The British Army of the Cold War

[33lima]

Some personal interpretations of the Cold War look as used in skirmishes over the last couple of years:

 

Para Reg 1970s, repro 59 Pattern Denison Smock (as sold by Silvermans, OG lightweight trousers,58 Pattern webbing with 44 Pattern water bottle pouch, boots are current issue rather than DMS, SLR is a KA FAL with some real parts:

 

 

 

Para Reg 1980s, DPM ParaSmock, 68 DPM trousers, 58 Pattern CEFO, helmet Mk6 disgiused as fibre para, wpn KA L1A1 SLR with real carry handle:

 

 

UDR 1970s, 68 Pattern DPM smock, OG lightweight trousers, 58 Pattern CEFO, SLR is the KA FAL at an earlier stage with plastic SLR handguard, then in current form with wooden furniture and 58 Pattern belt order:

 

 

 

Inf 1970s, cammed Mk4 helmet, 68 smock with woolen cuffs sewn in, lightweight trousers, 58 Pattern CEFO KA SLR before the real carry handle was fitted:

 

 

Inf 1970s again but with rare 60 Pattern DPM trousers, below a DPM para smock:

 

[Gadge]

Cheers Gadge

 

It'll be up for sale soon as I have no need for it!!

 

 

To be honest its worth hanging onto if only for the fact that good condition ones cost about £4 these days. The postage would cost someone more than they are worth.

We use them to line the floor of tents on wet events or to put display kit on. If anything its a good practical filler for your poncho roll in case you want somewhere dry to sit at a skirmish.

 

If it was a tan one it woudl got for about £50 in avergae nick and £35 wrecked.

[33lima]

A few more Op Banner colour pics.

 

Troops in Belfast in the very early days, probably late summer 1969, wood stock SLRs, 58 Pattern webbing, 1960 Pattern combats, partially-cammed Mk4 helmets with no riot visors. Location(s) n/k but probably somewhere in Belfast, possibly Falls Rd, regiment n/k,but might be Royal Regt of Wales:

 

 

 

Last pic is copyright Soldier Magazine as used on the cover of the book whose title appears on the image, and shows a sgt and another soldier of the Welsh Guards, location n/k, date probably about 1973. Note the 68 Pattern DPM suits and wood furniture SLRs with the later, rounded "Australian" pattern handguard, slung to wrist. Early pattern (M69?) flak jackets with no collars or anti-slip shoulder pads. Webbing is 58 Pattern belt with water bottle pouch on RH side and ammo pouch on LH side. Sgt carries what appears to be a wooden baton tucked vertically into the flak jacket via the left armpit with tip of handle and thong showing, a common position. The other soldier's DPM smock actually looks like the original 66 Pattern, as it seems to have the early turn-down cross-stitched collar instead of the 68 Pattern's zip-up one (the actor playing General Ford in the film "Bloody Sunday" is wearing one of these early 66 Pattern DPM smocks):

 

[Panoptes]

This thread is full of win. [/subscribes]

 

 

[33lima]

Some pics of my '58 Pattern Combat Equipment Fighting Order (CEFO) rig, made up from left to right of LH ammo pouch, respirator haversack, pair kidney pouches with cape carrier underneath, water bottle pouch, 2xRH ammo pouches. 1958 Pattern infantry entrenching tool fitted to yoke attachment. Alongside is Mk4 steel helmet with net and cammed up with hessian or hemp strips and pieces of plastic camo net. SLRs are Star (with SUIT sight), King Arms (with real carry handle) and KA FAL with some real SLR parts and others visually modified to resemble L1A1 pattern.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Jon]

having already done some poking around and coming up with nothing i figured this would be the place to ask.

 

i bought an OD PLCE looking pouch as it seemed to be something special, the attachments are completely different to the other PLCE i have lying around, and theres no green label, simply a stamping

 

as far as i know it isnt irish and its also a bit scuffed and full of sand, any ideas?

 

 

cheers guys

[Gadge]

I had some spanish webbing that looked a bit like that years ago i think?

[Mr. Jon]

i had a look, all the spanish webbing i can find even in photos is in their woodland/erdl or leather and canvas, could still be the case though.

