Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[cafemondo]

it only takes about less than $50 to get a TM to shoot at ACM levels

 

you have to upgrade the original to compete with the copy thats progress

[snorkelman]

and at which point most of the advantages of 'out of the box TM reliability' go straight out the window to be replaced by 'how decent a job was made of the upgrades'.

 

 

preferred weapon, maybe. cheaper? i don't think so.

i'd like somebody to prove that ACMs are cheaper.

 

dboys AKSU - 95 bucks 77 for shipping = 172 dollars landed from HK plus vat n duty 202 dollars 100 quid plus parcel force charge 113.50

 

Tightbore barrel 12 quid

steel bushings 5 quid

replacement piston head 10 quid

replacement soft hop rubber 4 quid

some varnish for the wood grips 3 quid

good clean

shortened spring

mag catch filed to suit the mags I prefer to use

 

total cost 144 quid and an hour or so of work once landed at my door. Add a few quid on if you want to replace rather than chop the spring, take a few quid off if you want to retain the piston head (which is actually OK) and just replace its oring with a decent viton one.

 

TM beta spetz 206 dollars 77 dollars shipping 283 dollars plus vat n duty = 339 dollars = 164 quid plus 13 quid parcel force fee = 177.50

no steel body, no steel stock, no alloy trunnions no wood grips 6mm nylon bushings and a bone stock barrel.

 

Even at current UK discounted price of 145 quid and allowing for free shipping its still a quid more, still lacks those attributes and still needs a battery (the stick battery supplied with the dboys is actually OK - particularly when asked to crank over a box fitted with a UK power levels spring).

[Pablo]

Grassing up Pablo

 

Shhh.

 

Yeah, I can be a grumpy old Hector.

 

If sneakiness is your bag, then fine - doesn't matter what gun you've got if you're immediately behind them. For those of us on a budget who want guns with decent accuracy at range, clones will often be a better starting point than a TM. Ultimately it comes down to buyer's choice depending on several factors, such as:

 

How they play.

What they want the gun to do.

How much they can afford.

Their moral standpoint/class perception on clones.

 

Anyway, thread title changed again - hopefully a bit clearer now

[p.briden]

I've been an observer of the airsoft scene for some time through the power of 'teh interweb' and am only just involved in the process of buying my first gun and kit and attending a buttload of skirmishes. From my point of veiw it is very strange that in the space of what seems like only a few months there has been an absolute frenzy over these chinese clones, they've gone from being something most 'softers cross the street to avoid, to being nearly everyone's favourite 'am best gnu'. To me it still feels a little early to be singing the praises of these clones so doggedly. As a newbie and a prospective buyer I can certainly see the appeal in saving money on such an expensive sport/hobby (£99 for a M249!!) but I find it very hard to be so sure of anything sub-Mauri. Its not just the whole 'made in china' syndrome either as we all know that there's alot of good stuff coming from CA these days (most guys at my local site swear by them). I think on some level its a question of 'trust'. I was looking at a budget airsoft site the other day which sold not only the clone AEGs but also clone gear including face and eye protection and I asked myself; would I trust that £10 set of china clone Bolle X800 goggles over my £30-40 pair of genuine Bolle X800s? I'll let you guys decide for yourselves on that one.

 

My main concern as a prospective buyer of clones is the extent of their compatibility with aftermarket parts, both internal and external, from what many people have said it is apparent that nearly all of them have at least some compatability, but how far does it go? Certain parts might fit a TM but what if they don't fit a clone? I'd be pretty ticked off if I got a clone and found I couldn't fit a metal body kit on it, for example. Alot of people are really pumped about the internals and performance of clones but to me it is also really important that they are either externally solid or can be modified and accessorised to compensate for possible shoddy externals.

[Catman]

While I'm happy to buy clone guns I have a hard time recommending them to newbies. Clone guns are shoddily put together and are pretty much guaranteed to need some attention out of the box - if not a full strip-down to make sure it's all been put together correctly and given enough grease in the gearbox. Hell even some veteran airsofters are timid about taking a gearbox apart. They also need a thorough barrel clean as they're covered in firth from the factory. Not to mention the last clone I bought came loosely assembled and needed screws and parts tigthening up. Plus theres the issue of FPS; as a lot of UK sites have 328fps limits most of these clones shoot above that level meaning you immediately have to downgrade it - my last clone was clocking in at 425fps which is a secton 5 firearm in the UK!

