsably (yeah my spelling sucks ) and if unsure a blatant NO till proved otherwise.

 

I think high power is fine as long as its restricted to mil-sim and restricted ammo load-outs .. if you cant hit it ...dont shoot.

 

well you asked for an oppinion lol

 

Ps edited after thought ...... What if Hi Power users wore a marker/Tag as identification and a warning to other participants... although opening a new can of worms it would help to police the issue and hi power players would have to stay cleaner than clean