 

cheers gadge.

[phaserrifle]

i had a look, all the spanish webbing i can find even in photos is in their woodland/erdl or leather and canvas, could still be the case though.

 

cheers gadge.

 

could be a prototype version

although I have a feeling that the origional version of PLCE had the C-hooks, possibly in part to allow it to be used with the older issue (but still common while PLCE was first rolled out) 58 pattern we all know and love

[Mr. Jon]

thats what i originally thought, and the combination of one C-hook and Lift the dot flap does work well, but is probebly more expensive than 2 C-hooks which could have lead to it being abandoned?

 

all speculation though.

[White_Rabbit]

man 33lima all those photos brought back some memories of 2 books I had called Combat and the other Called Survival (just like the magazine) so much so I dug them out and nearly all of those pics are in them awesome, had totaly forgot I had those books.

[33lima]

Yes you're spot on, several of the pics are indeed from those long out-of-print books; not that many people seem to have them but they must surely be one of the best unrestricted, open source books ever printed on what was then current kit and infantry tactics - where else would you get full-page photo spreads showing nothing else but 58 webbing and recommended contents in detail, a section on "how to customise your SLR" and all the rest! The perfect supplement to a 1970s-era "*rickroll* and Dora" copy of "Basic Battle Skills" (loaned my issue copy yonks ago and had to resupp via eBay!)

[White_Rabbit]

funnily enough I saw a copy of each at an indoor market for £4 each, may pop back there and see if they still have them.

[33lima]

Go for it Whiterabbit, if you're interested in that recent era they're excellent, good pressie for an airsofting mate if you already have copies

 

Anyhoo, some more pics, mostly vehicles this time and all from the personal archive this time hence "instamatic/polaroid quality".

 

Top row, left to right:

 

Felix at work - 321 EOD Unit Saracen, possibly a Mk2, Antrim Rd/junction with Rosemount Gardens, N Belfast, c.1974. This and the Pig beside it were dealing with a bomb in a devliery truck at a Maxol petrol station a couple of hundred meters up the road (the bomb had just gone off and Felix was just packing up at this point, area had been evacuated and there were no cas and minimal damage). Satin-finish Deep Bronze Green overall, note the dalglo orange hi vis panels applied below the radiator and on the sides between the wheels. Although in the specialist EOD role this one has the Browning 30 cal fitted in the turret.

 

Desert camo Saracen, registration 06FF51, probably a Mk3 with its desert air "RFC" cooling system, parked up on the Cavehill Rd in N Belfast, dated 22 August 1972, one of the vehicles I think were brought out of storage to boost APC numbers for Operation Motorman, the successful op to end the PIRA "no go" areas. I THINK the crew were Royal Marine Commandos.

 

Self hamming it up with a Browning 9mm, Magilligan camp, probably late 1976 or early 1977, wearing flack jacket, '58 webbing, '68 DPM and cap badge blackened.

 

Bottom row, left to right:

 

Frontal view of the ATO's Saracen, showing the registration to be 80BA61, with the crew's Pig in the background. IIRC the "Wheelbarrow" robot was in the Saracen not the Pig.

 

Rear view of the sand Saracen 06FF51. Females in the red were my mum and her sister who I think had dropped them off a tray of tea and biccies.

 

Two of four Ferret Scout Cars that had set up a VCP on the Cavehill Rd/junction with Rosemount Gardens (almost outside my family home!) on 23 August 1972. Some were painted Deep Bronze Green only, others had a black disruptive pattern on top. Nearest vehicle shows the folding transparent Makrolon shield fitted to the turret rear for the Internal Security role.

