Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[Pablo]

You know it's entirely possible for both sides to be correct? One thing this thread is highlighting for me is the different experiences airsofters have - not just with their guns but with everything airsoft.

 

Edit: I also think it's too soon to compare the endurance of TM vs clones.

[snorkelman]

A what sort of tests do you want because other than MTBF tests that would need way too many guns to be practical I dont see any that would satisfy you. We could sit here for a month waiting on results of shore tests, elasticity tests, critical failure point tests run motors at extra high loads, put gears and pistons thru uber high RPM tests and plot all the failures you'ld ever want. But individual compionent testing becomes moot when the issue is as much reliability stemming from assembly as it is the quality of the components used.

 

B why assume people are being predudiced/defensive about them that the results wouldnt be trusted if carried out by soeone who owns a clone? You aren't talking about 11-year old 1 gun fanboys who've never tried anything else, got no points of reference to carry out their comparisons against or desperately trying to justify the only gun they can afford. At end of the day some of us have got the money to buy whatever we fancy without breaking into a sweat yet we still choose to buy clones. Its not a cash issue its a value for money issue. Just because I clear 3k USD a week doesn't mean Im going to hand over money to TM for something that I can pick up in the clone market for a third of the price, upgrade beyond the level of the stock TM and still have cash left in my pocket. I dont owe them a living.

 

C Forget the most folks dont do their own upgrades they give them to a shop to do for them - unless the shop has some sort of knee jerk predudice then the costs of the components and hourly rateis going to be the same to upgade the TM as it is the clone. If they're running around the field with upgraded TMs then they arent TMs any more and if they havent done those upgrades themselves they've paid someone else to do it. the clone might require a couple more parts than would be neccessary on the TM but provided the extra costs incurred on those additional components arent greater than the cash saved at initial purchase its still better VFM overall.

[Connery]

You're the one giving anecdotal evidence so you're in no position to demand experimental evidence

 

Ah, ya caught me, you dirty beggar.

 

I'm not about to spend another $350 on a TM G36C and a JG G36C just to test them both. If anyone is willing to donate that money to me, I'll gladly conduct a test. I just don't have that kind of money to spend.

 

You won't even tell us how many ACM guns have been returned compared with how many are sold at your store.

I know AH get very few returns compared with the amount of stock they shift, and many of the returns are down to user error.

 

I would if I could, but I can't. It's not my store. If it were, I'd tell you. Most of the time, people don't flat-out return them, they bring them in for some kind of servicing instead (like I said, 30 day warranty). The customer becomes irritated, because they had to waste twenty minutes driving to the store, and twenty minutes driving back home. Not real long, I admit, but that's enough time to watch an episode of Days of our Lives, and heaven forbid should the customer miss an episode of a daytime soap opera.

 

My post demonstrated 10 ACM guns that have been working without issue for up to 18 months, being heavily used.

 

And my previous posts demonstrated 14 CA M15A4s and SRC M4-A1s that consistently need to be repaired on a monthly basis, being barely used. The SRC guns don't even last the day without something going wrong on a good* day. It most likely boils down to one simple fact: You Brits tend to take better care of things that have a tendency of breaking, and kids tend to understand that just because it doesn't belong to you doesn't mean you can use it as a hammer.

 

*Good meaning a lot of people playing.

 

snorkelman, then how about this: Take two out of the box guns, one TM M4-A1 and one JG M4-A1, and bash them against a tree. My argument is out of box, not upgrades. Because if you're going to replace everything, then just build a gun from the ground up. You save even more by doing this, and going by some peoples logic, it's more fun.

[gunnermaniac]

Admitted, the gearbox on my JG MP5 SD6 cracked apparantly this happens to all of the JG SD6's .

 

Pesonally my view is that there are some poor ACM's but also some good ones whereas there are alot of good TM's. Reliability depends on which ACM you purchase, buy an unreliable one, it will be unreliable, buy a reliable one and it will be reliable, I don't think there is much more to it than that. Ok fair dues there probably be a few dodgy reliable ACM's that are shipped out due to poor QC but for that (for the reliable ones) is likely to be a minority.

 

Just my opinion...

[snorkelman]

snorkelman, then how about this: Take two out of the box guns, one TM M4-A1 and one JG M4-A1, and bash them against a tree. My argument is out of box, not upgrades. Because if you're going to replace everything, then just build a gun from the ground up. You save even more by doing this, and going by some peoples logic, it's more fun.

 

I could play bongos with them for all the use that would be in a debate about reliability/longevity thats been centred in the main around internals Otherwise I could just pick a clone of my choosing and ask you to run both it and a TM over with a truck.

 

You're argument changes with the wind direction - sometimes its TM is better out of the box, then its TMs will last longer with upgrades than a clone with the same upgrades, then its next to nobody upgrades themselves, then its my stock TM can whip the *albatross* of everyone at my field who are running guns with upgrades.

 

Once again since when has opening up a gun swapping out the stock barrel for a tightbore, reshimming and regreasing it, changing the piston head, cutting the spring to hit UK FPS, and putting metal bushings in to it in place of nylon ones amounted to replacing everything? The rest of the internal components (the bits that make it work and have the biggest impact on reliability) are at least the equal of the bits I'd be sat staring at from the inside of a bone stock TM as a result theres no more need to change any of those than there would be to change them on a TM.

 

Given the externals are likely to have a higher metal content then chances are I wouldnt be revisiting it three months later thinking about replacing the plastic receiver (that it doesnt have) with a metal one (that its already got)

 

add to that even doing as you suggested and 'build a gun from the ground up' is a sure fire way of spending more money not less - screws, foresights, trunions, receivers, receiver covers, hinges, stock pistol grip entire bunch of gearbox internals all bought individually? You'ld need to be certifiable to go down that route on the expectation it'll save money over any prebuilt gun.

 

The only time that would save anyone money is if they were sourcing every single part of a gun to create a one off design that shared next to heehaw with an existing off the shelf model. Even then theres a few smaller parts that would probably prove such a pain in the *albatross* to source individually that it would be a damn site easier to just strip them from a donor gun than try and spend months tracking them down individually.

 

At current point in time if you want to unwrap a gun and be as near to 100 percent sure that you can plug a battery in load it with some BBs and go skirmish then buy a TM. Pay the premium for it instead of opening a gearbox to confirm everything thats in it has been assembled as its supposed to be and shelling out a few quid on a couple of parts that could do with being better while keeping the rest of the cash in your pocket.

 

That 'almost 100 percent guaranteed not to be a lemming without having to check' is what you've paid for. Thats only worth paying if you dont open the damn thing up to increase the power, upgrade the bushings pop a metal body on it etc. Cos as soon as you do any of those you might have well bought the clone that came with the metal body and opened it up on day 1 for a quick look see to confirm it was all put together as intended.

 

[Connery]

I could play bongos with them for all the use that would be in a debate about reliability/longevity thats been centred in the main around internals Otherwise I could just pick a clone of my choosing and ask you to run both it and a TM over with a truck.

 

What happened to the quality metal body argument of ACM guns then?

 

You're argument changes with the wind direction - sometimes its TM is better out of the box, then its TMs will last longer with upgrades than a clone with the same upgrades, then its next to nobody upgrades themselves, then its my stock TM can whip the *albatross* of everyone at my field who are running guns with upgrades.

 

It all is the same, I'm just giving the argument of TM being better from that perspective.

 

Once again since when has opening up a gun swapping out the stock barrel for a tightbore, reshimming and regreasing it, changing the piston head, cutting the spring to hit UK FPS, and putting metal bushings in to it in place of nylon ones amounted to replacing everything? The rest of the internal components (the bits that make it work and have the biggest impact on reliability) are at least the equal of the bits I'd be sat staring at from the inside of a bone stock TM as a result theres no more need to change any of those than there would be to change them on a TM.

 

Because in the UK, your power is limited. Here in America, you've got silly fools running around with 600+ guns. For that, you do need to change everything, regardless the gun.

 

Given the externals are likely to have a higher metal content then chances are I wouldnt be revisiting it three months later thinking about replacing the plastic receiver (that it doesnt have) with a metal one (that its already got)

 

Then what about the people that want trademarks on their guns? ACM does not offer it.

 

add to that even doing as you suggested and 'build a gun from the ground up' is a sure fire way of spending more money not less - screws, foresights, trunions, receivers, receiver covers, hinges, stock pistol grip entire bunch of gearbox internals all bought individually? You'ld need to be certifiable to go down that route on the expectation it'll save money over any prebuilt gun.

 

The only time that would save anyone money is if they were sourcing every single part of a gun to create a one off design that shared next to heehaw with an existing off the shelf model. Even then theres a few smaller parts that would probably prove such a pain in the *albatross* to source individually that it would be a damn site easier to just strip them from a donor gun than try and spend months tracking them down individually.

