Propane! Filling direct from a 13kg tank

[hitmanNo2]

I can't remember where I saw it but I've seen one of those big propane tanks in a metal frame hooked upside down onto the rear ladder of a Defender.  Seemed to work nicely.

[ejovrh]

I can't remember where I saw it but I've seen one of those big propane tanks in a metal frame hooked upside down onto the rear ladder of a Defender.  Seemed to work nicely.

 

close.

 

i use one of these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kleinstflasche-Propan-425-g-Umfuellstutzen-Dachdecker-Handwerkerflasche-Loeten-/281760019384

 

steel bottle, designed to be refilled.

it has a special valve via which one transfers the liquid up to a certain ammount (the thing with volumetric vs. gravimetric filling).

with the coleman bottles you cant do that - you can overfill them, which can be dangerous.

 

as an adapter you can use these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Umfuellstutzen-Propan-Kleinstflasche-Handwerkerflasche-Kleinflasche-aus-5kg-o11kg-/272045656437

 

or, look at www.gasfachfrau.eu - there you have tons of adapters.

 

all in all, you spend a certain ammount of money for being able to refill from a 13kg propane tank.

if you have a Heavy Player and go through one greengas bottle a week it may be worth it.

im not a Heavy Player but for me the convenience of not driving to the other part of the city was worth it.

[bankz5152]

Thanks. Never fill for more than 60 seconds and your fine, i wont fill for more than 50 seconds to be safe.

 

Thanks for the suggestion but I'd rather get the filling direct from a 13kg tank operational.

 

on my phone, my spelling will suck

[bankz5152]

So while looking into a method to overcome the potential gas pissing out of the nozzle when the tank is on issue I found this -

 

 

Once I find one available to buy in the UK, the idea would be to fit that, or similar, in line behind the nozzle. Tank on and press button to fill mags. Sounds like it should work? Obviously providing you are below the tank

 

If anyone knows where I can get one I would be very grateful! 

[Wingmann]

That could work nicely with a nozzle attached solidly to it and some flexible hose.

For field carry you can always use one or more gas grenades. I have the VFC WP grenade and it's never leaked, while it carries a decent amount of gas.

[bankz5152]

Exciting lol

 

I've only ever played one game where I have needed to carry gas in game and that was down to utterly ridiculous rules, either way I'll never play with said company again. If I do need to carry gas Ill take one of the Coleman bottles with me, I will still keep all my bottles and refill them as needed. Doing this will just allow them to last longer. 

 

Thanks

[you can`t shoot me]

I thought about the same idea a while back and decided to slice a empty propane can in half and attach a hose to the internal valve of the propane can.  A 6mm air line is a nice tight fit and i hoped i could use a jubalee clip to tighten the hose to the inside valve but unfortunately i could never get it to withstand the pressure and the hose just blew off.  I looked for a good while assuming there must be some form of hose or adaptor available that would do the job but eventually gave up so if you find a workable solution please post it up.

[bankz5152]

Will do. So far this is what I have -

 

11kg tank (I realised propane is 11kg, Butane is 13kg) either hanging off my rear door or in the load space upside down of course.

 

Connected this to the 11kg tank - (sourced from ebay US)

 

Fit this inline between the Coleman end and the pipe - (sourced from ebay US)

 

Using these, and a jubilee clip for extra security ((sourced from ebay UK)

 

Then finally the AI Propane Adaptor fitted on the end for mag filling. Turn the main valve on the 11kg tank on which will start the flow of liquid propane (hopefully), depress the button and the liquid should flow. Hold correctly and gas mags. 

 

I think I have addressed all the potential issues people have come up with, I may reduce the length of the line to reduce wastage and decrease the distance the liquid must travel. 

If all goes to plan it should give at least 10kg worth of Propane for £27 which is the equivalent of approx 22 Coleman tanks (~£220) or approx 33 Green Gas cans (~£330). Pretty huge savings. 

 

Total costs would be

Propane - £27.00

Coleman Line Adaptor - £30.50

Button Valve - £10.00

Valve Fittings - £2.50

 

Total £70.00 saving £150 over Coleman bottles or £245 over Green Gas cans (inc price of the AI adaptor) plus the added benefit of not running out, if there ends up only being 1kg - 2kg or so left before I game I'd try and refill some Colemans then swap the tank. 

 

Also just to add this will be shared between 4 people on our team, 2 of which play regularly together so savings are even higher. 

[Got Wood?]

Small point, how will you hold the mag, push the adapter in, and press the valve button on the hose, all at the same time?

[bankz5152]

The button will be just above the fill nozzle which is the only thing that needs pressing. As mentioned before the AI adapter has no valve.

 

on my phone, my spelling will suck

[renegadecow]

Didn't realize green gas was so expensive there. I get them for about $7 a can but if I get them wholesale, around $240 a box of 48 cans. It's propane which has gone up here as the conventional LPG used for stoves is butane.

[Korppi]

Our club owns a similar sized propane tank (not too dissimilar to this but more open err protective hood http://www.karavaanarit.fi/@Bin/84970529/AGAn%20alumiinipullo2.gif) with a nozzle adapter at the valve output.

 

Use is simple; the bottle is placed on a table upside down and the valve opened. Mags are purged by letting a bit of gas flow thru by pressing the mag valve and then filled normally.

