Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[Zakamaru]

It would be the M14 hands down. Just look for guns with long barrels. Most of the full sized guns like the M16, G3SG1, M14, G36 (Full sized) are really accurate and ranged.

[Xaccers]

Sorry, I forgot I'm dealing with someone intelligent enough to pick apart my posts. I guess the only other way I can compare it is to say that I've not seen a single TM returned due to damage, whereas I've seen a very good portion of the clones come in for some kind of work/refund/exchange, usually the first one.

 

The thing is, you're paying for the extra QC from TM, hence the higher prices.

It's not an issue really here in the UK because if you get a duff gun, the shop is legally bound to replace it, so it will delay having a good gun for a few days at most.

This makes the saving from buying an ACM gun really worth while.

I do "pity the fool" who imports an ACM though, the risk of getting a lemon is too high imho and so there would be the added hassle of sending it back to HK, dealing with customs so you don't get charged duty again, and frankly I can get them the same price near enough in the UK.

The same goes for any manufacturer's guns, I wouldn't import any unless the only place to get it was HK.

 

They do, just that people have no time to repair them. Like I said, the sites we have are run by people who have jobs during the week.

 

Tsk, I had a 9-5:30 job, 5 days a week and still managed to repair guns in the evenings. I have the bruises from my gf to prove it

 

It was the only gun that failed on him. He did the same things to more than two v.3 guns at least twice per gun, and had zero problems.

 

Not suprised, getting a gearbox jam because of a minor misalignment which sorts itself out after releasing spring tension isn't that common, but it does happen, more often in V3 gearboxes than V2 though.

 

Ah, well for UK FPS levels, that's all fine and dandy. But remember, the American mindset is 'the more power, the better.'

 

Well, most ACM fire around 400fps stock, they're downgraded for UK limits. Steel gears are better suited for higher stresses than the stock TM ones for instance.

 

I do, but I'd be really ###### if product A didn't work and ask for product B instead. I would then most likely attempt to sue company A for shoddy quality and false advertisement, but then fail miserably due to company A not being in America.

 

Maybe because the cost of living is so high over here, especially at the moment, and the consumer protection laws, people are more likely to replace duff product A with a working product A and save money, than spend out on product B which still has the risk (albeit smaller) of being duff.

 

Wasn't quoting you that time. Like I've said, you've already given me comparisons (M4-S), and like I've stated, the chance of an A&K M249 costing only $400 here is on par with you saying your Xantia is the absolute worst car ever made and that you'd never be caught behind the wheel of one. At the lowest, an A$K M249 is $700 around these parts. I'd just spend the extra $350 on a gun that I know will be reliable out of the box. That being said though, I'm not a SAW kind of guy.

 

Did I mention my Xantia runs on vegetable oil?

I've heard there's only about £/$90 difference between the A&K and the CA M249's in the US.

 

Kinda glad I noticed this thread in the first place. I've been meaning to have a civil debate to defend TM since the introduction of ACM/JG, I just could never do it without wanting to tell the other party to stuff the insults. Thanks Xaccers.

 

Yeah its been great Viper, thanks for all the insights into airsoft in your area

 

 

PS You smell

 

[greg]

If only all debates could be this civil & informative.

 

I'm all choked up.

 

 

Greg.

 

P.S. Shame about the thread hijack

[gunnermaniac]

Sorry to interupt the argument/disscusion but I have a few questions

 

1.Does anyone know what holster will hold the HFC M712(broomhandle)???

 

2.I am going for a all flecktarn load out, would there be any webbing/vests suitable for me (Remember I am 5ft 2 and not large width wise)

 

3.Would MP40 mags fit in mp5 drop leg pouches.

 

4.Are there any mp40 highcaps.

 

 

If anyone could help I would be very pleased!

Thanks

[Connery]

Tsk, I had a 9-5:30 job, 5 days a week and still managed to repair guns in the evenings. I have the bruises from my gf to prove it

 

Lucky you, usually the people around here are too busy dealing with their children to repair the guns during the evenings.

 

Not suprised, getting a gearbox jam because of a minor misalignment which sorts itself out after releasing spring tension isn't that common, but it does happen, more often in V3 gearboxes than V2 though.

 

But a misalignment causing the trigger unit to fry with only two trigger pulls?

 

Did I mention my Xantia runs on vegetable oil?

 

Once or twice.

 

I've heard there's only about £/$90 difference between the A&K and the CA M249's in the US.

 

Depends on where you live. HERE here (Hawaii), the shipping is expensive due to having being shipped over the Pacific.

 

PS You smell

 

 

3.Would MP40 mags fit in mp5 drop leg pouches.

 

4.Are there any mp40 highcaps.

 

Yes, and yes.

[gunnermaniac]

 

 

Fantastic! Thanks, I have actually decided to go with the ordinary mags, I like the idea of having to change mags in the heat of the battle and also it will teach me to be more conservative with my ammo!