 

Simply because you don't have to spend a lot of money to change a few things. Like I said, if you didn't have the limits you did, then it would be cheaper to build the gun from the ground up. After market mechboxes do come with their own screws, HurricanE bodies come with their own covers, etc.

 

At current point in time if you want to unwrap a gun and be as near to 100 percent sure that you can plug a battery in load it with some BBs and go skirmish then buy a TM. Pay the premium for it instead of opening a gearbox to confirm everything thats in it has been assembled as its supposed to be and shelling out a few quid on a couple of parts that could do with being better while keeping the rest of the cash in your pocket.

 

That 'almost 100 percent guaranteed not to be a lemming without having to check' is what you've paid for. Thats only worth paying if you dont open the damn thing up to increase the power, upgrade the bushings pop a metal body on it etc. Cos as soon as you do any of those you might have well bought the clone that came with the metal body and opened it up on day 1 for a quick look see to confirm it was all put together as intended.

 

And what about the people who don't know jack about gearboxes? "Oh, I'll buy myself a JG. What's going on, it's not working? Maybe I'll open it up anOH DEAR GOD WHERE DID MY SPRING GO?!"

 

New person now does not have a spring, spring guide, and possibly piston. What if they don't live anywhere near a shop? What if the nearest shop is 200km away? What if that shop doesn't even offer technical support?

[Xaccers]

Because in the UK, your power is limited. Here in America, you've got silly fools running around with 600+ guns. For that, you do need to change everything, regardless the gun.

 

So as you're changing everything inside the gun, it makes sense to buy ACM as its cheaper to start with.

 

 

Then what about the people that want trademarks on their guns? ACM does not offer it.

 

Nor does CA last time I checked.

Normally if someone wants a realistic looking gun, with trades, they'll buy a metal after market body for it, so again, if they're going to do that, what's the point in paying extra for a gun which they're going to swap all the internals out of and then the body?

Again, makes sense to use ACM as a base.

 

And what about the people who don't know jack about gearboxes? "Oh, I'll buy myself a JG. What's going on, it's not working? Maybe I'll open it up anOH DEAR GOD WHERE DID MY SPRING GO?!"

 

Get a broken gun, send it back to the retailer and demand an exchange.

TM's break too you know, so they'd be in the same situation.

There's plenty of information online which explains how to service guns.

 

New person now does not have a spring, spring guide, and possibly piston. What if they don't live anywhere near a shop? What if the nearest shop is 200km away? What if that shop doesn't even offer technical support?

 

There's this thing called the postal service, maybe you've heard about it?

 

Over here, buy ACM from reputable retailers and if you need to return it, they'll send Royal Mail to come and collect it, you just have to hand it over when they come knocking, or take it to the local post office for it to be collected. Costs you nothing.

[Catman]

hehe this debate isn't going to be solved easily/ever

 

Frankly only reason I'd buy a TM is if it has a significant advantage over a clone: like the TMs M14 is meant to have astounding range and accuracy, I'd do some research into the clone counter parts and if they came near enough to the TMs level I'd go for the cheaper clone.

 

You hear lots of bad things about clones and in most cases they've happened to someone but if you know how to put a gearbox together chances are you can sort any issues out in less than an hour. Though saying that theres a worry number of people out there that don't know how clean barrels at all or who squirt WD-40 down into their hop-up.

 

Are clone internals better than TMs? Hmm in the Jing Gong guns I've seen; the gears are better, TMs seem to have gears designed to fail if you put a too high a spring in. The JG clones have nice solid gears in them because in the factory stick in supidly high fps springs which take a while to settle in to ~350, so you get the thing out the box and are a little concerned because it's doing 380 However I would say that the TMs gearbox shell is made from better materials - or at least appears to be.

 

But I'm the type of person to favour clones, to me they're not guns to be put on the walls and/or stroked and foddled in the safezone while a crowd of people coo over it. They're downright dirty guns that you don't care if they get scratched = they're almost the AK of airsoft

 

Would I recommend a clone to someone at my skirmish site? Yes - because any issues I could sort it out for them (and have done on a few occasions)

Would I recommend a clone to someone on these/any forums? Nope.

[snorkelman]

seriously its like pulling teeth

 

gun with some bits to bring it up to TM spec = cheaper than gun already TM spec built by TM? = better value for money

 

"ah but over here we need uber upgraded guns". Great show me how buying TM will have any benefit in that respect? Dont try blowing smoke up my *albatross* - just cos we cant run high FPS guns in the UK most of us are well aware of whats required to build them

 

You choose..

 

Either

 

A gut a bundle of bits out of a donor gun and replace them with loads of new bits. For which one donor is as a good a base as the other except ones a cheaper base for that sort of canibalisation and the quality of the internals it shipped with wont matter a *fruitcage*...

 

or

 

B you go the whole hog as you suggest and build a gun from the ground up In which case what the *fruitcage* has that got to do with clones or TM then? when you wouldnt be buying either to achive your end results..

 

As much to the point - what do either of above have with 'new players looking to buy a gun and use it straight out of the box' which is the one place most of us are already quite willing to concede that at the moment TM still have the lower lemon rate to recomend them for that purpose, provided they're kept for that purpose.

 

ACM guns dont have trades big deal, again whats that got to do with reliability? Sweet FA

 

A blank metal receiver with heehaw trades, that can be cnc milled with accurate ones of the owners choice in my book is a damn site better than sommit with shitey awful stencil style laser trades ..that have no appreciable depth, and are sometimes plagued with improper kerning of letters and sperlling miztekz anyway.

 

Maybe its just me but Ive never seen much call for trades on a plastic copy of what in reality is a metal gun. Why have realistic trades on something thats made from totaly unrealistic materials? And if you're going to go down the trades route then wheres the proof marks, serial numbers and acceptance stamps that all go hand in hand with them on the real deal?

 

As for quality metal bodies, if you're talking diecast metal bodies then I wouldnt rate their tree bashing survival rate appreciably higher than plastic bodies and that goes for all of them hurricane guarder et al Die cast metal is a fracture prone material, its biggest advantage over plastic is in creating an impression of a metal gun. Like it or lump it a lot of folks still lay out money to buy them for their TMs and will gain little from a typical off the shelf diecast body than they wouldnt have got from the ones supplied as part of the purchase price of a clone.

 

Now if you're going the whole hog and laying out for some sort of CNC'd billet alloy receiver thats a different story. But given the clone is still cheaper than the TM after its internals have been brought up to the same spec then its not costing you any more to ditch a diecast body on a clone, than it is to ditch the plastic body on a TM. Once again theres no advantage there for the TM.

 

As for other guns that would have steel bodies, its far easier and cheaper to buy a clone AK with a steel receiver than it is to upgrade a TM AK to a steel receiver. Nine times out of ten your only options on the TM is to go for a diecast AK receiver which isnt even remotely correct for the weapon, or to get it done in steel lay out for an overpriced inokatsu kit that'll start at twice the cost of the complete steel receivered clone AK.

 

what if the user doesnt have a shop to buy a spring or a piston head? This is the 21st century we've got the interweb - same place he bought a clone from would most liklely sell him any part he required to sort it, assuming he cant source parts locally.

 

Again you're mixing n matching and making straw men to support a zillion different scenarios that you're then treating in total isolation to try and have them stand up:

 

W is buying an airsoft gun that needs uber upgraded to cope with demands at local sites filled with uber gun totting players

 

X is buying an airsoft gun he needs to build from scratch from gucci parts to cope with local sites with even more uber totting players

 

Y is buying an airsoft gun but has nobody in 200 miles to lend a hand when it comes to giving it a quick look over.. What happened to the local sites full of players with uber upgraded guns? where are they getting them upgraded why cant any of them lend a hand? And as much to the point what longterm use will his 'reliable out of the box TM' be in that environment He'll most likely join in the uber FPS race and be having his TM gutted to acheive it in no time anyway..

 

Z is buying an airsoft gun but the shop hes ordered it from accross the interweb is the only shop his interweb connection can reach and doesnt stock parts

 

aye right...

[Cpt]

Tokyo Maui:

 

Nylon bushings.

Aluminum gears.

M90 spring.

 

The weaker spring is what makes a TM more reliable.

 

Clone:

 

Nylon bushings/metal bushings on most new weapons.

Steel gears.

M100-M110 spring.

 

Chuck in metal bushings in a clone and you've got yourself a TM basically(but with the cost of only bushings, no new gears, spring etc). The piston is up to par with TM.

 

And yes. I mostly buy clones. Why? I love underdogs

[crimsonfalcon07]

Then why can I still run out there with my bone-stock P90 and effectively screw over the other team?

 

Maybe because they suck? Or maybe for the same reason that I can run out there with only a CM030 AEP and take down an entire 12 man squad; skill and tactics are the deciding factor, not the gun. I mean, I'm a bit biased because I take stealth very seriously, and it's rare for people to see me (and if they can't see me, they can't shoot me).

