The General Posted June 5, 2010 Report Share Posted June 5, 2010 Who was in power for the knee jerk reaction to Hungerford and Dunblane? Touché Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted June 5, 2010 Report Share Posted June 5, 2010 Lets face it, kneejerk laws are designed to get and consolidate votes. They have nothing to do with safety. If it was safety people were concerned about, everyone would be armed. Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted June 5, 2010 Report Share Posted June 5, 2010 At the risk of a massive assumption, I would not be surprised in the slightest if there was a pretty large correlation between those that vote tory, and those that own shotguns, I'm not sure the conservatives in govt would want to tread on thier toes. Having said that I own a shotgun and a rifle and I'm not a tory voter, so there you go Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 Thing is if guns were completely banned in the UK people would still find other ways of killing each other, I highly doubt there will ever be a ban on knives and cars, both if used improperly can be a rather effective weapon. To parallel this, I wish to quote from an episode of The Simpsons where Marge tenuously links Homer getting hit by Maggie to the violent cartoon Itchy & Scratchy: Kent: Hello, I'm Kent Brockman, and welcome to another edition of `Smartline'.Are cartoons too violent for children? Most people would say, ``No, of course not, what kind of stupid question is that?'' [His guests are Marge, Roger Meyers (CEO of I&S, Intl), and Krusty (``Hi, kids!''), and...] Kent: Joining us live, via satellite from Vienna, home of Sigmund Freud, the world's greatest psychiatrist, to give us an insight into the human mind, Dr. Marvin Monroe. [After a brief clip of I&S, the debate begins...] Meyers: I did a little research and I discovered a startling thing... There was violence in the past, long before cartoons were invented. Kent: I see. Fascinating. Meyers: Yeah, and know something, Karl? The Crusades, for instance. Tremendous violence, many people killed, the darned thing went on for thirty years. Kent: And this was before cartoons were invented? Meyers: That's right, Kent. Simply replace "cartoons" with "guns" and you have the whole "criminals use guns so guns should be banned" debate summed up. Blaming anything other than the person concerned for their criminal actions is foolish beyond belief and only furthers the avoidance of responsibility that seems to be seeping into every aspect of our lives; whether it's morons who "were given the wrong type of ladder" while putting up a fire alarm, but climbed it anyway, alone, and were surprised to fall down or criminals blaming "society" or "poverty" or "drugs" or anything other than themselves for their crimes. If there were no guns, crimes like the recent one in Cumbria may have been averted. Or they MAY have happened anyway, with the victims stabbed, slashed, bludgeoned, poisoned or whatever by knives, swords, spears, clubs, rocks, chairs or whatever. There are *always* weapons.... You can't ban every object that has the potential for misuse. To try is insane. To ban *any* object from legal and safe use simply out of fear of criminal misuse is wrong. But we all know this. Good luck trying to convince people like MAG, though. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_marksman Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 This is probably a stupid question (especially since I study politcis, especially gun/anti gun campaign like Snowdrop) but who is MAG? I'm assuming some sort of incredibly anti-gun lobbiest group. And, unless my education is wrong, Labour created the legislation after Dunblane, in '97. Did anyone see the BBC's "Big question" this morning? I don't usually watch it, as it seems that they always get the most vocal, extreme (and sometimes idiot) people to turn up on it, and always ignore the people with sense/expert knowledge. This morning was no different. One gets the feeling that the various cuts in transmission were very 'convenient' since most of them happened when the pro-gun or firearms experts were speaking. One of the comments by (I think) 'Lucy' was that farmers don't need guns - poisons, gas, dogs (oops!) etc can kill vermin. Well, having relatives and friends in the farming industry I can say - thats rubbish. Some, have dangers. Like, releasing very large clouds of a killer gas into the air, or something that can contaminate livestock/plants.... And, again, suggestions on how to solve gun problems came up. Including the wonderful idea mentioned a few posts back, about having a huge public database listing who have guns, and where... Link to post Share on other sites
Cyber Soldier Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 http://www.momsagainstguns.org/ Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 http://www.momsagainstguns.org/ I would have thought THIS would be more relavent in a UK context. Link to post Share on other sites
Cyber Soldier Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 My google fu is weak. I did see that but it seems a little old. Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 I thought MAG had all but packed up after their founding member got stabbed to death by her son? Link to post Share on other sites
Chimpy Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 This is probably a stupid question (especially since I study politcis, especially gun/anti gun campaign like Snowdrop) but who is MAG? I'm assuming some sort of incredibly anti-gun lobbiest group. And, unless my education is wrong, Labour created the legislation after Dunblane, in '97. Labour created more legislation, the Tories only banned some handguns after Dunblane. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_marksman Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 Labour created more legislation, the Tories only banned some handguns after Dunblane. Ah, right. My books (and teachers) only said Labour made the (Dunblane) legislation, after they promised it in their manifesto/conference of late '96/early '97. I seemed to be the only person in the politics department who'd heard of Hungerford, even thought I'm 18, and the youngest of the staff is 33... @spetsnazdave87 - I know that a similar mothers against weapons in the UK ended when the founder left after her son and nephew got stabbed. (But I think they've reformed) Link to post Share on other sites
