The evolution of arguments against clones

[GuzziHero]

Precisely, Noxman.

 

I have an even number of clones to high-end so I can argue both points. Some clones are fab - my AGM M14 and Galaxy G5 cover that base, and some really ought to be left in the box - the DBoys SPR. For the gun Ive just ordered, Ive chosen another CA even though there is an almost identical clone out there. Because I want to treasure it. I didnt really want an M14 (dont like them) or an MP5K...so the clones were great options.

 

I do sense a bit of sour grapes from some of the clone boycotting high-end gun owners but in most cases I do think that they are just suspicious of something that costs so much less for what appears to be the same thing. But when I open a CA and a clone at the same time, the quality of the castings, wiring and so on shows why I paid more for one than the other.

 

On the other hand, I do also feel there is some from clone owners, trying to find some sort of comfort blanket in the fact that they have sorta 'out-scored' those who own high end guns.

 

At the end of the day, its each to their own...and I think we're all lucky that we are in a sort of golden age of airsoft where there IS so much choice. Even if that choice usually boils down to the 10,000 flavours of Armalites

[user7]

gbbs seem to simplify the argument much easier than aegs, since there are more critical moving parts. in a gbb clone there is a difference between it and the original and no one debates which is better (for the most part). aeg users always give me a sense that as long as a gun works its great. this is especially true with clone owners, many of whom have purchased clones as their first gun and thus don't really have a valid opinion of what constitutes as a good aeg. I once read a review of a Well clone (g3 sas- i dont know Wells designation for it) and the reviewer stated that the plastics look kinda poor but from 10 feet away no one will notice. Even with the poor web-cam quality pics i could see the body as being manure.

 

a disadvantage with clones is that there are so many brands and re-brands that its hare to keep track of which is good. It wouldn't surprise me that one plant churns out the same gun for 3 different companies. Each individual co. seems to be going for a cash grab without caring about their product or consumers. this is also linked to pedigree and the points the original poster was making (wrongly so). If companies like JG want reputation they have to stick with it and continue manufacturing while biulding capital for innovation. Think back to ICS and CA; far from the best when they start, but now leaders in the market. I haven't heard much from scr, and i haven't heard OF boyi, dboy, agm a&k..etc until this year.

 

the firearms analogy seems to be missing a critical manufacturer; Norinco. of all the makers listed, they are all American companies. airsoft has had similar situations (think mgc > WA, tanio koba..) but again that was within a country. Norinco copies cz 75, p226, and 1911; and sells them at a half of what it would cost it get a real sig p226. people buy them, use them and generally are happy with them. but no one says norico copies are better than the original because they know where the money is saved.

 

 

 

Im fine with clones, i just wish people would stop making a big deal about them.

[ruchik]

Great example.

 

So, If some chinese company started making knock-offs of Les Baer specials and selling them for $400, how do you think that'd make owners of original Les Baer guns feel?

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Well, again, if it were me, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. I know my gun is the real deal, not a copy, and I have a quality piece. I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I rest assured knowing that when the time comes to use it, mine is a lot less likely to fail at a critical moment, and that's good enough for me. Sure, the owners of the real guns would be annoyed, but in the end, I would imagine they would be happier knowing they have the real deal.

[SNOGER]

Well, again, if it were me, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. I know my gun is the real deal, not a copy, and I have a quality piece. I don't have to prove anything to anyone. I rest assured knowing that when the time comes to use it, mine is a lot less likely to fail at a critical moment, and that's good enough for me. Sure, the owners of the real guns would be annoyed, but in the end, I would imagine they would be happier knowing they have the real deal.

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I would pay the extra money for quality any day.

[ruchik]

^agreed.

[freq88]

Is Stage 4 on nitpicking and lead so far fetched when a lot of chinese knockoffs are being banned and or recalled for unsafe levels of mercury and lead in them?

[Pinkfloyd]

WARNING: You may be offended. In which case, go have intercourse with yourself. I'm not here to make you laugh, I'm here to open your eyes to a little something called Chinese good dumpig....

