Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[Duckling]

Viper & Xaccers...

 

Get a room, or try the PM system, you guys are way, way of topic.

[Connery]

We're not flaming anyone, Duckling. We're having an open, civil debate where others are free to chime in. If a mod didn't like it, they'd either lock the thread or split it off. I'm open to either one, but we're not harming anyone by doing this.

 

If you don't like it, there's a handy report button.

[RedScare]

Im actually finding this debate quite informative

[greg]

I'm loving the information too.

 

But taking up 3 pages of a 'most accurate & ranged airsoft gun' thread with 'my manufacturer is better than your manufacturer'??

 

There maybe folk out there who want to read some info in this thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,relating to the title.

 

A new post would have been appropriate had you seen it coming.

 

You are truly a pair of great debaters, no wonder your post counts are so high.

 

 

Greg.

 

Ps. Vip, you state that you are up for the thread being locked because of your actions,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's not exactly respectful to the op is it?

 

 

[Connery]

Ps. Vip, you state that you are up for the thread being locked because of your actions,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's not exactly respectful to the op is it?

 

It's the moderators call. I mean no disrespect, but it is a public forum, and I do believe the OP has already made his decision (TM Benelli M3 Shorty). For now, the only topics left open in this thread is the debate between Xaccers and myself.

[Shinden]

I think it's best to create a seperate topic already...Depiste both informative debates, I do demand some of the issues to be cleared up on to a front page/review database. Let either Mods remove a section of this topic and put it to somewhere else if that is to be the case.

 

Anyways, Gunnermanic, dropping PM to you.

[Xaccers]

Could be, but from what I've seen, they treat the ones that cost more even more brutally than they treat the cheap ones.

 

Must be a local cultural difference then.

 

Then why is it cheaper than paying for a battery and charger?

 

Not sure what you're say, why is a CA/ICS/TM cheaper than a battery and charger, or why is an ACM cheaper even though most come with decent batteries and ok chargers?

 

If a consumer damages what comes with the gun and tries to return it to you, would you exchange it without hassle? You now have a product that you cannot sell for the already low price a clone is. That is, unless, you are going to turn to underhanded tactics. If you return it to the distributor, what are they going to do? They're not the one that made the gun, they have no reason to take it back.

 

If it can be shown that the consumer broke it, I would offer a repair and charge for it, otherwise no exchange. If it can't, I'd be legally bound to offer an exchange if it was within a reasonable time period.

What to do with non-functioning guns that have been returned? Repair them and sell them at a lower price as repaired guns.

I still make a profit.

 

Then where is the product recall from JG? SRC? Dboys?

 

Where's the product recall from Peugeot when a load of their turbo diesels were fitted with non-turbo con rods?

Simple, there wasn't one, they just replaced the engine when it was brought in after the duff one blew up.

Unless there's a public health issue like with food, there's no legal duty to offer recalls.

It should be noted that many airsoft manufacturers do supply stores with parts that should be retro-fitted as in a recall, however most stores just put the parts up for sale. I believe this happened with a TM.

 

I would say, "When was the last time a 12 year old listened to you regarding property that isn't theirs," but I forgot about the difference in cultures and upbringing.

 

Thankfully so far the younguns renting guns have been terrified of damaging the guns they rent. I'm not that scary am I?

 

No, unfortunately. As soon as it was returned to him, he dumped the gun. Remember, this is America. Throwing away money is as common as breathing here.

 

He dumped a gun because he couldn't replace a £10 piece???

Assuming the plastic has melted but the contacts are ok, just get a new trigger unit, remove the contacts from the old one, and screw them into the new one - job done.

If the contacts had burnt out (common on all V2 no matter who makes them) then either rebuild with copper, or spend £10 on a new trigger unit and use the contacts from that.

 

 

I really can't comment on ACM being good, considering the only ACM gun I've actually seen the internals of had reversed wiring straight from China. An easy fix, yes, but if this is how it is straight from the factory, then that tells you something. Seeing that I've read on here that many ACM M14s shared this problem, something really doesn't sound right with their quality control.