Chimpy Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 Ah, right. My books (and teachers) only said Labour made the (Dunblane) legislation, after they promised it in their manifesto/conference of late '96/early '97. I seemed to be the only person in the politics department who'd heard of Hungerford, even thought I'm 18, and the youngest of the staff is 33... That's a bit worrying and completely ahistorical. This is the first reference I came across: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/16/newsid_3110000/3110949.stm Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 I don't about everyone else, but I tend to use MAG (Mothers Against Guns) as a "catch-all" term for completely misguided and overzealous groups seeking to criminalise guns and gun owners instead of directing their justifable outrage at having friends/relatives/whatever murdered towards getting more money for the police, or tougher sentences for murderers, or something that might actually be useful... Link to post Share on other sites
spetsnazdave87 Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 @spetsnazdave87 - I know that a similar mothers against weapons in the UK ended when the founder left after her son and nephew got stabbed. (But I think they've reformed) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7430668.stm Very sad but by her logic we should be banning kitchen knives, rubber knives, trowels and all sorts... Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 Various kinds of knives and other edged weapons have been banned, and others restricted, for no useful purpose. It's now illegal to sell swords, amongst other things. This is relevant to me because my housemate had only recently acquired rather a lot of swords of varying quality with the intention to sell them on, then the law changed and now I'm stuck with a house cluttered with cheap swords. This is mildly annoying. Link to post Share on other sites
L4byr1nth Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 There's a delicious irony somewhere in there. Campaign all your adult life against guns, then get killed by a blade. Ben. Link to post Share on other sites
Triggerhappychappy Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 What makes it all the more amusing ( we really shouldnt laugh, but, let do ) is that her son was in a loony bin, and she insisted on taking him home to look after him; he was in a loony bin for a reason dopey woman, he heard voices in his head telling him to kill her.... never mind though. The ban on swords though only extends so far as cheap nasty ebay-type items; hand forged swords are still perfectly legal to buy and sell- see notice here: http://www.blades-uk.com/ As stated, even if all guns & knives ( other than kitchen ) were banned all these tragedies would have been carried out, and the victims woudl argueably suffered much more since all thats available to a determined murderer/ loony are kitchen knives, baseball & cricket bats, golf clubs, scissors, rolling pins & screwdrivers; all pretty ordinary items found in many homes. Banning things only hurts law abiding folk as criminals dont obey the law- something lost on politicians and housewives... Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I had this discussion with my housemate the other day. If we ban objects that could potentially be used in crimes - we have to ban *everything* Afterall, criminals wear clothes. They eat food. Food could be poisoned as part of a murder. Any solid object can be used as a weapon. Cars - well, they're so obviously dangerous, not to mention criminals use them to transport themselves to and from crimes. Etc, etc, etc.. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 To return more directly to the topic, I see the media seems to be making something of a fuss because a couple of undercover cops in a car seem to have seen the guy while he was engaged in his killing spree. Actually, the story has now changed slightly to include a beat-bobby who also saw the guy and gave chase in a comandeered taxi. Not too sure what actually happened. Obviously the media is trying to suggest that the rozzers could have ended the situation sooner. Also, at the risk of being pedantic, I wish the media would stop referring to the guy as a "serial killer". Link to post Share on other sites
Smitty619 Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I don't about everyone else, but I tend to use MAG (Mothers Against Guns) as a "catch-all" term for completely misguided and overzealous groups seeking to criminalise guns and gun owners instead of directing their justifable outrage at having friends/relatives/whatever murdered towards getting more money for the police, or tougher sentences for murderers, or something that might actually be useful... Well said, and its a point that escapes most. Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 Serial killer? How do they figure that one out? I also like the term "mass murder" which seems to now include someone who shoots more than 1 person, putting them in the same category as Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler... Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 There's a delicious irony somewhere in there. Campaign all your adult life against guns, then get killed by a blade. Ben. I'm in stitches Link to post Share on other sites
Hedganian Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 Well, I am. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 On the BBC website there is a news story with video regarding a police van with three offices in it, following the shooter. I think this is another case of people wanting someone/thing to blame for these killings. The sad thing is, once the ball of blame starts to roll, it just seems to keep getting bigger (With the blame becoming even more wild, the further it goes). Link to post Share on other sites
Misfit Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 Well, I am. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Yeah, all those African dictators starving their citizens are small-time compared to one old woman. If anyone else wishes to post tripe of this nature in a thread about such a serious matter please don't bother. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.