 

I just won't buy anything from China now-a-days simply on principal- The Chinese government is evil, communist and wants to hurt America. They are not simply content to drive our industry (as well as the rest of the free world's) under, but I think there is sufficient evidence to support my claims that China's government does indeed want to hurt our citizens.

 

They ship tainted pet food to American and Canadian canneries, or have it canned tainted in China, they ship tainted wheat gluten (which, by the way, they provide approx. 80% of the world's supply) to American groceries and packaging companies, and now lead paint in childrens toys. I would call it neglagence on one seperate and isolated occasion. However, I would not at all be surprised if this was purposeful. Let's be real here: the world is not the happy-go-lucky place that alot of people think it is. Nation's go to war, people murder, and the Chinese most definitly want to hurt you. Those are the facts.

 

Note: I'm not arguing against the Chinese people, I'm arguing against their government and their economics practices, which are nothing short of evil. I'm personally all for free market economics, which is what some of you may try to argue, but people, look at the facts. This may be straight capitalism, but at some point we have to say enough. The Chinese are dumping cheap, low quality goods into our economies so that they can drive our domestic buissiness' out of the market. You have to ask yourself: "What is the REAL cost of buying a chinese clone?"

 

The REAL cost is that you sacrafice quality and relyability, and you also help them hurt your economies. And by helping them hurt your economies, you help them hurt you. You surrender your country's leverage on the global market to help stop China's cheap product dumping. If we follow this path to its eventual end and let China dump poor quality goods into our economies and if we buy our products simply for a good deal (if we tolerate poor quality and don't DEMAND higher quality) we will end up loosing what makes our countrys great. This would seem like a paranoid and far-fetch prediction, but as far as I'm concerned, it could be the first time a country BUYs another one.

 

I know, I seem crazy, and you'll all quote me and call me mad and ridiculous, but this is how real economics works. This is the world, like it or not, and I simply won't let China dictate the terms of global trade buy cloning our products that we spent so much time developing and letting the undersell good reputable companies. All I'm, saying, in short, is that I won't buy Chinese goods regardless of make (airsoft, food, toys, whatever) because they A. want to hurt our economies and B. want to hurt our people. Those are the only two conclusions you can draw.

[Cpt]

USA!USA!

 

 

And surely the American government has nothing but the best in mind for the whole world

[Forze]

The only hole in your theory is that most high end manufacturers have their production in China too.

[Pinkfloyd]

The only hole in your theory is that most high end manufacturers have their production in China too.

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Hong Kong, and I own no GnP's or CA guns. Am I missing any other high-end ones made in China

 

Edited for poor HTML

[Stealthbomber]

I just won't buy anything from China now-a-days simply on principal- The Chinese government is evil, communist and wants to hurt America.  They are not simply content to drive our industry (as well as the rest of the free world's) under, but I think there is sufficient evidence to support my claims that China's government does indeed want to hurt our citizens.

I don't think they want to hurt anybody.

It's much worse than that. It's that they simply don't care if they hurt anybody or not.

 

Note: I'm not arguing against the Chinese people, I'm arguing against their government and their economics practices, which are nothing short of evil.  I'm personally all for free market economics, which is what some of you may try to argue, but people, look at the facts.  This may be straight capitalism, but at some point we have to say enough.

I'll happily argue against the chinese people until the internet gets full up.

 

After spending several months over there I found everybody I met, from ministers and government officials to private businessmen and civilians, to be greedy, selfish, lazy, corrupt and incompetent.

 

The problem DOES stem from the government. The people are used to being ruled despotically and, in turn, they've adopted a couldn't-care-less attitude to their work and their lives.

Can you really believe that, a year after it was released, the Well L96 is STILL being assembled at factories with the spring for the empty-indicator upside down???

I'm sure that somebody on the production line has realised it should go the other way up but they get paid the same whether they do the job right or not so who cares, right?

 

Incidentally, the chinese, despite waving a communist flag, are one of the most single-mindedly capitalist people you will EVER meet. That's why they don't buy into environmental treaties or anything related to working conditions.