 

Thanks again

[monkey530]

I thought TM's just cost more because of the R&D and QC. And other companies just cost more because of high standards they have and materials they have and R&D to get the replica as accurate as possible. China is cheap because they didn't really have to do R&D as far as I know and just copied stuff and is super cheap since labor prices are low and lots of material. Plus some try to make a quick buck while some put out some decent products. IE JG and CYMA vs. some crappy company like BE or something.

[Bareknuckle]

Fantastic! Thanks, I have actually decided to go with the ordinary mags, I like the idea of having to change mags in the heat of the battle and also it will teach me to be more conservative with my ammo!

 

Thanks again

 

Hey, just a heads-up. Unless you're buying the MP40 for some serious WWII airsofting, I wouldn't get it. It cannot be upgraded with a tightbore or anything because the hop-up unit is glued to the barrel. Lots of other chinese clones have higher internal quality and more upgradeability for the same price.

[Xaccers]

Lucky you, usually the people around here are too busy dealing with their children to repair the guns during the evenings.

 

I leave having kids to other people. Guns, gf and the cat keep me occupied.

 

 

But a misalignment causing the trigger unit to fry with only two trigger pulls?

 

Yes. If the gears can't turn, the current skyrockets and wires (including the contacts) get hot.

The problem with V2 trigger units (on all V2 makes) is that the blade which bridges the contacts doesn't get pushed far enough between the contacts, so you get arcing. This can prevent the trigger contacts from working by too much oxidation, or in worse cases actually vapourise parts of the contacts.

 

Once or twice.

 

It's lovely, loads of power, and I make people hungry as I drive past smelling of a chip shop

 

Depends on where you live. HERE here (Hawaii), the shipping is expensive due to having being shipped over the Pacific.

 

Closer to Japan/HK than we are, but I would imagine they get shipped to the mainland then on to Hawaii right?

Now if only they could air drop them as the plane flies over

[gunnermaniac]

Hey, just a heads-up. Unless you're buying the MP40 for some serious WWII airsofting, I wouldn't get it. It cannot be upgraded with a tightbore or anything because the hop-up unit is glued to the barrel. Lots of other chinese clones have higher internal quality and more upgradeability for the same price.

 

I am not one to upgrade so that is fine....

 

Thanks anyway

 

 

 

Sorry to interupt the argument/disscusion but I have a few questions

 

1.Does anyone know what holster will hold the HFC M712(broomhandle)???

 

I know there is the wooden stock that is also a holster but what I want to know is if it will fit in a normal holster like the one on the milspec duty belt.

 

Thanks

 

[Connery]

Yes. If the gears can't turn, the current skyrockets and wires (including the contacts) get hot.

The problem with V2 trigger units (on all V2 makes) is that the blade which bridges the contacts doesn't get pushed far enough between the contacts, so you get arcing. This can prevent the trigger contacts from working by too much oxidation, or in worse cases actually vapourise parts of the contacts.

 

Wow, I've honestly never heard of it happening before.

 

Closer to Japan/HK than we are, but I would imagine they get shipped to the mainland then on to Hawaii right?

Now if only they could air drop them as the plane flies over

 

Yeah, if only.

[zentaurus]

having read through all 7 pages, most of which, iirc, was about the quality of ACM (clones) and TM, i would have to agree with Pablo and Xaccers. and i believe i should know -- true blue, born and bred ACMer am i.

 

true: expect quality issues with ACM but that's what makes them a joy to tune.

true: TMs used to have higher initial quality but the ACMs are overtaking TM rapidly. and TMs tend to break faster than ACMs when you tune them to the levels we ACMers have done.

true: when you take care of your purchase they last better than a high quality TM that's been abused.

true: you can get an ACM to be exactly your preferred weapon at a much lower cost than doing the same to a TM or another high-end.

 

could be true: chinese manufacturers give US retailers lesser quality products cos they see americans, in general, as people who expect disposables? i do know that we here in the Philippines have not known any ACM batteries that do not fit into their compartments. has china been favoring Europe and Asia?

 

as for data: there used to be a renegade recon site which conducted range and accuracy tests. lost the link but it can still be found through wayback machine, i think. does not include the current crop like the cyma M14 and the 035, though.

 

from experience and personal testing, the p90 outranges and outshoots M4s and is on par with full barreled AKs. haven't tested the HKs and the ARs but i am impressed with the stock accuracy of the current crop of cymas. my view is that the construction -- rigid front end like the F2k and the AUG -- contributes to the stability of the inner barrel and the barrel/hopup/nozzle interfacing.

 

and that's the take of a user and a modder, mates. cheers,

 

[alencore]

nice fafi zen.