 

 

[33lima]

Some Falklands pics of booties and paras, which you may or may not have seen before:

 

40 Commando with the captured Commander Cameletti; the webbing seems to be fairly standard 58 Pattern with a 44 Pattern water bottle pouch visible; the smocks look like the windproof type but the trousers look like the olive green lightweight type. Shows that the Marines seem to have worn para helmets; tho The guy in the middle with the SLR (complete with SUIT sight mount) seems to have DMS boots with puttes so maybe he's a para (the bootie on the right seems to wear the special boots the marines had, the paras got these too but did not have time to break them in). The guy on the right looks like he's wearing a DPM Combat Cap, well cammed up:

 

 

Said to be marines of Naval Party 8901 near Government House after the surrender. Many seem to be wearing headovers under their windproof smocks, common with the marines in the Falklands but seemingly rare with other units; the guy to the right of the flag seems to have some kind of telescopic sight on his cammed-up SLR:

 

 

A patrol said to be from 2 Para moving through Stanley. The last two seem to be wearing olive green lightweight trousers, while the first two seem to have para smocks (note the visible flap-less zip, knitted cuffs and shoulder epaulettes, the former to characteristic of para smocks) while the last one seems to have a windproof one (sewn-on hood, no epaulettes [or fitted chest and back rather than shoulders], storm flap over zip, velcro-secured cuffs. Little or no webbing seems to be worn:

 

 

Some men of 3 Para in Stanley. Note the variery of dress - berets, para helmets, CWW "Dangerous Brian" cap, DPM and lightweight (or maybe 60 Pattern) trousers. Smocks all look to be windproof type (one or two bright enough to resemble DPM waterproofs). Note also the two wooden-stock SLRs, apparently a these were being issued from war energency stock right up till the early 1980s. Note the common practice of blousing smocks up at the bottom, using the lower drawstrings:

 

[Gadge]

Some Falklands pics of booties and paras, which you may or may not have seen before:

Shows that the Marines seem to have worn para helmets;

No, that wil be the marines pattern helmet, same shell different liner. Very similar to the late war RAC tank helmet IIRC. Note the chintrap will be suspended by two points like a mkiv or mkv and not at the back of the neck as well like a para helmet.

 

 

 

 

. Note the common practice of blousing smocks up at the bottom, using the lower drawstrings:

 

 

 

Still done when i was in and i still do it is i wear DPM smocks as a matter of habit. Looks ally and stops you getting the hem of your jacket mucked up when you sit down in the field.. on the cons side it makes the bottom two pockets of your smock useless though.

[Staffy]

My vintage jungle loadout...

 

 

 

 

 

[33lima]

Nice kit there Staffy, including the early M16!

 

Some more reference pics, all MoD ones from Soldier Magazine I believe:

 

Posed pic of 58 Pattern webbing worn as CEFO (Combat Equipment Fighting Order, sometimes described as Complete Equipment Fighting Order, the former I think is correct). Probably taken late 1950s - note the SLR is one of the experimental/proving models with top cover fitted to allow loading by stripper clip. Helmet probably the Mk4, uniform probably 1960 Pattern (or the limited-issue 1950 Pattern to which it was apparently identical apart from label designations), DMS boots with puttees. Unit and location n/k.

 

 

Soldier from the Royal Corps of Transport, Northern Ireland, probably mid-1970s. SLR with wooden furnitire including the later 3-hole, rounded "Australian" pattern handguard, complete with SUIT 4x optical sight. Unusual, possibly ex-US flak jacket with pop fastener front instead of the normal velcro, and no rubber or vinyl shoulder anti-slip pads. SUIT sight has the early pressed steel range adjustment lever bottom right of the label) rather than the later, more common silver-tipped metal rod. He appears to be wearing the widely-issued one-piece olive green coveralls (a sort of "boiler suit" thingy).

 

 

Officer of the Devon & Dorset Regt with signaller, probably mid 1980s. Both wear what looks like 1984 Pattern DPM combats (most commonly described as 85 Pattern for some reason, but ex-RSM Mike Chappel says it's '84 and I ain't arguing with a Badge) - note the lack of lining on the rolled-up sleeves this could be cut out of 68 pattern but I think those might be "bellows" (rather than the flatter "patch") pockets on the trousers and I think smock too, if so not 68 Pattern. 1958 Pattern CEFO webbing. Officer has a "black plastic" (Maranyl, strictly speaking) -furnitured SLR and probably a khaki officer's shirt with the collar worn outside the smock as was common especially when not wearing a "wooly pulley" in between. Other ranks would normally wear an olive green Shirt, KF (not sure if KF is for Khaki Field or Knitted Fabric, but in the 1960s and 1970s it was made from a coarse, irritatingly "hairy Mary" material, the more modern ones commonly found in surplus stores are from a cotton-type fabric) which could be faded, washed or bleached out to a more khaki (earth) shade IIRC. Signaller has an SMG, radio believed to be a Clansman PRC 352. Note also that the SLR, and not a pistol or an SMG, was the normal issue personal weapon of infantry platoon commanders(typically Lieutenants or 2nd Lieutenants).