 

 

While that's all fine and dandy, I've never once seen a CYMA gun fit a magazine flush in the gun, and I've never seen a Dboys gun keep a mag in the gun out of the box. Of all the clone motors I've seen, none of them could stand the use after a few months of use, and ###### out. And if I hear about one more ACM M14 with reversed wiring, I will laugh heartily. Again.

 

Then perhaps you need to get with the times. My CYMA AKS fits the mag flush in the gun, and fits it a heck of a lot better than my CA SLR-105. Incidentally, CA is fully trademarked these days--mine has full Arsenal trades. My CYMA M14 also fits mags snugly, and so do every CM031A's that I've seen so far. Part of your problem is that your basing your opinions on outdated information. After 15 years, I could tell you a lot about how people with Asahi's and Escorts etc, poo pooed TM guns because "you get what you pay for," and "its just a cheap piece of ######," and guess what, for a lot of the early TM stuff, that was true; they weren't that great. Heck, they're still not as great as people make them out to be. The EXACT same thing is happening with clones, you have the same sort of close-minded stubborn people with no ability to adapt or to learn from history making the EXACT same comments. It's really quite sad.

 

 

Also, I'd love it if you could show me a test of an ACM against a TM, and show me the gearboxes. I've heard of too many ACM ones crack far before the TM ones have. Actual numbers from a third party not biased against either, please.

 

Only time will tell about that, but QC has really improved, and I've heard of several CM031's last for well over 100K rounds. I suspect your experience is just too limited to have a good idea of the quality of what's out these days.

 

Besides, pistons on TM guns are extremely durable. I've only seen them strip if they're extremely abused. I've got a gun shooting about 380FPS that had a stock piston in it until about a month ago, when I decided to Super Core it.

 

I've seen plenty TM guns strip pistons, snap gearboxes, strip gears, break cylinder heads, etc. Those were stock guns too; TM may be reliable, but it's not godly. They don't use upgrade parts, they just put the gearbox together correctly, and shim it well, and the QC is typically pretty solid. But, most other high-ends come pre-upgraded.

 

Or, if you meant that the gun is easily $100 cheaper, let someone who doesn't know jack about what they're doing have it as their first gun and don't let them open up the gearbox.

 

That's what I meant, yes. And no, that's not relevant to the argument. Clearly a TM is better constructed stock than most clones. But the point is that clones are better upgrade platforms. And, AS SUCH, if you're upgrading, you damn well better know how to open the gearbox, or else you're going to break the gun, no matter whether it's a TM or a clone. Your logic here, frankly, sucks. And, one of the biggest reasons that clones fail faster than TM's is because they're so much more powerful, not because they're inferior. And it's not that hard to get replacement parts.

 

I can use this example because it's exactly how everyone here is. Only a select few actually open up their own guns, simply because, "Oh, I don't need to take my gun apart, the technician at the shop that is twenty minutes from my house can do it, or the technician at the shop thirty minutes from my house can do it."

 

So? Let the tech do it. They won't be able to open a TM, and if they're noobish enough not to be able to do their own upgrading, they're likely to also want their gun upgraded to well over the stock 280 fps of a TM. So that's again, not relevant in the slightest. TM has no advantage to people who want an upgraded gun (which is most inexperienced people, remember, FPS is everything).

 

Can't argue it because I haven't seen a JG BAR-10 yet, nor have I heard of anybody with one.

 

Now you have. Look around in the Sniper's Haven, there's lots of us out there. It's a really surprisingly good gun.

 

But I've heard the ACM version is a piece of *beep* from the owner. All he wanted to do was save a few bucks, now he has a gun that shoots wildly in all directions.

 

ACM version of what? All of my ACM's have been upgraded and are competitive with upgraded high-end guns. And, the cost was much lower than it would have been otherwise.

 

 

Unfortunately, the only KWA guns are their M4 and G36C, and even then, the M4 has a proprietary gearbox, so if you're like most of the enthusiasts here, you can't fit your awesome tan Marine body, or your HurricanE 416 kit to it. I've only heard of one good G&G, and even then, nobody carries it around here, because of the horrible reputation that G&G has. CA I've heard has gotten better, but I've seen someone try to up the FPS on their SCAR, and just couldn't get it pushing past 320 with a Guarder SP120, no sealing issues or anything, everything was done correctly. As for KWA, there's no argument about it being awesome, but if I just can't put a 'correct' body on it, I'll stick with my PTW.

 

Well, no argument here. They're coming out with a M4 CQB, M4S, and M16 soon, and you can do quite a bit to change that. Besides, asides from the lack of trades, the body is plenty good (way better than any TM, anyways), and if you want it tan, well, spray paint costs what, 5 dollars?

 

G&G Gen. 3's are way better than their old ones, which sucked. Again, you're behind the times by months, and a lot can happen in a month.

 

As for your friend with the CA, well, if they really had been doing it correctly, then they would have been fine. My guess would be a hopup issue, personally.

 

And yes, I love my PTW also. But the KWA is disgustingly good, and it's almost a thousand dollars cheaper. Performance and durability is on par with the PTW, and it costs barely more than a TM. Why on earth get a TM if you could get a KWA?

[Connery]

Gah, too many to quote.

 

Xaccers: At least with TM I don't have to do it as fast. A lot of people run stock for a long time, upgrade a little bit, upgrade a little bit more, etc. The silly fools I was talking about are the people that want to prove, "Oh, my technical prowess is so amazing, I can make a 600+ gun shoot for 1k rounds before it blows up!" Exaggeration, I know, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

Most people here don't buy CA, either. Here, everybody goes TM. The only people with CA guns are people on the mainland. Even my CA36 I want to get rid of, considering I need to replace the hop unit. The people here won't buy an ACM and put it into a nice metal body simply because it's like putting a modified Civic engine in a Ferrari. Who in their right minds would do that? I mean, sure, it's an incredibly powerful engine, but...it's a Civic engine. In a Ferrari. That's just stupid.

 

The example I used was for the 'smart' people. If something is broke and it's 'only' $130, they're not going to send it back. They're going to buy a new one, "Oh, my starter died. Now I can get into the sport, I'll get a TM!" My earlier example of the two guys comes to mind. Oh, and most people don't want to pay the postage just to fix a gun. There's also the paranoia of USPS 'misplacing' packages that aren't insured. Adding in insurance can cost some big money, too.

 

Catman: Thank you, your example of people that don't know jack about working on guns sums up 90% of the population here. 8 out of 10 times, if I tell a person how to keep their seals lubed with pure silicone oil, the immediate words to come out of their mouths are, "Oh, I've got some WD-40 somewhere..."

 

Also, remember: TM does not care about international market. That's pretty much the only reason they don't make a gun shooting over 300fps.

 

And on the flipside of your 'AK of Airsoft' statement, I know a person who takes such immaculate care of all his guns, he refuses to put a scratch on any of them, including his Dboys AK-74. He even went as far as to return the first one because it had a rust hole in the stock (although if you think about it, that's a good thing, because if it grew...yeah).

 

snorkelman: Aside from A and B, is your entire post just trollbait? I don't see a single shred of debate there, just statements that don't take into account that I may be giving different examples in different sets of scenarios all across the country. At least Xaccers can argue the point in his entire post.

 

A: You have all these parts from a donor gun to go into a new gun with new parts as well. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Speed gun? Systema speed gears and motor, spring guide, spring, high-voltage battery, piston, piston head, cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, bushings w/bearings, *possibly* new box, wiring. Power gun? Gears, motor, spring guide, spring, battery, piston, piston head, cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, bushings w/bearings, new box, wiring, barrel, prayers that it won't strip from too strong a spring, and a field that will even let you use the gun when you finish it.

 

B: It has everything to do with "Which is cheaper" because it's cheaper to do it this way. You buy a prebuilt gun and change every little thing, you're spending the cost of said gun on top of the parts.

 

Cpt: Maui? Cool, I can hop a boat there and buy some guns from Tokyo, because it's on Maui now.

 

Seriously though, what's the point of having those amazing steel gears when they get swapped out anyway? I know of at least one M4 that stripped the amazing steel gears. Ended up putting stock TM ones in because he had them lying around, and those lasted him to this day.

 

crimsonfalcon07: No, they're actually pretty skilled. Get with the times? I'm talking about the current CYMA M14. And in the KART EBR, why does the mag wobble around in it? Once I see a clone in person that is better than a TM, I will agree with you. Until then, I can stand by my opinion with confidence.

 

My experience is limited, yes, simply because no reputable dealer around here carries the 'bad' clones. Keep in mind, I am in no way calling all ACM guns bad, even I will admit that the JG G36C is a good gun. But TM is still better quality.