 

That'll be the AGM M14, not indicative of all ACM, and I believe they are now coming correctly wired.

 

And at another shop that I started seeing clones in recently, those ones die within three days use. And they're not even reputable in that sense. Not to mention, they're asking $200 for a TM Mk23.

 

How many shops do you actually work at?

 

 

You know, I would argue this one, but I can't, considering that everything I've gotten at Wal*Mart is all name-brand. And considering Wal*Mart isn't any cheaper than Sears...yeah. Wal*Mart is just convenience here. There's nothing special about it.

 

Walmart bought Asda over here, large supermarket chain, like Tesco.

They do their own or cheap brand items, DVD players for under £20.

If Walmart would give you a new DVD player and $160 just for bringing in your old one, would you do it?

[Pablo]

 

So...you spent how much doing all this?

 

Ties in with your question too, Xaccers.

 

Hmmm, lemme see:

 

Reshimming and bearing replacement to make it quieter = £10 worth of shims and bearings

Replacing the motor and modifying the piston to increase ROF. = £35 for the motor, nowt to modify the piston

Modifying the hop unit to improve range and accuracy. = nothing, just cut up a section of o-ring

Modifications I won't go into to tune the FPS to my required setting (and not just the spring neither). = nothing (had the stuff)

Replacing the motor and fitting a newly modified piston setup to reduce the ROF again (and improve various aspects of the performance) = nothing 'cos I used the original motor (would have cost £10 for the piston, but Jimmy gave me a piston)

Adjusting the trigger mechanism to improve responsiveness. = nothing

 

So in all it actually cost me £45, but with the additional bits (if I didn't already have them) I might have spent an additional £20 tops.

 

As I didn't need to make some of these improvements (higher ROF stuff and adjusting the FPS to my own requirements with the higher ROF) I could have spent £10 on shims and grease and left it at that. I didn't need to replace the bearings either - I just bought some when I could in case I ever needed to replace them while I was playing (always handy to keep some spares in your toolbox) but when I fitted them just to see what happened, the gearbox was lovely and quiet so they're staying.

 

Anyhoo, as most of this thread has become what it has, I think it's better to edit the title and let it run...

 

 

...and I'm open to better thread title ideas by PM please - don't post them here, just PM me okay?

[gunnermaniac]

It's the moderators call. I mean no disrespect, but it is a public forum, and I do believe the OP has already made his decision (TM Benelli M3 Shorty). For now, the only topics left open in this thread is the debate between Xaccers and myself.

 

Actually I would still like to know what spring would give 330 fps in my CA36.If anyone does know I would be very greatfull!

 

I think it's best to create a seperate topic already...Depiste both informative debates, I do demand some of the issues to be cleared up on to a front page/review database. Let either Mods remove a section of this topic and put it to somewhere else if that is to be the case.

 

Anyways, Gunnermanic, dropping PM to you.

 

Have you sent it as I never got the PM...

 

Thanks in advance

[Xaccers]

Actually I would still like to know what spring would give 330 fps in my CA36.If anyone does know I would be very greatfull!

 

Try a M100, although in several G36's it's taken a M110, which has then settled down to 328ish.

 

[gunnermaniac]

Try a M100, although in several G36's it's taken a M110, which has then settled down to 328ish.

 

Cheers Xaccers

[Connery]

Not sure what you're say, why is a CA/ICS/TM cheaper than a battery and charger, or why is an ACM cheaper even though most come with decent batteries and ok chargers?

 

Sorry for not being specific again. I meant, "Why is it cheaper with a battery and charger than without one?"

 

If it can be shown that the consumer broke it, I would offer a repair and charge for it, otherwise no exchange. If it can't, I'd be legally bound to offer an exchange if it was within a reasonable time period.

What to do with non-functioning guns that have been returned? Repair them and sell them at a lower price as repaired guns.

I still make a profit.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but around here, nobody wants to buy used/repaired guns from shops. If they're going to do that, they might as well buy them from individuals for less.