 

[33lima]

A few more MoD reference pics from Soldier Magazine.

 

Company Commander's R (recce) Group, probably. Royal Anglian Regt, Salisbury Plain, during Ex Avon Express. Date n/k but probably mid-to-late 1970s. The Major in front has an SLR with all or mostly wooden furniture including the later rounded "Aussie" handguard - the butt MIGHT be black plastic, my own SLR, A53317 made at Enfield in 1958, started out life like that when I was issued it in Autumn 1976. He and the bloke standing behind him with the plastic-furnitured SLR are wearing 1958 Pattern CEFO webbing and 1968 DPM combats, as are presumably the SMG-armed signaller with the SR A41 Larkspur-series radio and the bloke to the rear. Face Paint would have been dark brown only in those days, squeezed from a largish, green flat toothpaste-tube type dispenser, none of that green stuff now common (I never saw any, at any rate) or those lah-de-dah girlie compacts with mirrors. The standing rifleman has what looks like his respirator haversack on his right hip, probably attached by the belt loop between pouches as I can't see the seaprate shoulder strap. Unit SOPs would determine such things as which side and how the ressie bag was worn, also where you carried your First Field Dressings (in the 68 pattern's little front trouser pocket, the 84 smock's shoulder pocketor wherever, also where you recorded your zap number (used to ID you on the radio without revealing your name to anyone listening in, if you became a casualty, known in the parlance of the time as "getting zapped"). Respirator would have been the S6 pattern with oval eyepieces rather than the later S10 with rounds ones, I reckon:

 

 

Soldiers of the Parachute Regt undergoing some form of instruction in Bermuda; battalion and date n/k but before 1977. Note the total variety in the green and brown patterns on their 1959 Pattern Denison smocks. Trousers are likely olive green lighweights aka denims. Boots are DMS ankle boots with khaki puttees. I get the impression some at least are wearing collared shirts under their smocks. Some wear a reduced order of '58 webbing with what looks like belt, yoke, LH ammo pouch, RH ammo pouch & water bottle pouch, which I have heard referred to as "musketry order" (was sometimes used for range practices):

 

 

Men of 6 Ghurka Rifles in olive green jungle dress. Webbing believed to be 44 Pattern, the water bottle pouches certainly, tho the visible ammo pouches look like 58 Pattern, but lack some of the latter's fittings eg the loops for the cape carrier's clips - anyway they would be more use for carrying LMG (ex-Bren) mags than the little 20-rd mags for the early AR15/M16 rifles carried (note tulip, open-prong flash hiders, lack of bolt assist, lack of mag release "fences"). Guy with back to the camera looks to have a 2-colour scrim face veil worn as a scarf/sweat rag:

 

[PedroPato]

I have some questions regarding uniform and gear.

 

The tropical jacket/shirt was used in jacket way or tucked in while on campaign?

 

Which kind of belt was used in the pattern 68 trousers, pattern 85 trousers, pattern 94 and tropical trousers?

 

Which shirt was used beneath the tropical shirt/jacket?

 

Was the wool jumper used beneath the pattern 68 and 85 smock while on campaign?

 

 

My best regards, PedroPato.

[Gadge]

 

He appears to be wearing the widely-issued one-piece olive green coveralls (a sort of "boiler suit" thingy).

 

 

 

I'd query that looks *exactly* like a 60 pattern jacket to me, they tend to be cut quite short and the buttons in odd places, see the 'gape' below the vest , mine does that too even though its the right size for me.

[Gadge]

I have some questions regarding uniform and gear.

 

The tropical jacket/shirt was used in jacket way or tucked in while on campaign?

 

Which kind of belt was used in the pattern 68 trousers, pattern 85 trousers, pattern 94 and tropical trousers?

 

Which shirt was used beneath the tropical shirt/jacket?