 

I'm not saying that TM is godly, and thank you for stating what I've been saying all along: They put it together correctly. If I'm going to pay $130 for anything, it damn well better be correct. In fact, if it's more than $20, then I'll be really mad if something is wrong out of the box.

 

If a gun is already 'pre-upgraded', then why waste the money upgrading it any more? And if you're stating the power is causing the failures, upgrade a TM to the same power an ACM is shooting, and stress test them both. Only that can budge me from my opinion on ACM not being good upgrade platforms.

 

Uh...what? Going by your logic here, then it's cheaper to buy a KWA M4, which we both agree on. So, what's the point here? Are you just trying to spin things?

 

I retract my statement, I met someone with a BAR-10 today. He wanted to sell it to get a Tanaka M700. And why would I want to go to Sniping Haven? I don't use a boltie, nor do I want to get insulted because I'm 'that guy with the AEG pretending to snipe'. Sniping just isn't my style, and I'm still learning that part of the sport.

 

ACM version of the VSR-10, some AGM gun. He can't hit a guava from thirty feet away using .25s. He's very disappointed in it. Aside from the point, he knows about TM stuff and that they're much better quality, he just wanted to save a few bucks, but now he's stuck with a big stick.

 

$7, actually. Krylon is expensive here. Like I said, no reputable dealer around here carries G&G, so of course I'm going to be behind the times, simply because nobody has one that can prove me wrong. A few opinions on the internet are nice, but if I can't see it for myself, then my opinion can't be changed. My friend with the CA ended up changing a few other things, got the gun up to the desired FPS. Wasn't the hop, either. As for the KWA, I won't get a TM if I can get a KWA. But considering I despise the M16/M4 (sans 416) and G36 families for some strange reason, I'll stick with the PTW because I can easily change FPS to deter cheaters. "*bang* Didn't call it with the black bolt? *change to blue, bang* Didn't call it? *change to gold, bang* Didn't call? *change to red, bang* Oh, now he felt it." Also, I like the heft of the PTW.

[Pablo]

What exactly is being debated here at this point?

 

TM vs ACM out of the box?

 

TM vs ACM as a base for upgrades/tuning?

 

TM vs ACM for something I've missed in the confusion?

 

Systema PTW vs ACM (which seems to have crept in recently)?

 

Seriously, what the hell is under debate here? Viper, you really are weathercocking so much the only point that we're getting is that ACM aren't "as good" as TM, but your arguments for why this is the case are wandering all over the place. Anyways, let me see if this helps at all:

 

Most people here don't buy CA, either. Here, everybody goes TM. The only people with CA guns are people on the mainland. Even my CA36 I want to get rid of, considering I need to replace the hop unit. The people here won't buy an ACM and put it into a nice metal body simply because it's like putting a modified Civic engine in a Ferrari. Who in their right minds would do that? I mean, sure, it's an incredibly powerful engine, but...it's a Civic engine. In a Ferrari. That's just stupid.

 

Let me get this right: You're saying no-one would put ACM internals in a metal body, but they will use TM ones, right? So do they keep them stock internals, or do they upgrade them for higher fps? Which TM bits remain at the end of this process, then maybe we can compare the ACM components and discuss which of those is better, because they're the only bits relevant to any TM/ACM comparison in that scenario. For the ones you mention later, see below.

 

The example I used was for the 'smart' people. If something is broke and it's 'only' $130, they're not going to send it back. They're going to buy a new one, "Oh, my starter died. Now I can get into the sport, I'll get a TM!" My earlier example of the two guys comes to mind. Oh, and most people don't want to pay the postage just to fix a gun. There's also the paranoia of USPS 'misplacing' packages that aren't insured. Adding in insurance can cost some big money, too.

 

Cultural difference then - most Brits would send something back if they paid £65 for it and it arrived broken - I know I would - so that's one aspect where our different opinions affect the argument. We can take that into consideration and move on, right? Though it's interesting to note that you then later say:

 

I'm not saying that TM is godly, and thank you for stating what I've been saying all along: They put it together correctly. If I'm going to pay $130 for anything, it damn well better be correct. In fact, if it's more than $20, then I'll be really mad if something is wrong out of the box.

 

Mad enough to send it back maybe? Just a thought.

 

Now to your listing of Systema upgrades. I assume you're suggesting these in both ACM and TM base guns, right? Okay, here goes:

 

A: You have all these parts from a donor gun to go into a new gun with new parts as well. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Speed gun? Systema speed gears and motor, spring guide, spring, high-voltage battery, piston, piston head, cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, bushings w/bearings, *possibly* new box, wiring.

 

So what's left from the original? I make it the following:

 

I make it the tappet plate + spring, anti-reversal latch, trigger switch, selector plate, barrel and hop unit (and possibly the original gearbox).

 

Power gun? Gears, motor, spring guide, spring, battery, piston, piston head, cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, bushings w/bearings, new box, wiring, barrel, prayers that it won't strip from too strong a spring, and a field that will even let you use the gun when you finish it.

 

And what's left here?:

 

I make it the tappet plate + spring, anti-reversal latch, trigger switch, selector plate and hop unit.

 

So at most here, what we're left comparing are the TM and ACM base gun's tappet plates, anti-reversal latches, barrels, hop units and possibly gearboxes (assuming your upgrader is going to replace the body as you've mentioned previously, though that is a total assumption on my part).

 

If a gun is already 'pre-upgraded', then why waste the money upgrading it any more? And if you're stating the power is causing the failures, upgrade a TM to the same power an ACM is shooting, and stress test them both. Only that can budge me from my opinion on ACM not being good upgrade platforms.

 

I've put the relevant bit in bold. They don't need upgrading. Of course, if you're talking about the upgrades above anyway, the only bits that need to be any good are the tappet plate, anti-reversal latch, barrel, trigger switch, selector plate, hop unit and possibly gearbox in either the TM or ACM

 

(I just know I've missed something out of the gearbox that's blindingly obvious, but I can't think what it is).

[snorkelman]

its not trollbaiting its responding with increasing exasperation to someone who keeps switching the needs/requirements of one scenario with the needs/requirements of a completely different one.

 

'Clones will never EQUAL a TM without a lot of money needing spent that will end up costing more than buying the TM to start with would' I suggest that a clone with a few bits replaced will be the equal of a TM as far as reliability goes to answer that

 

Suddenly its "ah but it needs everything changed to hit uber FPS so you might as well throw it all away and start from scratch". That wasn't the need requirement being rebutted when I gave the example of replacing a few parts to acheive TM levels of reliability. Uber FPS guns are a seperate issue

 

Having givine you an A or B choice for uber FPs routes you still havent answered why a TM would be any more neccessary than a clone when it came to those options ...Sure you rhymed off a bundle of parts that would be applicable to either gun (or neither gun if building from ground up like you persist in claiming is a more cost effective option) but you've still not stated any reason why the TM is any more useful in that respect than the clone

 

you still havent answered what trades have to do with reliability, nor why authentic trades should be of any great importance on a plastic gun that isnt even constructed from a material that remotely resembles the original.

 

you still havent answered why a diecast metal body supplied as part of a clone should be any less tree-proof than a diecast off the shelf body of the sort TM owners would have to purchase seperately at extra expense to add to their gun (which plenty of them do)

 

and you still havent answered why a newb would be unable to source parts for a clone, but could both buy the clone and set out to follow the advice of folks on forums to open it up and have a look-see rather than use it straigh out of the box. If he/she has read that advice (only reason they wouldnt just try to unpack it and go) then it follows they've got a net connection to various forums to have got that advice from. Why does that net connection suddenly dissapear as soon as they need to buy parts or need additional advice on taking the gun down and reassembling it. ie you've constructed a self-contradicting scenario that simply doesnt stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

 

Its like trying to wrestle with spaghetti

[Connery]

Apparently, trying to give different examples of the same problems is weathercocking and not the same argument. I'll take my leave from this 'flame the guy that likes Japanese guns more than clones' until someone other than Xaccers can actually see that.

[cafemondo]

sooooooo what was am bestest gnu then ???????????????

 

no, no, no only joking, the amount of words and conversation tracks to keep in my head has given me cancer

 

 

[Shinden]

Oh boy..........

 

Well if anything pretty much ACMs and major branded guns too share the same thing and can be customized with internal upgrade parts, optional accesories, and bottom line they all shoot BBs. Now what makes things different is the value here as well as what people may call 'quality/reliability/build/performance'. In my point of view I really don't like knock offs of a major brands' products. In other things it is like a Crest brand toothpaste made in USA vs. a Crest labled/re-brand knockoff toothpaste made in China which caused a stir from the FDA. It's also comparable to you buying a new BMW/Toyota/Chevy car vs. a cheap knockoff Shuanghuan Automobile/Chery car. Also to add Rolex watches vs. fake Rolex's.