That's why they're prepared to do almost anything in search of the all-powerful dollar bill.

[Pinkfloyd]

USA!USA!

And surely the American government has nothing but the best in mind for the whole world

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Dude, you are very short sighted arn't you? You're from a small East European country, which, pardon me, has in the scale of things very little economic leverage. I'm not dissing your country, meerly saying we're on common ground here. If China can dump goods and put American buissinesses, which are very well established out of buissiness, what chance to you think smaller economies have?

 

Whether or not you hate America, love it or what, your economy is in danger because of China's economics. Your hating America only makes them stronger, because if Europe and the EU isn't willing to make a stand against China, there''l be nothing to stop China from destroying your governments and economies.

 

America may be decently off, but as a small country you guys need all the help you can get. It's time to stop hating America and look to your own preservation.

 

 

 

 

 

That said, I agree completly, the Chinese government is even scarrier because they simply don't care about people.

[Pablo]

I think we're safely into stage 5 now. Just be careful not to tar an entire national population by the same brush - that goes for comments about any nation.

[dookieboy]

PinkFloyd, just to let you aware. A good 90% of things are made in China. I'm sure you have boughten them. But IMO I don't think if you buy something from China your supporting communism. The A lot of people on this forum support communism...My opinion.

[JColt]

#5 Chuck Norris uses TM and dislikes Clones.

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So sigged

[Cpt]

Dude, you are very short sighted arn't you?  You're from a small East European country, which, pardon me, has in the scale of things very little economic leverage.  I'm not dissing your country, meerly saying we're on common ground here.  If China can dump goods and put American buissinesses, which are very well established out of buissiness, what chance to you think smaller economies have?

 

Whether or not you hate America, love it or what, your economy is in danger because of China's economics.  Your hating America only makes them stronger, because if Europe and the EU isn't willing to make a stand against China, there''l be nothing to stop China from destroying your governments and economies. 

 

America may be decently off, but as a small country you guys need all the help you can get.  It's time to stop hating America and look to your own preservation.

That said, I agree completly, the Chinese government is even scarrier because they simply don't care about people.

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East Europe? You're talking about Sweden right? I never knew that I lived in the east (I should stop here as you don't even know basic geography)

 

Considering that Sweden's economy has never been better! You're arguments that China will overflow the global economy and in the end conquer and destroy the world, are unsupported and it is all in your head.

[w733commando]

East Europe? You're talking about Sweden right? I never knew that I lived in the east (I should stop here as you don't even know basic geography)

 

Considering that Sweden's economy has never been better! You're arguments that China will overflow the global economy and in the end conquer and destroy the world, are unsupported and it is all in your head.

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So true, some people really do need to re-evaluate their opinions, and not to jump to conclusions.

[Pinkfloyd]

PinkFloyd, just to let you aware. A good 90% of things are made in China. I'm sure you have boughten them. But IMO I don't think if you buy something from China your supporting communism. The  A lot of people on this forum support communism...My opinion.

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I have bought things made from China before, but I no longer do as of July 12th this year. It's expensive but worth it.

 

Also, I never said anything about Communism. I said that China has an evil government and economy that is out to ruin Western economys.

 

Aslo, I believe Sweden is Eastern European, is it not? For our purposes of discussion, Germany and East is Eastern European.

 

Even if Sweden's economy has never been better, it would still be wise for any small nation to take heed economically. You are part of the EU, which protects you in large part from China's good dumping, but the economys of smaller unprotected countrys are very vunerable.

 

 

I agree with the Mods here, this is shaky ground, and let's all try to tread with caution on this subject.

[Sgtwiltan]

Sledge, if TM really cared they would do something to effectively combat the clone price point. You know what? They don't care. The people that are buying clones are the ones that never where going to buy a TM anyways. And if a company is that dead set that they are not going to adjust to a new market then they deserve to go under, that is the way economics works.

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I have half a dozen TMs a CA and an ICS that says you're wrong on one part of your retort. I have close to 3 dozen clones though. The pricing of CAs have gone down in the US due to the economic pressure the clones are giving them. TM does not care about the US market but ever wonder why they are now emphasizing their toy trains.