 

Once you've spent a good hour or so going over your newly bought clone it's great but you have to know what you're doing.

[Xaccers]

my last clone was clocking in at 425fps which is a secton 5 firearm in the UK!

 

Only if it was proven to be lethal, which it hasn't, and given the number of players over the world who use AEGs at that level and above and haven't been injured enough to consider them lethal, it's not likely to be.

Depending on where you live, the local police may consider it a breach of section 5 which would cause them to investigate and test it, not for fps, but for lethality, or you may be in an area where the police have decided as it fires plastic pellets it's not going to be lethal.

This is one of the interesting things the VCR act has brought to light.

 

As with any purchase, people should do their research first and be aware of the potential pitfalls, such as looking at a gun with a V2 gearbox and finding out that eventually the front of that gearbox is likely to crack off, or that V3 gearboxes are prone to selector contact issues, and gear jams if weak batteries are used, but are easier to clear.

Thankfully, we've got consumer legislation which protects the buyer if they get a faulty item.

Another reason to advise purchasers to buy from the UK rather than risk importing a lemon just to save £5 after tax and duty.

I've seen shoddily put together main name guns, and unreliable main name guns, even TMs.

One thing is clear, you don't always get what you pay for, most of the time with the big names, you get less than what you're paying for through their inflated prices, and sometimes with the ACM you get less than what you pay for because you were one of the few unlucky ones to get a lemon, so you exchange it and get more than you paid for.

 

As for recomending them, it should be on a gun by gun basis, for instance, if someone's playing at a 330-350fps field, I'll recommend them the JG G36C, if they're happy to have someone down grade it, I'd still recommend them the JG G36C for lower fps sites, it's that well built it wipes the floor with TM's offering, and only gets beaten by CA because of CA's body finish and the ability to get the G36 and K as standard, though someone could fit a kit to the JG and still save money, the finish just wouldn't be as nice as the CA.

Similarly with the JG AUG, despite not liking the look of it, if someone wanted an AUG, I'd direct them to JG

Armalites, maybe, personally I'd try to steer them towards a better gun no matter what, such as the JG G36C

[snorkelman]

which is why theres always a place for TM amongst those who have no intention of upgrading (after which ability to use straight out the box becomes moot given the knowledge required to upgrade their TM will be on par with knowledge required to downgrade a clone) Much same as could be argued for build yourself PCs from a bundle of components versus Compaq IBM assembled machines 10 years or so ago (when having a basic knowledge allowed for a big saving when comparing like for like end results).

 

However I wouldnt extend that to many of the other brands that for whatever reason (generally 8 parts snobbery 1 part reality 1 part price) have escaped the classification as 'clones'

 

VFC AKSU - both mine shot in the 350 range and first of the two had a bolt that would happily fall inside the gun, both had rear sight pins that were too loose and both had gearboxes on par with many current clones in terms of components used and levels of grease applied (VFC subcontracted the gearboxes out) External finish certainly better but 200 quid better? mmmm nah.

 

guarder AKSU and AKS74 - a collection of parts in a box with bugger all decent instructions some grub screws and a need to gut and mod TM internals to complete it

 

star L85 - a collection of grub screws alread attached to a gun with brass filings inside the gearbox that needed cleaned out from day one

 

Top MP40 - shook its bellows based system apart in the space of one locap mag even with a PGC kit it was never as reliable or accurate as the AGM MP40 has been straight out of the box

 

CA M4 carbines - shot 338/339 out of the box so strictly speaking too high for 328FPS site limits unless folks were being cut a little leeway (and a front end that had as much slack needing taken up in the delta ring assembly as the dboys M4 I bought for a look-see a month or two ago)

 

G&G gr300 - couldnt fault this one (I got a good one) FPS just nice for UK use out of the box and well enough put together (though the paintwork was no better than the dboys M4 and way too easy to scratch)

[Walton_County_Firefighter]

Because if all he does is want to shoot, then why does it have to be airsoft? If he wants to shoot other people so badly, then he should join the Marines.

I already did, I recommend it if you are a psychopathic person with a death wish. I know I was, now I shoot people with plastic stuff and not hot metal stuff. Plus I no longer like sand or the beach. Thanks Bush.

[chapel]

you have to upgrade the original to compete with the copy thats progress

well, that's if you want/need more power. hmmm... POWER actually, the idea isn't on what's inside the AEG as much as which one would last longer. everybody will tinker with the insides eventually.