 

Now what's the deal you may ask? Now both orignal brand products and fake brand products will WORK the same mechanically as (in airsoft gun), the gun is a replica gun that will shoot a 6mm projectile BB and can be customized. Now with ALL fake/rebrand knockoff/conterfiet products, all conterfiet products are not made to the original manufacturer's specification in terms of size, power, packaging, QC, and parts. This means there is always a form of part innacuracies that will derive the product's appeal, performance, and lastly function. People buy cheap things because thats all they can afford and nothing is wrong about buying an ACM gun, but if you have the extra money, spend it wisely on a better product. Perhaps it may sound like you are just buying the brand name (which is true in some products other than airsoft), but really that brand name has a reason why it is a major brand. That's because thier products have been approved by various organizations. From cars, watches, bags, and airsoft, they all get approved as a genuine product and not a fake conterfiet product. So in airsoft world, (for Japanese products), it's usually stamped with the ASGK mark.

 

So in another example, I was fixing a watch where the customer TOLD me that it is a REAL ceramic Chanel watch. Now before I made the move, if you ask for a fix, repair, warranty on a major brand item/product in a specific country/store, you can actually have the service covered by thier warrenty. Now in this case upon inspecting that Chanel watch, it was a fake. "Sorry" I said, "It's a fake Chanel", and the customer's wife got really upset, but I still fixed the watch anyways. What does it mean? If they brought that watch to a real Chanel dealer, they would be in trouble as to why they have a fake Chanel watch and all sorts of lawsuits as who sold it as a fake, where it was purchased and so on. Then again the customers was at least smart enough to NOT go to the dealer, but STUPID enough to say thier watch is real. So if I was in Japan again with a TM -Knock off brand gun and ask TM's warrenty to cover it because it is a TM gun, I will not have thier warrenty nor thier service because it is not a TM gun.

 

If you don't have the money to buy major brand guns because of thier prices, it's ok really.

 

 

'Clones will never EQUAL a TM without a lot of money needing spent that will end up costing more than buying the TM to start with would' I suggest that a clone with a few bits replaced will be the equal of a TM as far as reliability goes to answer that

 

Clones in the first place cannot equal the newer TM guns. In terms of power and range (this is because of the spring used), that's not a really good statement as why ACM guns shoot farther than TM guns because it is only a spring that does that job (unless inner barrel is changed to a longer one from the beginning). Marui gun's have thier hop-ups to compensate for lack of power (which gives the gun it's range). You need a lot of money into a TM to make it shoot LIKE an ACM? I don't think so. If you just want to make the gun shoot a little strong with range, you technically only need a spring $10~$15, bushing $10, and shims $10(roughly up to 350~370FPS). Now the gun will last roughly the same as a ACM now. If you want to make the gun shoot more reliable, same goes for both chinese guns and major brand guns, you'll need to change most of the parts in the gun.

 

Having given you an A or B choice for uber FPs routes you still havent answered why a TM would be any more neccessary than a clone when it came to those options ...Sure you rhymed off a bundle of parts that would be applicable to either gun (or neither gun if building from ground up like you persist in claiming is a more cost effective option) but you've still not stated any reason why the TM is any more useful in that respect than the clone

 

TM's use? Currently TM guns today are bought by for the trademarks, extreme part compatibility, stock performance, detail, design, function, durability, warrenty, high tune-up customs, approved ASGK gun, Made in Japan, to be different, to shoot farther, better upgrade potentials with most brands of parts, and quality. Simple. Useful? Marui guns have been always useful. Marui also provides many gun designs too as well as newer guns never before seen as clones and new innovative features. (like the new AK74mn, MAC10, and so on.)

 

you still havent answered what trades have to do with reliability, nor why authentic trades should be of any great importance on a plastic gun that isnt even constructed from a material that remotely resembles the original.

Trademarks, paintings, finish, detail, and shape, what does it have to do with reliability or importance? Now that would be your mistake too. Anything on the surface does not enhance performance, regardless putting hello kitty stickers and lightings on your guitar/gun wouldn't enhance your playing...it's just a mental/psychological thing that it appeals to the user. Whatever appeals to the user makes him confident of the product that he got what he liked. Trademarks are also not just markings on the gun, but most important it's the shape/form of the gun. You probably would not like to walk around witha gun that looks like a craftsman tool or garden hose would you? So trades are the shape of the gun too, but for the little words on your gun, now that is aimed for the collectors and maniacs. People who like attention to things when a company makes a product always see if most of the details are accurate to the real thing. So for all you plastic modellers too, you all like to have the exact same markings that you would find on a real fighter jet, tank, heli, or model car right? That's because you are attention to detail. It's a mental thing that if it's a REPLICA of something, it must be atleast 80% replicated from the real one or there is not point in airsoft being called Replica Guns right? First of all do you know why plastic was used in the beginning? Not because it was cheap and all, but it was the weight issue and semi-durability. The plastic will break, but due to that it flexs (and in time making wobbles for some,) that helped the toy gun from just breaking instantly. Also people in Japan too are not used to heavy weapons so before it was of a certain interest to make guns lightweight since airsofters are not always muscle-man soldiers, but rather thin or big boned guys. There are average sized players too though.

 

you still havent answered why a diecast metal body supplied as part of a clone should be any less tree-proof than a diecast off the shelf body of the sort TM owners would have to purchase seperately at extra expense to add to their gun (which plenty of them do)

 

Lead content+pot meta...Most ACM made guns wouldn't have money to make thier guns out of the better diecast materials right? Since Lead is available like crazy in China that's what's also in your guns too. That means if you did try to break the metal body on chinese guns, they WILL break. In fact even G&P metal bodies (where the metal content is less) will still snap off too. So in general DIECAST METAL BODIES are not the holy grail to invincible bodies. Same applies to every brand even the PTW. If you tried to smash your gun against a tree, guarentee your ACM gun will suffer more damage than a metal bodied PTW, Marui, and other major brands and third party metal bodies. Unless your gun is made of full steel or quarter inch thick metal then it shouldn't break easy. That aside, a supplied die-cast metal body is a nice thing chinese companies gives to your new gun purchase, but people will argue the imperfections they find on chinese metal bodies like broken off spot wields, rust, cracks (I've seen some), blotches of glue, scratchs, roughness, and other things because the buyer is more of a gun maniac and prefers his guns to be nicely made/replicated.

 

and you still havent answered why a newb would be unable to source parts for a clone, but could both buy the clone and set out to follow the advice of folks on forums to open it up and have a look-see rather than use it straigh out of the box. If he/she has read that advice (only reason they wouldnt just try to unpack it and go) then it follows they've got a net connection to various forums to have got that advice from. Why does that net connection suddenly dissapear as soon as they need to buy parts or need additional advice on taking the gun down and reassembling it. ie you've constructed a self-contradicting scenario that simply doesnt stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

 

The problem I see here is clones/ACM as you call it, have certain issues right out of the box other than the basic gearbox internals (like bushings, pistons, and gears). Having someone new into airsoft is a good thing and its also a good thing they start off with something they can afford. They can either keep thier first purchase and fix problems later to make it better or move on to an even better gun. This still depends on what BRAND of chinese made gun they buy too as some brands do not have 100% compatible parts like other chinese manufacturers. So that's another issue. If the 'newb' buys a good chinese copy gun, he has a better chance to keep using the gun. Next thing is most new airsofters really don't want to start messing with thier gun by opening it up after buying it and changing parts. They rather just buy something thats good out of the box that they don't need to do anything to it to make it shoot reliable or good and of course the gun has the looks, feel, and details they want. Once they get the hang of airsoft as a hobby they can start opening up thier guns slowly understanding the basics and move on to another gun (same or new.).

 

Most people are appealed in airsoft guns by the Looks, Feel, Power, Range, Accuracy, Magazine size, Battery life, Detail, upgradeability, % of metal used, Rails/accessories, quality, reliability, and PRICE.

 

That all combined people of different point of views will either end up with a cheap WELL M16 to a CYMA M14, Marui P90 to a Systema MAX and etc...So it all depends on what the buyer likes, BUT if he believes that product he bought is the best thing compared to other brands he can be right or can be wrong. In this case of the heated debate of Clones vs TM guns, my take is that I don't like FAKE, COUNTERFEIT, KNOCK-OFF, CHEAPLY MADE products. Honestly it doesn't feel right for me to own a non-authentic product of an actual thing. Most clone guns that I handle always and sell too sound like they will break down anytime soon. ACM guns/Clones, they are not made the same as Marui's guns, rather it is a mockery to me. Treating airsoft as some cheap sport isn't airsoft to me. ACM guns don't have (quality/overall performance/build) what they really are because they are just knock-offs. Same should go for you guys buying fake Luis Vuiton bags for your G/F or wife when you can actually spend money to buy the real one. Sure they all do the same thing, but still difference lies in the product's construction and build. In general Clones have not really improved on anything, but rather just stepped a notch lower into making guns with little to no trademarks, cheaper parts, cheaper quality metals, cheaper batteries, but just install necessary parts to have the gun shoot a little stronger than Marui guns and sell at a really bargain price. At the end, you still have a fake item made cheap and bought cheap that works the same but does not work great like a Marui. Now Marui guns are (about time, finally) patented, full metal guns, shooting at 300FPS, accurate, reasonable range, and high quality build. Price may be steep for some, but that price will pay off as you use a GENUINE airsoft product. There is a difference in using an actual product vs. a clone product and it's value of what it's worth.