[ruchik]

I wouldn't say that they are out to ruin anyone's economy. I believe they are simply trying to make money the best and most efficient way they can, by driving out competitors. Isn't that really the goal of any business, or indeed economy? To be better than your neighbors'? And there will ALWAYS be a demand for higher quality. Because in a capitalist society, if you have the money, that demand and ability to buy higher quality will never go away. If you think about it, whose fault was it for outsourcing to China? The US businesses, looking to make more money, wanted cheaper labor. So they went to China. You argue that the Chinese are evil and want to take over the world through business practices, but US businesses put them in a position to do so.

As far as the Chinese wanting to hurt our people-the US wasn't exactly the kindest nation to other ethnicities when the almighty dollar was at stake. Neither was Britain. Take for example, the opium wars. Britain forced the Chinese to allow the trade of opium that literally filled the entire country with addicts. I would say that what they did was exactly the same as what you are saying China is doing to us. The US wasn't very nice to the Indians either, right? I'm not saying your opinion is completely wrong or anything, to each his own, but I am saying that no one really has the right to be calling someone else a greedy, power-hungry nation/nationality when they come from one themselves.

 

*edit: And as far as real economics goes, this is something that businesses face all the time. Someone comes out with a similar product for cheaper, the other business has to come up with a solution to counter it. Instead of sitting around and whining over what already happened, businesses have to come up with a better solution. That's just how economics works. Does your opinion also extend to the Japanese? They came out with Honda and all those other cars. Fact of the matter is, they appealed to the US customer more than domestic manufacturers, and now the domestics are coming up with solutions to try and get back some of the market share. Fine, they may not be like the Chinese in that Japanese products are usually excellent quality. If the Chinese made excellent clones, would your opinion change? As you said, that's business. You don't get very far in the business world by trying to be nice to competitors. You make a product that blows the competition away, either in quality or price. That's the mindset one needs in business, and fortunately or unfortunately, the Chinese are doing rather well.

[Noxman]

Just to say, ever since the textiles wars in the nineties with China, trade has been largely open to the EU. Also many chinese (or american owned chinese based companies of which the large majority of well known companies in china are) have built factories within the EU to avoid and trade restrictions that may be imparted at any particular time.

Just because we have grouped together for economic benefit does not make us sheltered from the effects of the exports from countries like China.

[Pinkfloyd]

If you think about it, whose fault was it for outsourcing to China? The US businesses, looking to make more money, wanted cheaper labor. So they went to China.

 

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Actaully, the majority of American oursourcing is in India, Mexico, Canada, Taiwan and Japan. Most companies in China are Chinese owned and operated.

[ruchik]

My mistake. Maybe not outsourcing, but the fact of the matter is a lot of products produced by US companies are made in China, Taiwan, or Japan.

[Maldekai]

Considering that Sweden's economy has never been better! You're arguments that China will overflow the global economy and in the end conquer and destroy the world, are unsupported and it is all in your head.

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China will destroy the world, but not because it wants to! They keep making crappy, dangerous, tainted things because THERE IS A MARKET FOR IT. America IS the consumer country and will consume as long as the price is right. (and judging by the price of gasoline/petrol, the price doesn't necessarily have to be right) Most people can live happily by being ignorant of the world around them and could care less whether or not the airsoft gun or dog food they buy is tainted, as long as its cheap and available. Most of Arnie's users are educated, well informed people, but by definition, a consumer is most fit for the job when he/she is ignorant and greedy, so they will buy cheap, poor quality goods over more expensive and presumably higher quality domestic or import goods.

 

Hehe, I laughed when I heard Eastern European, too. NORDIC, SILLY...

[BP-anon]

OK, new question. What defines a clone? From what I can tell, it's a copy of a well known brandr by a company that hasn't innovated in the past. Says nothing of where it's from, what it is, or (to an extent) the quality.

 

Where would something like the KWA g36c fit in? Not a "known" brand for AEGs, and the only innovations are internal.