 

yes, i can & will play with a stock TM. no, i wouldn't really do it; i'd change springs right away, 'cuz all the other guys here shoot above the 450Fps mark, and i'm pretty happy with my 330/350 Fps rating.

 

and at which point most of the advantages of 'out of the box TM reliability' go straight out the window to be replaced by 'how decent a job was made of the upgrades'.

that's true in any case, but then the durability & quality of parts come into question. in some cases, even the high end stuff can let you down too.

 

total cost 144 quid and an hour or so of work once landed at my door. Add a few quid on if you want to replace rather than chop the spring, take a few quid off if you want to retain the piston head (which is actually OK) and just replace its oring with a decent viton one.

 

TM beta spetz 206 dollars 77 dollars shipping 283 dollars plus vat n duty = 339 dollars = 164 quid plus 13 quid parcel force fee = 177.50

no steel body, no steel stock, no alloy trunnions no wood grips 6mm nylon bushings and a bone stock barrel.

 

Even at current UK discounted price of 145 quid and allowing for free shipping its still a quid more, still lacks those attributes and still needs a battery (the stick battery supplied with the dboys is actually OK - particularly when asked to crank over a box fitted with a UK power levels spring).

thanks for running the numbers.

 

yes, they are cheaper at the start, though consider when it breaks, you'll spend about half of that just to fix it.

at that point, the 30 quid difference becomes insignificant, as you would have spent for 1.5-2 guns to have 1 working.

 

to be fair, we can't get replacements as easy as you guys do. so the math may work differently

it might actually be cheaper for you guys over there. over here, if you were lucky enough to get a lemon, you're stuck with it.

[snorkelman]

that's true in any case, but then the durability & quality of parts come into question. in some cases, even the high end stuff can let you down too.

 

but as the upgrade parts going in both are the same its still moot they dont suddenly become better upgrade parts because the gun thats been gutted to fit them in was originally a TM, and there is still the same requirement to put it together properly reshim etc whichever they're fitted to

 

yes, they are cheaper at the start, though consider when it breaks, you'll spend about half of that just to fix it.

at that point, the 30 quid difference becomes insignificant, as you would have spent for 1.5-2 guns to have 1 working.

 

consider when what breaks? The above numbers already included shaking out the weak points, the gears are steel the bushings will be steel etc The remainder of the parts weren't left in place to save money they were left in because there is bugger all wrong with any of them.

 

Are they going to last forever? No ...but theres nothing inherently wrong with them to suggest a shorter lifespan than their out of the box TM equivs, cos if there was anything inherently wrong Id have changed them at the same time and included them in my figures.

 

I still cant see where you can come up with a blanket 'you'll need to spend half the cost of the gun when it breaks' as some sort of clone-specific problem other than the fact a clone costs significantly less than a TM to start with and thus proportionally replacement parts will be amount to a greater precentage of its over all value. By that logic a 100 dollar ferrari would cost 4 times its price to replace a worn tyre and should be avoided in favor of a 100,000 dollar one where same new tyre is only a 250th of the cost of the car...

 

Parts Im listing are ordered in from HK to UK (with some of the highest VAT and duty charges applied you're going to find), unless you stay in a country where parts are prohibited from import then theres no reason they couldnt be bought from HK at similar costs for shipping etc to any other country, as I'd pay in UK.

 

will you still find clones out there that would be a false economy to upgrade? Course you will they arent all made by same firm to same standard. But theres an ever increasing percentage of the clone market where that no longer applies and the general trend is in that direction. Not back to the days of the cyma CM021 with 18 screws holding the two halves of its clamshell together and a plasticgearbox chucking out .12s at 100 FPS

 

Buying clones isnt a case of being on a restricted budget and having to make the best of it, if I genuinely felt that TM gun X offered me a significant advantage over clone gun Y by time I'd finished with it? Id buy it simple as that.

[chapel]

dboys AKSU - 95 bucks 77 for shipping = 172 dollars landed from HK plus vat n duty 202 dollars 100 quid plus parcel force charge 113.50

Tightbore barrel 12 quid

steel bushings 5 quid

replacement piston head 10 quid

replacement soft hop rubber 4 quid

some varnish for the wood grips 3 quid

good clean

shortened spring

ok, so i left that part out. oops

 

but these parts hardly have any effect on the AEG's mechanism, except for the bushings & piston.

in most cases, you only need to replace "small stuff" which is a good thing. it really is cheaper if that's just the extent of the problem.