[T3CH]

Erm they are all genuine airsoft products, there's no such thing as an airsoft BRAND that registered with a trademark, so they are ALL genuine. Oh and also at no point does any ACM manufacturer claim they are anything other than 'clones'

 

And what a remarkably snobby attitude to the RIF's themselves, if it doesn't cost over, say $400, it doesn't even deserve your attention? Wow, have you actually HELD any of the current generation of clones? Or perhaps compared a G&G M14 or TM m14 to an AGM M14 and marveled at how a gun costing a THIRD as much is more reliable and better looking than both of them? (yes I know the CYMA's better but I've not held one to compare it, I own an AGM and have done the comparison myself, much to the chagrin of the owners of the TM and the G&G)

 

So what if there's no trades, I'm not a snob. I'm not paying for a brand name, I'm paying for a tool to do a job. Why, should I pay 3-6 times as much, when I can get something that, possibly (after some fettling or, occasionally straight out of the box), is BETTER, than the expensive 'trademarked' one? And besides, half the fun in my mind is making the gun better, and I cam do that for HALF of what someone with an ICS or G&P or G&G, etc, can. So I wind up with a gun that is BETTER and CHEAPER.

 

Oh and btw Jing Gong, a clone company, and therefore knockoff artists/scammers/crooks in your book, are making parts for the big name manufacturers due to their gearbox parts being BETTER than said manufacturers OEM parts.

 

Oh and in my mind, something is worth what you are willing to pay for it

[TriggerhappyLouis]

Jing Gong G36C, yes over the site limits, but beats the TM version in accuracy and range, just downgrade the spring and the ROF will be better too!

[iloveics]

As much as I love all the new ak clones, I strongly object to the term "TM= Fail" which I saw a few pages back.

If it wasn't for TM aeg's might not even exsist.

[zentaurus]

i guess it's really insane to bang heads with someone who refuses to budge . . . . so . . .

 

. . . . just one last statement: if clones were so bad and were not acceptably improving, there would less people using them now -- but more and more players are using ACM clones and even mainstream retailers are having more and more of them in stock. why? has society gone so perverse it wants to constantly punish itself

 

oh, i just remembered: i do own TMs, viper, if you count GBBs

 

. . . and our ACMs do last -- otherwise, we wouldn't continue buying them

 

cheerio,

[Shinden]

Erm they are all genuine airsoft products, there's no such thing as an airsoft BRAND that registered with a trademark, so they are ALL genuine. Oh and also at no point does any ACM manufacturer claim they are anything other than 'clones'

 

Yes indeed, but I believe you are missing the point of what GENUINE means. It is authentic and not a conterfeit. Clones/ACMs are

pretty much a copied merchandise from a major manufacturer and that is NOT Genuine. In Japan, they do have the license to the trademark only for Japan ONLY, however they do NOT have the international license. That is why some guns that you order outside of Japan may have the trademarks removed and etc. ACM companies themselves are just ripping off designs off another company's product/engineering and that is entirely a cloning/copying. If a company copies an existing product, that company themselves are pretty much known as your so-called ACM/Clone. Then again companies like SRC, Classic Army, ICS, G&G pretty much copied other companies to become who they are now today. So some companies copy and start making 100% original products and some companies like WELL, BELL, JG (they are becoming better,) CYMA, BE, DE, G2, FP, and all those chinese manufacturer's are still just copying the same exact product or just degrading the product in a way that can be made with huge cost-cuts and mass producing it. The public pretty much claimed that ACM/Clone name for those Chinese companies making cheaper solutions and it is true they are copying other companies' designs.

 

And what a remarkably snobby attitude to the RIF's themselves, if it doesn't cost over, say $400, it doesn't even deserve your attention? Wow, have you actually HELD any of the current generation of clones? Or perhaps compared a G&G M14 or TM m14 to an AGM M14 and marveled at how a gun costing a THIRD as much is more reliable and better looking than both of them? (yes I know the CYMA's better but I've not held one to compare it, I own an AGM and have done the comparison myself, much to the chagrin of the owners of the TM and the G&G)

 

RIF as an Realistic Imitation Firearm right? If the price was tag was ALL around $400 plus it doesn't mean I will turn my head around to buy it because of the brand, high price, and so on. NO. I'll tell you straight up that I have handled/sold many China manufactured guns and guns from TM, G&G, CA, CAW and so on left and right. AGM M14? Give me a break. Don't try comparing that with the G&G M14 and TM14. Atleast the CYMA M14 is a nicer copy (with the bolt catch) but apparently thier battery plugs are the smaller standard plugs, when the original Marui one is the large type connector. Simple fix, but they should have used a large type connector right out of the box. AGM is not a bad gun too, still you should atleast give some credit to the Marui with the full SPRINGFIELD ARMORY markings on the receiver.

 

So what if there's no trades, I'm not a snob. I'm not paying for a brand name, I'm paying for a tool to do a job. Why, should I pay 3-6 times as much, when I can get something that, possibly (after some fettling or, occasionally straight out of the box), is BETTER, than the expensive 'trademarked' one? And besides, half the fun in my mind is making the gun better, and I cam do that for HALF of what someone with an ICS or G&P or G&G, etc, can. So I wind up with a gun that is BETTER and CHEAPER.

 

Just like I said. In Japan there are many otakus/gun freaks/gun maniacs/movie prop maniacs/and so on. They are all attention to DETAIL and REALISM. Japan first cannot own any Handguns, Assault Rifles, SMGs, and Grenade Launchers, but limited to Shotguns and Rifles. What does that mean? Gun maniacs and hobbyist themselves want to buy a gun, but because of a strict law what they can find at a local hobby shop like a gun is a Model Gun/Prop Gun or an Airsoft Gun. You take trademarks and neat finishes, hobby-grade packaging, and details, guarentee not many folks in Japan would want one. But because there are these nice finishes, details, reliable product, good performance, user compatibility/upgrade capablilities, warrenty, 3rd Party Parts and so on, people buy them. Price is not much of an obstacle for hobbyist who pursue the finer product Made in Japan.

 

Being better and cheaper at the end is still a cheaper gun. You won't have a better good return value for it. Cheap guns what it's worth for is to be used in games and collecting too, but it's all down to personal preferences. Like I said, if you are those people who like detail and trades, granted you have a high chance of buying something that's got trades rather something without it. Now in your case you have said two things. "BETTER and CHEAPER." Now EVERYONE has thier view on what is better (including trades), performance, looks, plastic feels, metal quality, accurate, ROF, FPS, and so on. To me what the word BETTER is not a very ideal choice to use because there are too many variables in that word. If you say what is 'BEST' that would completely change the subject.

Now going back to "Better", ACM guns from companies like AGM, JG, and so on do perform better than Marui guns would do because thier springs are already upgraded and some JG Guns have thier Chinese batteries (orange color) that look like regular 8.4v, but rather has a larger cell than the regular Sanyo 8.4 cells. That explains why the batteries has a little more punch. I can see already that you are not those people who like detail, but rather have a gun to use as a tool. Correct logic, but remember, the original companies gun had those trademarks to begin with to make it look like the exact tool of what the US military uses. It's your call if you like details on your gun including a slighly better finish on metal parts.

 

Having trademarks is just a personal thing, however it is something to expect if the product is to be an official product. There are companies like KWA, whose new KM4A1 does not have trademarks (other than KWA's), metal body, and hicap included, but that compared to Clones is a huge difference with it's new gearbox design(which is not to point of a clone anymore).

 

Now trademarks are one point in most TM guns have for realism, but that is not why you pay a higher price. Your question as to "why should you pay 3 times more on something that shoots the same BB (in fact a lower velocity) and can still upgrade and bottom line not spend much compared to a TM?". 1) It's not a fake product. 2) It is made with high quality control so a chance of a lemon is not as high as to a ACM. 3) Smaller parts and functions do not break easily as compared. 3) Gearbox parts (despite shooting a lower velocities) is designed to last longer. 4) Higher percentage of part compatibilities and part efficeincy with different brands. 5) Trademarks. 6) Packaging. 7) Overall hop up range and accuracy. 8) Higher quality material used compared to ACM. 9) Each gun is mostly 90% consistent on the product line. 10) Higher Return Value/Selling Value. 11) Warrenty. 12) Part interchangeability is higher. 13) Upgrade stress is a lot higher. 14) Motor does not DIE out on couple shots in some brands (SRC's motors are becoming good now though). 15) Variety in gun series.