 

Where's the product recall from Peugeot when a load of their turbo diesels were fitted with non-turbo con rods?

Simple, there wasn't one, they just replaced the engine when it was brought in after the duff one blew up.

Unless there's a public health issue like with food, there's no legal duty to offer recalls.

It should be noted that many airsoft manufacturers do supply stores with parts that should be retro-fitted as in a recall, however most stores just put the parts up for sale. I believe this happened with a TM.

 

Haven't seen this from JG yet, then. When it does, PM me please, and I'll make sure to tell everybody that bought one.

 

Thankfully so far the younguns renting guns have been terrified of damaging the guns they rent. I'm not that scary am I?

 

Well, that just means that the younguns you rent to have already had the fear of God beat into them. Lucky you, because they don't allow it here anymore. Now, discipline is called 'You're on a time out, go to your room which has a TV, fridge, PS3, Xbox360, your Cellular Phone, computer, and all your toys!'

 

He dumped a gun because he couldn't replace a £10 piece???

Assuming the plastic has melted but the contacts are ok, just get a new trigger unit, remove the contacts from the old one, and screw them into the new one - job done.

If the contacts had burnt out (common on all V2 no matter who makes them) then either rebuild with copper, or spend £10 on a new trigger unit and use the contacts from that.

 

Like I said, it discouraged him because nobody could figure out why it burnt. And if it was just going to keep doing it again and again, then he didn't want to keep tearing it apart again and again.

 

That'll be the AGM M14, not indicative of all ACM, and I believe they are now coming correctly wired.

 

I thought I read a post stating that they were opened at the store and fixed, not straight from the manufacturer.

 

How many shops do you actually work at?

 

One, but I visit the others frequently enough. The second one I spoke of is right up the street, and only started bringing in airsoft to try and undercut the main store I'm speaking of. They actually are a video game/Japanese toy store. And because of all the ###### they bring in, they're not doing so hot in that sense.

 

Walmart bought Asda over here, large supermarket chain, like Tesco.

They do their own or cheap brand items, DVD players for under £20.

If Walmart would give you a new DVD player and $160 just for bringing in your old one, would you do it?

 

For free money, sure why not. But keep in mind, most DVD players here cost $80 now. The really expensive ones are the ones that are multi-tray/come with all the REALLY awesome features.

 

Hmmm, lemme see:

 

Reshimming and bearing replacement to make it quieter = £10 worth of shims and bearings

Replacing the motor and modifying the piston to increase ROF. = £35 for the motor, nowt to modify the piston

Modifying the hop unit to improve range and accuracy. = nothing, just cut up a section of o-ring

Modifications I won't go into to tune the FPS to my required setting (and not just the spring neither). = nothing (had the stuff)

Replacing the motor and fitting a newly modified piston setup to reduce the ROF again (and improve various aspects of the performance) = nothing 'cos I used the original motor (would have cost £10 for the piston, but Jimmy gave me a piston)

Adjusting the trigger mechanism to improve responsiveness. = nothing

 

So in all it actually cost me £45, but with the additional bits (if I didn't already have them) I might have spent an additional £20 tops.

 

As I didn't need to make some of these improvements (higher ROF stuff and adjusting the FPS to my own requirements with the higher ROF) I could have spent £10 on shims and grease and left it at that. I didn't need to replace the bearings either - I just bought some when I could in case I ever needed to replace them while I was playing (always handy to keep some spares in your toolbox) but when I fitted them just to see what happened, the gearbox was lovely and quiet so they're staying.

 

So if you didn't have all the other stuff, about $130 extra? That's the cost of a JG here. How much did the gun initially cost? And can you give me the comparison to get that model TM shooting the same way?

 

Actually I would still like to know what spring would give 330 fps in my CA36.If anyone does know I would be very greatfull!

 

A Guarder SP90 or PDI 120% should do it.

[gunnermaniac]

Sorry for not being specific again. I meant, "Why is it cheaper with a battery and charger than without one?"

 

 

 

That's all fine and dandy, but around here, nobody wants to buy used/repaired guns from shops. If they're going to do that, they might as well buy them from individuals for less.