 

Was the wool jumper used beneath the pattern 68 and 85 smock while on campaign?

 

 

My best regards, PedroPato.

 

The jacket/shirt on the tropicals is normally tucked in I beleive, i've not done jungle training and never wore a tropical shirt (only the torusers on UK exercise as they used to dry quickly)

 

Belts...

 

You got issued a bloody horrible plastic belt to go officially around the smock when webbing wasnt worn. Most lads i knew 'aquired' a 58 pattern belt which was the 'gucci' thing to wear around lines on your trousers. When 95s came in there was a belt for that but i always used to wear a stable belt (ours was pretty gucci in that itwas all black rather than some garish mix of colours).

 

In the field most lads used the belt ties on the trousers themsleves as the last thing you want under your CBA, webbing and smock is another belt rubbing your middle raw.

 

You dont wear a shirt under the tropical shirt as far as i know, again with 95s it was acceptable to wear a green or regimental coloured t-shirt under the 'lightweight combat jacket' short in the field or around lines. I'd imagine some guys wore a t-shirt under their tropicals but I shouldnt imagine you'd want to in belize.

 

The wool jumper was indeed used and part of the essential cold weather layering system you were *supposed* to carry.

 

In theory the layers went in my first issue:

 

t-shirt (probably not on issue for 60/70s, GS shirt (an olive green cotton type shirt), wooley pully, quilted combat jacket liner (the infamous 'chinese fighting suit - bulky and rubbish, didnt isulate you and took up loads of room in your bergan.. the only time i used mine out of training was as a housecoat in the winter) and then your combat jacket.

 

In reality those that could aquired 'Norgies' in the 80s and onwards (Norwegian quarter zipped towelling type shirts) or civilian hking tops to put under your smock.

 

I do remember doing an exercise in catterick in JUNE when we were forced to carry the complete cold weather kit in our bergans and had our kit checked minutes before marchin off into the area to check nobody had binned theirs.

 

So yep worn all the time as far as I recall.

[Gadge]

 

 

 

 

 

Note also the 1950s era jungle boots, designed to be 'disposable' as WWII experience meant that even leather ammo boots survived about two weeks in the jungle.

 

Looks like one chap may have wrapped puttees round them as well to deter leechs and increase ankle support, you'll also notice hes tied loops of string to blouse his torusers below the knee... apparently done to prevent snagging on undergrowth but likely to be as much a stylisitic thing.

 

I was lucky enough to pick up a mint condition pair for £12 last year... first pair i'd seen in about a decade too...

 

Pretty much like a pair of converse baseball boots on steroids and in a weird mid shade of green.

 

Actually easier to show you the colour on this pic from the african mercs thread.

 

[33lima]

I'd query that looks *exactly* like a 60 pattern jacket to me, they tend to be cut quite short and the buttons in odd places, see the 'gape' below the vest , mine does that too even though its the right size for me.

 

Yeah you're probably right there, now I think of it the coveralls have slit pockets at the waist not the patch pockets shown and the cuffs don't look like coveralls either. Wasn't expecting to see a 60 Pattern smock with a SUIT sight, first time I remember the latter was when the Queens Regt, right at the end of their tour IIRC, used them (apparently to good effect) in a big gun battle with PIRA in the New Lodge Rd area in Feb 1973 which left 6 civvies dead amidst the usual allegations, anyway musn't stray into that sort of controversy here, point is by that time the DPM era was well established. Just shows that 60 Pattern smocks didn't all just disappear from use overnight.

 

Re the jungle boots, gosh they are positively fluourescent! Osprey Men-at-Arms 431 "Britain's Secret War- the Indonesian Confrontation 1962-66" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Secret-War-Confrontation-Men-at-arms/dp/184603048X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276729443&sr=8-1 has some superb colour plates (look like colourised contemporary photos) which show these boots quite well but the colour is much more faded! Includes a partial rendering of the same Ghurka but ifdentified in the osprey caption as 1st Bn, 10 (not 6) Ghurka Rifles.

[Gadge]

Yeah i've got that book its a good one.

 

Better pic of the jungle boots and a discussion on them here:

 

http://www.alliedforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3020