 

In your case you like to do things cheap which is not bad thing at all. Hell I'll go cheap with some home appliances too. Then again at the end you'll understand that if you put a little more money you could have bought the product that does the same thing that does not have much defects or has more functions to it or potential. Like another comparison, like you buying an Ipod knock-off vs. an actual Apple Ipod. Same thing, but different build quality and better performance.

 

Marui guns don't shoot how like the ACM's do, however Marui can make thier guns shoot stronger if it wasn't for the .98J rule. If ACM's had thier guns shoot at the same velocities (in fact there are couple that do,) you rather spend a little more cash on a product that is more consistent out of the box rather your opening up your gun and (you say rectifying any known problem is fun,) fixing the gun. At least with Marui guns you don't really have to open it up just to make the gun work perfectly or flawlessly with any internal or external parts. Why is fixing a defective-like product FUN? That's another way to say you bought a new car, but it's battery, air filter, and couple solenoids here and there are known problems. That's not how it works. You buy something it should work and perform flawlessly without any effort to the product and without modifying the product on your first buy. Honestly it is more fun to custmomize a perfectly fine product into something more better (in your personal preference of "better".)

 

 

Oh and btw Jing Gong, a clone company, and therefore knockoff artists/scammers/crooks in your book, are making parts for the big name manufacturers due to their gearbox parts being BETTER than said manufacturers OEM parts.

 

Being better? Wrong. JG and so on, thier parts are manufactured from a different company/manufacturer. That's why you cannot order thier parts seperately for the warrenty through JG. I hope you knew that at least. Many chinese manfacturers order parts by bulk that is not treated and that is how they cut thier costs. By bulk parts cheaply and you can start your own business. Marui handles all of thier own parts and that's why they have thier parts diagram that you can send the gun to the company and have it repaired (if you are in Japan).

Oh and in my mind, something is worth what you are willing to pay for it.

Yes indeed that it true, but also (like everywhere), you get what you pay for. You pay cheap money for it, at the end it's only worth that much. Value.

 

Now I don't think I said Clones are bad and should be destroyed blahblahblah, but instead I said it's good/ok. I'm not promoting clones though as it's not really supporting the real companies behind thier AEG feats like TM for example. Regardless of who you are and Where you are, people are attracted to one thing. CHEAP. Yes that is the magic word in every retail shop. "Oh because this is cheap and I can buy it! Awesome!" Everyone is like that even me, BUT difference lies when you compare the cheap product to a relatively pricey item. You cannot argue a product that is LIKE a similar product and cheaper so many people will just buy cheaper products and be happy with it. Yet ACMs are also a turn-off for some new players too as they think airsoft is all about chinese made guns shooting BBs that looks cheaply made too. I've come across that many times now, so I recommend them the high quality product. Some people may also think the ACM guns with the rails are a bargain because it can be used as a scrap gun and use the parts for here and there, but the metal quality is not the same as those major manufacturer's brands and some RAS system are attached differently. Retailers have no choice, but to sell cheap guns just to make a some profit. It isn't helping out much you know. On the other hand it does open up airsoft to the low-income~mid-income people so you'll have some variety of customers.

 

 

[snorkelman]

I choose to buy clones because i want steel AKs neither the current TM AKs nor the new improved 'patented up the wazooo compatible with nothing but themselves' ones offer that.

 

Parts compatibility - thats what you get when you're the defacto standard for a generic market, thats self fullfilling. But by same token thats something you lose when you patent everything in sight in hope of retrospectively fixing the mistake of creating an open system thats unexpectedly spiralled outside your control.

 

Once you have an open platform history suggests that you have little chance of reigning it back in via patents and new properietary designs. IBM tried that with the MC architecture of the PS/2 it didnt regain them the personal computer market - instead it almost finished them by leaving them with proprietary product that nobody bought in the numbers expected because it was no longer compatible with the generic open system monster they themselves had created.

 

Designs that cloners dont do? great Pity they dont have an MP40 an L85 an FN2000 an M249 an AKSU an L1A1 a SCAR an HK416 an AKM..

 

Buying clones to make do? nopes I'm deliberately buying clones regardless of the fact I could cheerfully buy a 8 TMs a week without having to live on beans and toast in order to do so.cash isnt the issue lack of use for 6.08 barrels plastic receivers basic gearsets and 280 FPS springs that would all end up in the big parts bucket are my reasons.

 

Potmetal clone bodies versus diecast bodies (which are also clones but seems your snobbery doesnt class those as such)? The very fact you use potmetal for describing one and diecast for describing the other lets us all know where you're going with that argument - straight into fantasy land Because pot metal as its applied to airsoft cast metal parts is diecast metal parts. All use zinc alloy compounds with trace elements of other metals. Nobody uses greater than trace amounts of lead in their potmetal/diecast metal assemblies because theres no benefit from it either in cost or structural integrity. One will fail as quickly as the other when swung against a tree etc hoever one is supplied as part of the cost of the gun one is supplied as an aftermarket part you have to pay extra for

 

The chinese have been accused of using lead within the pigments for their finishes (where it does have a cost advantage) but to be frank its a non issue considering that the items are not aimed at the childrens market.

 

Fake rolex analogies - again sorry but you're barking up the wrong tree rolex have desings that are copyrighted trademakrked and patented world wide TM do not. The only offence commited in cloning a TM would be to attempt to manufacture or sell it inside TMs patent protected areas ie Japan. Outside Japan its open season

 

Add to that no one is passing off clones as TMs, branding or packaging them as such. Thus folks are unlikely to ever attempt to seek a TM warranty repair on a DBoys CYMA or JG They are recognised as beign generic equivalents. Before you try and gain the moral high ground of 'its TMs work thats beign profited from' bear in mind its TMs work in producing parts for the producion of toy versions of proprietary gun designs. TM havent exaclty been morally squeaky clean when it came to making toy replicas of firearms Did they seek permission from Izy Tula or kalashnikov himself before producing plastic replicas of AKs to name but one? Course they didnt. Pot kettle black.

 

TM warranties? In japan sure thing In the UK? well the guns have exactly the same statutory warranty as any other item sold over here clones included. There certainly isnt a manufacturers warranty we could call in for a TM to allow us to bypass the retailer (and no warranty at all for ones personally imported from HK or Japan)

 

[snorkelman]

If a company copies an existing product, that company themselves are pretty much known as your so-called ACM/Clone. Then again companies like SRC, Classic Army, ICS, G&G pretty much copied other companies to become who they are now today. So some companies copy and start making 100% original products and some companies like WELL, BELL, JG (they are becoming better,) CYMA, BE, DE, G2, FP, and all those chinese manufacturer's are still just copying the same exact product or just degrading the product in a way that can be made with huge cost-cuts and mass producing it. The public pretty much claimed that ACM/Clone name for those Chinese companies making cheaper solutions and it is true they are copying other companies' designs.

 

Either its a clone or it isnt - length of time in the market and a shift over time to greater levels of quality control are the only distinctions between CA etc and the others you've listed. 100 percent original clones thats the best one yet Last I looked they still used TM patented hop systems and mechbox designs same as the ACM guns, combined with parts interchangability with TM originals that mean theres nothing 100 percent original in any of them.

 

Heres a hint we dont care Im not here to make TM a living TM themselves have never given a hoot about the needs of any market outside of Japan be it designs we'd like to see, hiogher performance export versions or just parts availability. So why should we suddenly give a hoot about them? If they were that bothered about the potential rise of clones they should have taken out world wide patents when they had the chance. They didnt thats their loss.

 

Its only now that the loss of non japanese home market sales to clones has turned out to be costing them money that they're now doing anything about it. Its only now they need new designs they can aquire world wide patents on that they've finally moved their corporate backsides and tried to bring something new to the party. Well its too little too late far as Im concerned. TM can cry me a river I wont be buying their guns.

 

Post what you please EOT as far as Im concerned its already went beyond circular to the point of becoming spherical.

[Shinden]

I choose to buy clones because i want steel AKs neither the current TM AKs nor the new improved 'patented up the wazooo compatible with nothing but themselves' ones offer that.

 

Parts compatibility - thats what you get when you're the defacto standard for a generic market, thats self fullfilling. But by same token thats something you lose when you patent everything in sight in hope of retrospectively fixing the mistake of creating an open system thats unexpectedly spiralled outside your control.

 

Yes and that is not a problem. You chose to buy an AK with a steel body and that's nobody's fault. That's because you know what you already want. For parts issue, newer Marui guns are becoming more and more propreitory as they honeslty did not want any third party internal parts to begin with. If you do know the Japanese ARMS Magazine, they ususally write articles on how to modify Marui guns with different aftermarket parts, however ironically (even to the company's promotion of thier product), TM slams at ARMS Magazine to not write down anything that has to do with modifiying thier guns with certain parts and etc. TM is becoming less and less compatible with the newer guns like the Type 89, AEP series, AK74mn, and so on. Only time will tell how TM will handle thier new guns.