 

 

 

Haven't seen this from JG yet, then. When it does, PM me please, and I'll make sure to tell everybody that bought one.

 

 

 

Well, that just means that the younguns you rent to have already had the fear of God beat into them. Lucky you, because they don't allow it here anymore. Now, discipline is called 'You're on a time out, go to your room which has a TV, fridge, PS3, Xbox360, your Cellular Phone, computer, and all your toys!'

 

 

 

Like I said, it discouraged him because nobody could figure out why it burnt. And if it was just going to keep doing it again and again, then he didn't want to keep tearing it apart again and again.

 

 

 

I thought I read a post stating that they were opened at the store and fixed, not straight from the manufacturer.

 

 

 

One, but I visit the others frequently enough. The second one I spoke of is right up the street, and only started bringing in airsoft to try and undercut the main store I'm speaking of. They actually are a video game/Japanese toy store. And because of all the ###### they bring in, they're not doing so hot in that sense.

 

 

 

For free money, sure why not. But keep in mind, most DVD players here cost $80 now. The really expensive ones are the ones that are multi-tray/come with all the REALLY awesome features.

 

 

 

So if you didn't have all the other stuff, about $130 extra? That's the cost of a JG here. How much did the gun initially cost? And can you give me the comparison to get that model TM shooting the same way?

 

 

 

A Guarder SP90 or PDI 120% should do it.

 

Thanks once again

 

[Xaccers]

Sorry for not being specific again. I meant, "Why is it cheaper with a battery and charger than without one?"

 

From the same shop or one shop offering battery/charger and charging less than another shop?

 

 

That's all fine and dandy, but around here, nobody wants to buy used/repaired guns from shops. If they're going to do that, they might as well buy them from individuals for less.

 

More fool them. They make great rental guns. Many sites will buy an entire stock load of non-functioning guns, to build a high number of working guns and have a surplus of spares.

Why pay full price for a gun that's going to be a rental when it's cheaper to buy and fix non-functioning ones?

 

Haven't seen this from JG yet, then. When it does, PM me please, and I'll make sure to tell everybody that bought one.

 

Like I said, there's normally no reason for any manufacturers of any items, airsoft or not, to issue recalls etc unless there's a public health issue (like contaminated food, or a kettle that may electrocute consumers).

As with the Peugeot example, they kept quiet about it, so many owners ended up paying for new engines when it was a known fault.

Thankfully, with ACM the trend tends to be they respond to feed back and modify their production run PDQ, look at the Army R85 for example, they delayed releasing it until some of the original issues were resolved.

Unfortunately the same can't be said about more expensive manufacturers, look at how long ICS took to sort out their tappet plates, and STAR plastic gearboxes still crack within the first 2 games of the day.

 

Well, that just means that the younguns you rent to have already had the fear of God beat into them. Lucky you, because they don't allow it here anymore. Now, discipline is called 'You're on a time out, go to your room which has a TV, fridge, PS3, Xbox360, your Cellular Phone, computer, and all your toys!'

 

 

Like I said, it discouraged him because nobody could figure out why it burnt. And if it was just going to keep doing it again and again, then he didn't want to keep tearing it apart again and again.

 

If it burnt out it would have been because the motor was drawing too much current because of a jam, or a short.

Now, you can give me a jammed gearbox, and I can open it and everything will be ok, because the action of opening it will have cleared the jam.

I'm sorry, but I don't have a very high opinion of someone's technical ability if they claim they're really good at tuning guns but can't work that one out.

 

I thought I read a post stating that they were opened at the store and fixed, not straight from the manufacturer.

 

As I said, ACM manufacturers are very concerned about their reputations, hence why they make constant improvements.

The JG G36C was tried with metal bushes, but it was found the nylon ones were better so they returned to them.

Incidently, I understand that JG have won the contract to make TM parts in China, so they're apparently good enough for TM.

 

One, but I visit the others frequently enough. The second one I spoke of is right up the street, and only started bringing in airsoft to try and undercut the main store I'm speaking of. They actually are a video game/Japanese toy store. And because of all the ###### they bring in, they're not doing so hot in that sense.