[Connery]

having read through all 7 pages, most of which, iirc, was about the quality of ACM (clones) and TM, i would have to agree with Pablo and Xaccers. and i believe i should know -- true blue, born and bred ACMer am i.

 

Then how can you even compare them?

 

true: expect quality issues with ACM but that's what makes them a joy to tune.

 

So wait, taking apart something because you have to makes it a joy? *beep*, I wish I had your train of thought, I'd be as happy as if I won a million dollars at the lottery.

 

true: TMs used to have higher initial quality but the ACMs are overtaking TM rapidly. and TMs tend to break faster than ACMs when you tune them to the levels we ACMers have done.

 

How's about out of the box? Compare the ACM with a TM before you tune it, see which one breaks, then come back to the now seemingly dead debate.

 

And if that's the case, then why has my friends' TM M16 outlasted another friends JLS SCAR, which has been fixed TWICE so far?

 

true: when you take care of your purchase they last better than a high quality TM that's been abused.

 

That's two completely different scenarios. If you abuse an ACM, it will break. That being said, so will an out of the box TM, but nowhere near as fast as an out of the box ACM. Put them in the exact same scenarios, then we'll talk more.

 

true: you can get an ACM to be exactly your preferred weapon at a much lower cost than doing the same to a TM or another high-end.

 

Sort of not really. My TM P90 is exactly the way I want it, and it's bone stock. I demolish people using JG M4s, CYMA M14s, etc. I'd love to see an ACM gun do that.

 

i do know that we here in the Philippines have not known any ACM batteries that do not fit into their compartments.

 

Then work with a JG M4-S and tell me that.

 

Come back when the conditions of both tests are identical.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

Even if TMs last really well out of the box, it's irrelevant.

They are shooting at such a low FPS that they are uncompetitive (and don't start with the "skill makes up for it", try adding that skill to a longer ranged gun, you have more fun, more kills, etc)

 

Secondly, anyone with the slightest smidgen of engineering ability can open an ACM gearbox and identify which parts need replacing within 30 seconds.

When you consider that many ACMs have metal bodies, the cost to replace the entire gearbox, hop and barrel is still less than the price of buying a metal body for your TM, and will still require either work from you, or more money to have it fitted, and that's not even including the money and work to upgrade a TM to stock ACM FPS.

 

The result of this is that you now have a gun that is more reliable than the TM, as it is entirely aftermarket parts, which are better than TM, and is cheaper, hell, in some cases you could buy a metal bodied ACM and replace the whole gearbox for less than the price of a new TM+battery.

Even if you had to have the parts fitted to the TM it'd still be cheaper to pay someone to fit them to the ACM.

 

So overall TM=Fail

They are just too expensive for what they are, and are trading purely on the brand name, because the competition is turning out better products for less money.

[Connery]

Even if TMs last really well out of the box, it's irrelevant.

They are shooting at such a low FPS that they are uncompetitive (and don't start with the "skill makes up for it", try adding that skill to a longer ranged gun, you have more fun, more kills, etc)

 

 

So it's more fun and more skill to shoot them from a distance than to sneak up on them and ask, "Hey, what're you shooting at?"

 

Secondly, anyone with the slightest smidgen of engineering ability can open an ACM gearbox and identify which parts need replacing within 30 seconds.

When you consider that many ACMs have metal bodies, the cost to replace the entire gearbox, hop and barrel is still less than the price of buying a metal body for your TM, and will still require either work from you, or more money to have it fitted, and that's not even including the money and work to upgrade a TM to stock ACM FPS.

 

Oh, I never realized it was so important to have a metal body on a gun. It must be impossible to break a pot-metal metal body.

 

The result of this is that you now have a gun that is more reliable than the TM, as it is entirely aftermarket parts, which are better than TM, and is cheaper, hell, in some cases you could buy a metal bodied ACM and replace the whole gearbox for less than the price of a new TM+battery.

Even if you had to have the parts fitted to the TM it'd still be cheaper to pay someone to fit them to the ACM.

 

Then just do what a lot of people do: Build one from the ground up. Even CHEAPER. And, going by your argument, a hell of a lot more fun.

 

So overall TM=Fail

They are just too expensive for what they are, and are trading purely on the brand name, because the competition is turning out better products for less money.

 

No, TM = Quality, and ACM = Quantity. Sure, I see more people buying ACM guns, but after a while, they always come back looking for TM. And why? Their ACM broke already. I know a couple of guys, one bought a used TM M4, and one bought a brand new JG M4 CQB. The JG broke, he's looking for a new gun. The used and abused TM M4 is still going strong.

[Xaccers]

 

So it's more fun and more skill to shoot them from a distance than to sneak up on them and ask, "Hey, what're you shooting at?"

 

Hell yeah.

Considering the longer a bb is in flight the more chance it will be deflected, it takes a lot of skill to take wind and obstructions into account to get the kill.