 

Designs that cloners dont do? great Pity they dont have an MP40 an L85 an FN2000 an M249 an AKSU an L1A1 a SCAR an HK416 an AKM..

 

Either its a clone or it isnt - length of time in the market and a shift over time to greater levels of quality control are the only distinctions between CA etc and the others you've listed. 100 percent original clones thats the best one yet Last I looked they still used TM patented hop systems and mechbox designs same as the ACM guns, combined with parts interchangability with TM originals that mean theres nothing 100 percent original in any of them.

 

I have not clarified myself on that subject as I generalized too much. There is companies like ARMY, JLS, A&K, and so on who has made the MP40, L85, FN2000, M249, AKSU, L1A1, Scar, and the HK416. Frankly, they are all copies of existing guns on the market including functions and gearbox designs. The JLS FN2000 for example is one gun that was not made by any major manufacturers, or to add a spring-action CX-4 Storm. The shell is new, however internally they are still using existing gearbox designs. Now, most chinese companies are starting to design thier own original gearbox designs too as well as the gun itself. Gears, hop up, barrel, and so on, those parts are (as you say) are being used still in some manufacturer's gun despite the shell. As to the 100% original ACM guns I did not say 100% CLONEs, rather I said So some companies copy and start making 100% original products . That is correct. Companies first start off with existing designs and later develop thier own gearbox designs and parts. Current clone guns are just clone guns and nothing is original about it. Guns like the FN2000 is a small step into a original product, but it is still a milestone from a complete original gun from the manufacturer if it relied on all original manufacter's parts and designs. In time we should see more different product from both sides of ACM and major companies like CA, TM, WA, etc.

 

Buying clones to make do? nopes I'm deliberately buying clones regardless of the fact I could cheerfully buy a 8 TMs a week without having to live on beans and toast in order to do so.cash isnt the issue lack of use for 6.08 barrels plastic receivers basic gearsets and 280 FPS springs that would all end up in the big parts bucket are my reasons

 

That is not my problem. If it's not in your budget and you have to alter your regular life and diet, forget it. If you like customizing so much, you'll pretty much have spare parts here and there regardless of what brand of gun you have. That is the same for most guns. JG guns are also plastic receievers and some parts in the gearbox can use a little work, but after you're done shopping for parts you migh have as well changed out most parts except the spring. There's only a difference of a few parts left if you were to fully change the gearbox internals compared to a TM (for example). Perhaps only parts you'll have extra lying around is the spring, nylon bushings, and spring guide. Gears are optional though as Marui gears can handle around 400FPS+. So its not like a lot of parts. And becuase both current JG M4 and Marui M4 is also plastic, you 'll still have a plastic body lying around in your scrap/parts box.

 

Potmetal clone bodies versus diecast bodies (which are also clones but seems your snobbery doesnt class those as such)? The very fact you use potmetal for describing one and diecast for describing the other lets us all know where you're going with that argument - straight into fantasy land Because pot metal as its applied to airsoft cast metal parts is diecast metal parts. All use zinc alloy compounds with trace elements of other metals. Nobody uses greater than trace amounts of lead in their potmetal/diecast metal assemblies because theres no benefit from it either in cost or structural integrity. One will fail as quickly as the other when swung against a tree etc hoever one is supplied as part of the cost of the gun one is supplied as an aftermarket part you have to pay extra for

 

Both are honestly potmetal, but the amount of other metals is different to one manufacturer, thus making some diecast metal more durable, brittle, or with better finish. Lead is cheap and also explains why lead is used in cheap jewelry too as a substitute. It won't stop them from using a large amount of lead in most chinese product (other than airsoft too) to keep costs down. It is an easy metal to work with and lead was used in paint to allow it to dry fast and make it more stronger, but in airsoft having contents of cheaper metal is not a good feeling. Cheaper products always involve with cheaper materials. It doesn't work the other way. Besides JG's guns are still plastic bodies except where ever metal was applied on the copied product. It will still break regardless if the gun came with a metal body or you have bought an aftermarket body. Paying extra for a metal body that is structually sound is better than having a cheap metal-bodied gun that has some issues with breaking or lead content. For steel bodied guns too, there is a case where lead could be found, but as long as 96% of it is actual steel I don't mind. Most major companies are shifting thier attention to full metal guns or glass-fiber bodies so in time we can hope to see more guns in metal.

 

The chinese have been accused of using lead within the pigments for their finishes (where it does have a cost advantage) but to be frank its a non issue considering that the items are not aimed at the childrens market

 

Still accused, but anyways despite you saying it is not aimed at the childrens' market, many adults are buying airsoft guns for thier CHILDREN. It's not a grownup sport/hobby/training you know. Look at arnies too, there are users from 10 and up. What's stopping them from buying airsoft guns if it's cheap and thier parents are willing to buy them one? *(obviously only thing stopping is the VCRA and must be 18+ to buy guns unless you have a parent.) They got lead issues too (unless the parents don't care at all.)

Fake rolex analogies - again sorry but you're barking up the wrong tree rolex have desings that are copyrighted trademakrked and patented world wide TM do not. The only offence commited in cloning a TM would be to attempt to manufacture or sell it inside TMs patent protected areas ie Japan. Outside Japan its open season

 

No I'm not. TM has come in late, but they have finally a patent on thier gearbox design worldwide. So outside Japan, it won't open season anytime next year.

 

 

Add to that no one is passing off clones as TMs, branding or packaging them as such. Thus folks are unlikely to ever attempt to seek a TM warranty repair on a DBoys CYMA or JG They are recognised as beign generic equivalents. Before you try and gain the moral high ground of 'its TMs work thats beign profited from' bear in mind its TMs work in producing parts for the producion of toy versions of proprietary gun designs. TM havent exaclty been morally squeaky clean when it came to making toy replicas of firearms Did they seek permission from Izy Tula or kalashnikov himself before producing plastic replicas of AKs to name but one? Course they didnt. Pot kettle black.

 

Correct, there is no problem of chinese companies passing clones as TMs, however do understand retailers cannot really sell them in Japan because of the law unless it is a conversion kit. Yet, there are couple shops in Japan selling them anyways. In USA and Europe too Dboys, TM, CYMA, JG or not, we all do repairs on them regardless becuase the product's warrenty has been void if it is sold out side of thier country. Pretty much we are on our own, however you have to admit that some guns are not easy to repair and some do not come with the shop's warrenty. TM honestly do have the rights and license to produce their guns. Thier AK series are not licensed from Kalashinikov because Cyberguns owns that license now, but Cybergun works with other companies in Japan too to have thier AK47 series licensed as well as none AK products. Due to most laws prohibiting reproduction of an actual firearm/replica only exist in thier country and states only, it doesn't apply in Japan because it is international (as well as HK, China, Taiwan etc,...). Even for real guns too, there has been many copies of AK here and there *(Russian, Ukranian, USA, China, Korea, Middle East) and so on. With so many copies, Marui can simply pick the real steel company brand that is not prohibited and make it as long as it does not conflict with other companies and rights (but that's not the case.)

 

warranties? In japan sure thing In the UK? well the guns have exactly the same statutory warranty as any other item sold over here clones included. There certainly isnt a manufacturers warranty we could call in for a TM to allow us to bypass the retailer (and no warranty at all for ones personally imported from HK or Japan)

 

Yes in Japan they have wonderful warrenties, but being outside of Japan, warrently only means yourself or your local dealer. Any Japanese product sold outside of it's country is voided already (unless exempted from). Same goes for clones and everything else. You can only get the dealer's warrenty.

 

Heres a hint we dont care Im not here to make TM a living TM themselves have never given a hoot about the needs of any market outside of Japan be it designs we'd like to see, hiogher performance export versions or just parts availability. So why should we suddenly give a hoot about them? If they were that bothered about the potential rise of clones they should have taken out world wide patents when they had the chance. They didnt thats their loss. Its only now that the loss of non japanese home market sales to clones has turned out to be costing them money that they're now doing anything about it. Its only now they need new designs they can aquire world wide patents on that they've finally moved their corporate backsides and tried to bring something new to the party. Well its too little too late far as Im concerned. TM can cry me a river I wont be buying their guns.

In time we'll see how it goes. If it really was TM's loss or not now's not the time to hoot as you say. Only thing to hoot about is Clones vs TM. How it changed things and how it not changed things.

 

It was a little late, but next year is going to be interesting to see what they will do about clones. CA as well as other companies made the move to make plastic bodied guns and in fact cheaper too. And lastly I'm not convincing you to buy TMs, nor is TM convincing you to buy thier guns. It's just a debate.