 

Then get onto your supplier and find out why you're getting so many duff ones.

 

For free money, sure why not. But keep in mind, most DVD players here cost $80 now. The really expensive ones are the ones that are multi-tray/come with all the REALLY awesome features.

 

Saving $160 is free money, that's the thing. So you may have to take it back to the shop, or over here, have it collected by the shop.

Now, you can spend that $160 on the same gun by a different manufacturer and still have to return it.

 

 

So if you didn't have all the other stuff, about $130 extra? That's the cost of a JG here. How much did the gun initially cost? And can you give me the comparison to get that model TM shooting the same way?

 

Thousands, you'd have to do all the R&D for TM to develop a M249 body and gearbox etc

The CA that it's a copy of on the other hand retails at £575 (approx $1150), while the A&K retails at £200 (approx $400)

So with the $130 extra that's $530 against $1150.

[Pablo]

So if you didn't have all the other stuff, about $130 extra? That's the cost of a JG here. How much did the gun initially cost? And can you give me the comparison to get that model TM shooting the same way?

 

Re-read my post please. The total cost of the bits I used that I already had would be no more then £20 ($40)

 

Gun cost: £200

 

Added bits: £45 + £20's worth of bits I had = £65

 

Added bits that were actually necessary for the gun to operate effectively = £10's worth of shimming and grease. The hop could have been fixed with all sorts of things that anyone in a position to buy an airsoft gun could easily optain for free so I don't count that.

 

So I spent 32% of the cost of the gun on upgrades BUT only 0.5% (£10) of the cost of the gun was necessary to make the gun work effectively. I'd say that's pretty good.

 

All of which is beside the point: you can tune a clone.

 

 

[transist]

All of which is beside the point: you can tune a clone.

Uh oh.

 

Pablo has spoken.

Thread over.

[metalhead666]

I've completely lost track of what this debate is about. All I know is that with $70 worth of parts, my JLS SCAR, (yes, the infamous JLS), was as good as most stock CA's I've seen (with the exception of max. range, it blew tokyo marui's outta the water), which seems to prove to me that some parts + TLC = better than TM.

[Connery]

From the same shop or one shop offering battery/charger and charging less than another shop?

 

One shop costs less than the other.

 

More fool them. They make great rental guns. Many sites will buy an entire stock load of non-functioning guns, to build a high number of working guns and have a surplus of spares.

Why pay full price for a gun that's going to be a rental when it's cheaper to buy and fix non-functioning ones?

 

Usually, a person doesn't try to get rid of a gun unless they upgraded it. To which, they want more money. The problem is that a lot of people don't want to pay the price stores ask. I only know of one shop around here that currently buys back guns, and they charge nearly the cost of a new gun for the used gun if it's not tuned.

 

Most sites around here don't rent guns, anyway. Too much of a hassle with the little ones that don't know any better try to use the rental guns as hammers. Fixing every single gun every single week was just getting too bothersome. Site runners here do have lives during the week, leaving no time to repair the rental guns.

 

If it burnt out it would have been because the motor was drawing too much current because of a jam, or a short.

Now, you can give me a jammed gearbox, and I can open it and everything will be ok, because the action of opening it will have cleared the jam.

I'm sorry, but I don't have a very high opinion of someone's technical ability if they claim they're really good at tuning guns but can't work that one out.

 

Even after the tech looked at it, and tested everything in a test gun, everything but the trigger unit was perfectly fine. Besides, he doesn't claim that he's good at it either, everyone else knows he is.

 

As I said, ACM manufacturers are very concerned about their reputations, hence why they make constant improvements.

The JG G36C was tried with metal bushes, but it was found the nylon ones were better so they returned to them.

 

I fail to see how nylon bushes are better, but okay then.

 

Then get onto your supplier and find out why you're getting so many duff ones.

 

It's not my call to do that. I can ask, but can guarantee the response will be along the lines of, "If the customers don't have a problem with it, we don't have a problem with it. If we don't have product for the customer, we'll all be out of a job."