Sure a TM may out range an ICS or CA gun but by the time the bb reaches it's target it's going soooo slow they can easily matrix out the way, I've done it on many occasions.

 

[Connery]

Hell yeah.

Considering the longer a bb is in flight the more chance it will be deflected, it takes a lot of skill to take wind and obstructions into account to get the kill.

Sure a TM may out range an ICS or CA gun but by the time the bb reaches it's target it's going soooo slow they can easily matrix out the way, I've done it on many occasions.

 

Most people I know find it more satisfying to sneak up behind a person. It's probably just because we like to see the expression on peoples faces when they realize, "Maybe we shouldn't have stood still."

[greg]

Most people I know find it more satisfying to sneak up behind a person. It's probably just because we like to see the expression on peoples faces when they realize, "Maybe we shouldn't have stood still."

 

 

Irony alert:

 

Seeing the expressions on their face,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,when behind them.

 

 

Greg.

[Connery]

Right, because obviously a person won't turn around to see who's tapping their shoulder and asking them a question.

[greg]

Right, because obviously a person won't turn around to see who's tapping their shoulder and asking them a question.

 

 

I was only trying (obviously in your case failing) to have a laugh. Go on, smile, it's good for ya!

 

I'm forever saying things about the expressions on peoples faces, & then questioning myself on how I'd know if they were looking the other way or wearing face protection.

 

 

Greg.

[Xaccers]

Most people I know find it more satisfying to sneak up behind a person. It's probably just because we like to see the expression on peoples faces when they realize, "Maybe we shouldn't have stood still."

 

Spend your time sneaking and you'll often miss the kill.

Like wise if you have a gun that is only good for sneaking up on people because of it's low range or slow velocity (allowing them to duck out the way) you'll miss the kills where something with speed and range would be needed, and likely get killed in doing so by a longer ranged weapon held by the enemy.

That was demonstrated well at AG05, when Pablo lost it at the younguns who all had stock TM's, were at the back of our group merrily shooting everyone at the front of our group in the back due to their lack of range (I think Pablo made a couple of them cry - bad Pablo).

 

[k30dxedle]

You know, I don't think I'd ever be able to figure out the thread title by looking through this page.

 

...

 

Whatever. Continue the TM v. ACM fight, edition 19000.

[chapel]

true blue, born and bred ACMer am i.

well, there's our problem right there.

 

true: TMs used to have higher initial quality but the ACMs are overtaking TM rapidly. and TMs tend to break faster than ACMs when you tune them to the levels we ACMers have done.

this is a false impression. especially from somebody who has (presumably) never owned a TM.

is this based on the metal bodies ACM's come with? no. metal bodies do not make for "better quality".

 

true: when you take care of your purchase they last better than a high quality TM that's been abused.

that's WHEN you baby your ACM while abusing a TM. what happens if you abuse your ACM as much as the abused TM?

i'm pretty sure you'd be up to your 3rd ACM by then. also, TM mechboxes break if you screw up your "upgrade math";

ACM mechboxes will just break, regardless of upgrade math.

 

true: you can get an ACM to be exactly your preferred weapon at a much lower cost than doing the same to a TM or another high-end.

preferred weapon, maybe. cheaper? i don't think so.

i'd like somebody to prove that ACMs are cheaper.

 

up to this point, it's a false impression:

 

"for the price of a TM, i can have 2-3 ACMs." - consider the costs of making sure each ACM works properly. by the time you've replaced the 1st one with a 3rd ACM, you would have spent MORE that what a TM cost. "i should've bought the TM." comes to mind.

 

"cheaper to upgrade" - please. it only takes about less than $50 to get a TM to shoot at ACM levels. the cost is negligible.

 

 

 

i have 2 TM's. it's been 7 years since i bought them. none of them have failed like ACMs would.

 

PS:

 

accuracy & range depends on barrel length, air cylinder size, air, wobble & ammo.

usually, just go with the longer barreled gun, BB's usually fly the same anyway

 

 

[Connery]

Spend your time sneaking and you'll often miss the kill.

Like wise if you have a gun that is only good for sneaking up on people because of it's low range or slow velocity (allowing them to duck out the way) you'll miss the kills where something with speed and range would be needed, and likely get killed in doing so by a longer ranged weapon held by the enemy.

That was demonstrated well at AG05, when Pablo lost it at the younguns who all had stock TM's, were at the back of our group merrily shooting everyone at the front of our group in the back due to their lack of range (I think Pablo made a couple of them cry - bad Pablo).

 

You make it sound like the only things we use are bone-stock TM guns. At the time I was using my P90 as my primary, I didn't have my PTW yet. I was just using that example to demonstrate that Power≠Superiority.

 

We all run extreme-range/power guns, so we have the ability to shoot from 100 yards away. Therefore, when sneaking fails, just shoot them. But it's all the more satisfying to actually end up behind them.