[machgo]

Bankz. are you, or were you, purging the small bottle while you were filling from the big bottle?  I find it hard to believe that their is some kind of mechanical counter or mechanism inside that disallows refilling after a certain point.

 

I watched a youtube video of a guy showing how to refill the small bottles, and he made mention of using the purge valve on the small bottle to make more room for liquid from the big bottle.  I've noticed a similar effect in magazines when there is too much gas inside to be displaced by liquid.

[ED-SKaR]

Bankz. are you, or were you, purging the small bottle while you were filling from the big bottle?  I find it hard to believe that their is some kind of mechanical counter or mechanism inside that disallows refilling after a certain point.

 

I watched a youtube video of a guy showing how to refill the small bottles, and he made mention of using the purge valve on the small bottle to make more room for liquid from the big bottle.  I've noticed a similar effect in magazines when there is too much gas inside to be displaced by liquid.

"Too much gas inside to be displaced by liquid"

 

The gas compresses into liquid when you fill it. Non issue.

[machgo]

The gas already inside the cylinder compresses into a liquid under the pressure of the incoming liquid?  Somehow I don't think so.

[ED-SKaR]

The gas already inside the cylinder compresses into a liquid under the pressure of the incoming liquid?  Somehow I don't think so.

Science!

 

Propane exists at a gas under a certain pressure, above that pressure it condenses into a liquid. That's how airsoft guns work with gas, because the gas feeds out, lowering the pressure in the mag, then liquid propane evaporates to restore the pressure.

 

(of course as temperature changes, the pressure limit changes a too, hence cooldown.)

[machgo]

You will not get all the residual gas in a cylinder to liquify by adding new liquid into the cylinder.  Give this a read:

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-completely-refill-a-1lb-disposable-propan/step5/null/

 

Make special note of the page where the fellow demonstrates how venting the small cylinder allows more liquid propane in.  If what you were saying was true, venting wouldn't be necessary--the gas would be liquified under the pressure of the incoming liquid.  But that doesn't happen, at least not completely.  Propane liquifies at 177 psi.

 

Apparently you believe there is some mechanism inside a propane bottle which disallows it from being refilled repeatedly.  I would really like to see that.

[renegadecow]

Venting is done to purge gases that aren't propane like regular air or nitrogen. It compresses at a much higher pressure so will eat up valuable space in the receiving vessel. If gaseous propane can't be compressed back into liquid from the filling can then we'll all have one-time use magazines unless purged with a vacuum.

[bankz5152]

Each 465g tank is vented 100% then chilled at -18c for 10 minutes while the 11kg tank is at room temp. Making for optimum refilling.

 

If you look at Coleman bottles it says "do not refill, federal crime in US"

 

While I cannot be 100% certaim there is no valve its safe to assume Coleman would fit one so you can refill and have to by more tanks.

 

Once the valve "trips" i suppose I can get some gas in but no liquid making it useless for airsoft. The 11kg tank also has a valve inside which will not let you use 100% of the propane inside as the bottle isnt designed to be used upside down.

 

So I believe there is a similar system inside the 465g/Coleman bottles as even brand new ones you cant use 100% of the liquid. Once theres around 20% liquid left it doesnt transfer properly to the magazines.

 

on my phone, my spelling will suck

[renegadecow]

Have you tried ripping one of them apart just to find out if there really is a valve which shuts it down?

[Rob15]

I doubt it's a valve that knows it's being refilled, I've not got an empty cylinder to look at but the valves in them look like they're standard schrader valves, looking from the top the valve tools I have for them should fit. In my experience they're not exactly that durable and if that's what is in the cylinders my bets would be on the gas transfer in and out if you're refilling and the cooling action of it is degrading the valve seals, in which case you could just buy spares and replace them periodically but until someone does pull one apart we won't know.

[machgo]

Venting is done to purge gases that aren't propane like regular air or nitrogen. It compresses at a much higher pressure so will eat up valuable space in the receiving vessel. If gaseous propane can't be compressed back into liquid from the filling can then we'll all have one-time use magazines unless purged with a vacuum.

 

How do you supppose air, or nitrogen, would get into one of these cylinders?  At what point is the psi inside less than atmospheric?  Or is there some inside from the factory?

[renegadecow]

With magazines it's usually when opening them up or leaving the main valve open long after being empty. With cannisters, I'm guessing it's from cumulative use. Every time you mate the valves together in filling other vessels, there's a small amount of air trapped between the two valves and that has to go somewhere. My guess is it has to go up being less dense which means up into the can.

[Apex]

Robs right, the blow off valve thats on the colmans is poorly designed and overtime it will leak from it a lot.

The coleman tanks are designed to try and stop you refilling them (iirc theres something inside them to try and stop you), the only way i found i could get useful charge into mine was if i chilled the coleman can down and warmed the propane cylinder up to room temp; problem is after awhile the seals go on the colemans and it becomes pointless to a degree.

[sir naggedalot]

Here's a few pic's

 

Fill valve right from centre of Coleman  and standard Tyre Shrader Valve on the left

 

Coleman pressure relief valve

 

Coleman Tank top. Notice how the valve housing isn't flush hence you will never get all the liquid out while its inverted. Also notice the rust!

 

I'd not consider refilling without the use of scales as overfilling could end in a catastrophic failure!

 

Remember Safety Third !