 

Saving $160 is free money, that's the thing. So you may have to take it back to the shop, or over here, have it collected by the shop.

Now, you can spend that $160 on the same gun by a different manufacturer and still have to return it.

 

Yeah, that's never going to happen. Corporations here are too greedy to have the consumers' best interests in mind. Individual shops would go out of business if they even tried it.

 

Thousands, you'd have to do all the R&D for TM to develop a M249 body and gearbox etc

The CA that it's a copy of on the other hand retails at £575 (approx $1150), while the A&K retails at £200 (approx $400)

So with the $130 extra that's $530 against $1150.

 

Erm, I'll just read Pablo's post, considering you already gave me comparisons earlier, and that the chance an A&K M249 costing $400 here is like a snowball's chance in Hell.

 

Gun cost: £200($400)

 

WHAT?! That's ridiculous, that's more than ANY Marui here.

 

Added bits: £45($90) + £20($40)'s worth of bits I had = £65(130USD)

 

Added bits that were actually necessary for the gun to operate effectively = £10's worth of shimming and grease. The hop could have been fixed with all sorts of things that anyone in a position to buy an airsoft gun could easily optain for free so I don't count that.

 

So I spent 32% of the cost of the gun on upgrades BUT only 0.5% (£10) of the cost of the gun was necessary to make the gun work effectively. I'd say that's pretty good.

 

Goodness, it's no wonder I'm so confused. I don't think I'd ever survive in the UK if I had to spend that much money on a gun...

 

All of which is beside the point: you can tune a clone.

 

As I said, I'm sorry I left it so open, I meant that it wouldn't be cheap. But considering what you're telling me about the cost of a CLONE, I'm agreeing with your point of view on clones being a good alternative for you guys. There's no way I can change your point of view considering that single fact, and I think that's going to kill my argument with you Brits.

 

But that's still not the case with America. Just today, a guy came in and bought $350 worth of parts to work on his clones; $175 on each. Parts included were barrels, springs, batteries, piston/cylinder heads, bushings, shims, motors, and hop buckings. Considering the guns only cost him $125 each, you see where I'm going with this. He's spending $300 to get a gun running reliably (no, he didn't get his guns from the shop, he got them online), whereas he could have spent only $280 on a TM M4 2nd Gen with a battery and charger, and having no reliability issues out of the box.

[Xaccers]

One shop costs less than the other.

 

Simple, the shop offering batteries with their guns is making less profit per gun sold than the one which just sells guns.

The battery offering shop however is likely to do more business by being cheaper and offering a better deal.

It's called marketting.

 

Imagine each shop has to make $1500 a week to cover their costs.

Shop A sells just guns making $150 profit per gun, shop B sells guns and batteries making only $100 profit per gun.

Shop A needs to sell 10 guns to cover their costs, while shop B needs to sell 15 guns.

Because the deal is so good at shop B, they have no problem selling 5 more guns a week than shop A so are able to cover their costs.

 

Usually, a person doesn't try to get rid of a gun unless they upgraded it. To which, they want more money. The problem is that a lot of people don't want to pay the price stores ask. I only know of one shop around here that currently buys back guns, and they charge nearly the cost of a new gun for the used gun if it's not tuned.

 

Sorry, I thought you said there were loads of failures and returns on ACM guns? Is that not actually the case, and in reality only a small proportion of the ACM's sold are returned?

 

Most sites around here don't rent guns, anyway. Too much of a hassle with the little ones that don't know any better try to use the rental guns as hammers. Fixing every single gun every single week was just getting too bothersome. Site runners here do have lives during the week, leaving no time to repair the rental guns.

 

Do they not teach good business sense in the US?

I buy a returned gun for £60 and fix it, normally it's just an electrical issue anyway, like a wire has come off the motor.

3 rentals at £20 and I've paid for the gun. Any further rentals are pure profit.

3 more rentals and I can buy another returned gun and fix it.

Another 3 rentals of both and I'm £60 in profit again, time to buy another gun and fix it.

Now I have 3 guns, every time I rent them I'm making £60, I take that as profit, or I could use it to buy another gun each weekend to meet the demand for rentals.

Say the site needs 5 rentals every week, that's £100 a week ($200) in my pocket. Because I did a proper job of fixing the guns and I know what I'm doing, there are only likely to be failures when the guns are misused (fallen on, fired after a jam etc), but it's unlikely that will happen to more than one gun, and if it does, I can use the £100 from that weekend's rentals to get parts to repair it.

 

Even after the tech looked at it, and tested everything in a test gun, everything but the trigger unit was perfectly fine. Besides, he doesn't claim that he's good at it either, everyone else knows he is.

 

Of course. As I said, you can give me a jammed gearbox, and by opening it I clear the jam, and therefore the gearbox works fine.

Happens to V3 gearboxes more often than V2, but most gearboxes can suffer from it, it's just easier to clear on a V3 because the ARL and bevel gear are so easy to get to.

You claimed he was good at tuning, but sorry, someone who's good at tuning should be able to replace a trigger unit in next to no time, and understand why it failed.

 

I fail to see how nylon bushes are better, but okay then.

 

Less binding than metal bushes can be.

They will normally wear out quicker than metal bushes, but can cause less friction.

One of the reasons why it's advisable to replace TM bushes with metal is because TM use a rather soft nylon, and it's better to only go into the gearbox once, than need to go in again in 2-3 years time.

Also, at UK fps levels there's not a huge amount of stress on the bushes.

 

It's not my call to do that. I can ask, but can guarantee the response will be along the lines of, "If the customers don't have a problem with it, we don't have a problem with it. If we don't have product for the customer, we'll all be out of a job."

 

So is the issue real or is it in your perception of things? If ACM failures are as high and often as you say, surely customers would have a problem with it?

 

Yeah, that's never going to happen. Corporations here are too greedy to have the consumers' best interests in mind. Individual shops would go out of business if they even tried it.

 

You've missed the point. By buying product A for $160 less than product B, but you may have a higher chance of having to take A back for an exchange, by saving $160, you're basically being paid $160 for maybe having to take A back.

See what I mean?

 

 

WHAT?! That's ridiculous, that's more than ANY Marui here.

 

TM don't do a M249! The A&K is a copy of the CA M249, and that is what you must compare it to.

A $400 gun compared with a $1150 gun.

 

But that's still not the case with America. Just today, a guy came in and bought $350 worth of parts to work on his clones; $175 on each. Parts included were barrels, springs, batteries, piston/cylinder heads, bushings, shims, motors, and hop buckings. Considering the guns only cost him $125 each, you see where I'm going with this. He's spending $300 to get a gun running reliably (no, he didn't get his guns from the shop, he got them online), whereas he could have spent only $280 on a TM M4 2nd Gen with a battery and charger, and having no reliability issues out of the box.

 

Sorry, but you don't need to replace all those parts to make a ACM reliable, they're reliable out the box or they're broken.

If they're broken, you exchange for another one.

If you bought them from somewhere which won't do an exchange, then more fool you.

[Pablo]

As Xaccers said, the clone M249 Mk1 -in fact all versions - are $400 here.

 

The CA M249 Mk1 it's cloned from is $1200, the Mk2 is $1300 and the Para is $1400 at my local store.

 

With everything I did to my M249 (much of which I didn't need to do, I just wanted to have a tweak) it still cost less than half the price of a CA.

 

Just in case this helps, a TM M14 in wood finish is $560 in the same store. 6000 BB's cost $20.

 

All I'm saying is that clones aren't all bad and can sometimes be better (in terms of performance) than high-brand models for a reasonable amount of work and cost.

[Connery]

Simple, the shop offering batteries with their guns is making less profit per gun sold than the one which just sells guns.

The battery offering shop however is likely to do more business by being cheaper and offering a better deal.

It's called marketting.

 

Imagine each shop has to make $1500 a week to cover their costs.

Shop A sells just guns making $150 profit per gun, shop B sells guns and batteries making only $100 profit per gun.

Shop A needs to sell 10 guns to cover their costs, while shop B needs to sell 15 guns.

Because the deal is so good at shop B, they have no problem selling 5 more guns a week than shop A so are able to cover their costs.

 

Really has nothing to do with the debate, but sure, that pretty much sums up what I was saying.

 

Sorry, I thought you said there were loads of failures and returns on ACM guns? Is that not actually the case, and in reality only a small proportion of the ACM's sold are returned?

 

Sorry, I forgot I'm dealing with someone intelligent enough to pick apart my posts. I guess the only other way I can compare it is to say that I've not seen a single TM returned due to damage, whereas I've seen a very good portion of the clones come in for some kind of work/refund/exchange, usually the first one.

 

Do they not teach good business sense in the US?

 

They do, just that people have no time to repair them. Like I said, the sites we have are run by people who have jobs during the week.

 

You claimed he was good at tuning, but sorry, someone who's good at tuning should be able to replace a trigger unit in next to no time, and understand why it failed.

 

It was the only gun that failed on him. He did the same things to more than two v.3 guns at least twice per gun, and had zero problems.

 

Less binding than metal bushes can be.

They will normally wear out quicker than metal bushes, but can cause less friction.

One of the reasons why it's advisable to replace TM bushes with metal is because TM use a rather soft nylon, and it's better to only go into the gearbox once, than need to go in again in 2-3 years time.

Also, at UK fps levels there's not a huge amount of stress on the bushes.

 

Ah, well for UK FPS levels, that's all fine and dandy. But remember, the American mindset is 'the more power, the better.'

 

So is the issue real or is it in your perception of things? If ACM failures are as high and often as you say, surely customers would have a problem with it?

 

The issue is real. Just remember, we're talking about more stress on guns here in America than in the UK, and we're also talking about different spending habits.

 

You've missed the point. By buying product A for $160 less than product B, but you may have a higher chance of having to take A back for an exchange, by saving $160, you're basically being paid $160 for maybe having to take A back.

See what I mean?

 

I do, but I'd be really ###### if product A didn't work and ask for product B instead. I would then most likely attempt to sue company A for shoddy quality and false advertisement, but then fail miserably due to company A not being in America.

 

TM don't do a M249! The A&K is a copy of the CA M249, and that is what you must compare it to.

A $400 gun compared with a $1150 gun.

 

Wasn't quoting you that time. Like I've said, you've already given me comparisons (M4-S), and like I've stated, the chance of an A&K M249 costing only $400 here is on par with you saying your Xantia is the absolute worst car ever made and that you'd never be caught behind the wheel of one. At the lowest, an A$K M249 is $700 around these parts. I'd just spend the extra $350 on a gun that I know will be reliable out of the box. That being said though, I'm not a SAW kind of guy.

 

Sorry, but you don't need to replace all those parts to make a ACM reliable, they're reliable out the box or they're broken.

If they're broken, you exchange for another one.

If you bought them from somewhere which won't do an exchange, then more fool you.

 

Like I said, US = FAR more stress on the guns than you guys. Thus, the gun breaks a lot faster. The DOA ones get repaired, the ones that are sold and die come back for repair. The US doesn't have the limits that you guys do, so everyone considers under 400fps not good enough. I know of one group that doesn't even have limits, so there are guys running around on the field with 600fps+ guns.

 

Kinda glad I noticed this thread in the first place. I've been meaning to have a civil debate to defend TM since the introduction of ACM/JG, I just could never do it without wanting to tell the other party to stuff the insults. Thanks Xaccers.

 

EDIT: Speelingk.

[Pablo]

Hehe, they'd have loved my M249 at one point then - I accidentally had it firing at 440fps at 24rps

[Duckling]

I accidentally had it firing at 440fps at 24rps

Sounds like the comon danish M4.

 

[Pablo]

Slightly illegal though, hence me imediately dismantling it and sorting it out.

[transist]

Sounds like the comon danish M4.

Ok. We get it already- you guys are crazy bastards.