 

i meant to say, more serious breakages like broken mechbox, broken gears, dead motor, etc. total gut replacement (god forbid )

ok, so it's a worst-case scenario, but i've seen it happen. i've seen an ACM mechbox motor cage just break for no reason, motors burning out on the 1st go, stripped gears, etc. how much does it cost to replace an entire mechbox? maybe not all, but most of it.

 

man... we probably get that "1 lemon in a dozen" too often here

 

i guess what i'm saying is, i've seen it happen, & when it was all over, the money invested in the ACM cost more than a TM just to get it to work. having seen that 1st hand, i'd go with the TM.

 

again, the math may be entirely different due to retailer practices here.

 

Buying clones isnt a case of being on a restricted budget and having to make the best of it, if I genuinely felt that TM gun X offered me a significant advantage over clone gun Y by time I'd finished with it? Id buy it simple as that.

i think that sums up "clones vs... " pretty well. usually though, the low cost gives the excuse people need to justify the item.

from my experience, it just turns into "because it's cheaper!" or "i don't have the money for that!" weighing the benefits between brand X vs brand Y are simply ignored. oh well.

 

 

 

[snorkelman]

but these parts hardly have any effect on the AEG's mechanism, except for the bushings & piston.

in most cases, you only need to replace "small stuff" which is a good thing. it really is cheaper if that's just the extent of the problem.

 

is rather the point - those were the only bits on the gun needing any work/replacement to bring it up to scratch (and in some respects exceed the TM baseline). Everything else internally was already of decent quality (or at least no worse than a TM) which meant more of an emphasis on cosmetics/mag compatibility/hop up and barrel making up the most of the work. The only part where the jury is still out is the motor where ultimately only time will really tell

 

i meant to say, more serious breakages like broken mechbox, broken gears, dead motor, etc. total gut replacement (god forbid )

ok, so it's a worst-case scenario, but i've seen it happen. i've seen an ACM mechbox motor cage just break for no reason, motors burning out on the 1st go, stripped gears, etc. how much does it cost to replace an entire mechbox? maybe not all, but most of it.

 

35 dollars to pick up another box assuming catastrophic failure of everything but as per above having stripped checked and compared parts I really dont anticipate that happening.

 

i guess what i'm saying is, i've seen it happen, & when it was all over, the money invested in the ACM cost more than a TM just to get it to work. having seen that 1st hand, i'd go with the TM.

 

Aye that brings us back to 'out of the box' TM benefit of pick it up and go with reasonable confidence of it continuing to do so (new user inflicted issues aside). Versus clones where unless you are willing to strip and check it you might have an issue lurking that wouldn't take long to rear its head.

 

What I would say on that though is that its getting less common than in the past. On the guns Ive stripped recently I could quite happily have popped them back together without changing a thing (other than the overly hot springs from a UK legal POV) and lived with them as they were. The grease in the boxes might have been a bit too liberal for my tastes, o-ring on the piston head not optimal, the shimming pretty basic and I could see a good few thousand rounds needing put thru the dboys ones to shoot out the ###### that was left in the cylinders lol But I didnt spot anything that would have given someone a nasty surprise if they'd taken delivery of the ones I'd got sent and hadn't opened and checked the box before skirmishing them. If things continue in the direction they have done then I wouldn't expect it to be too long before folks can start to treat them as a pick up and go choice, 6 months to a year from now the only issue left will be the buyers confidence in that.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Snorkelman, that was a series of excellent posts that perfectly illustrated the points that I've been trying to make for a long time. I've always thought that TM was heavily overrated. Here in the States where we don't have the same restrictions as you have in the UK, at many of the ops that I go to, the guns are all shooting pretty hot, and everyone's AEG is capable of 150-200 foot accuracy. There's not a single stock TM that can compete effectively when everyone's got upgraded TM's, CA, ICS, G&P, G&G, VFC, etc. So, it becomes an upgrading game.

 

Now, it might have been true a year ago that you'd have to replace more parts on a clone than on a TM. However, that's no longer true in most cases. Consider: many ACM's these days come with full metal externals, which saves you around 100 dollars (around 40-50 quid) on a metal receiver kit. Dboys guns all come with reinforced gearboxes, and CYMA gearboxes are on par with TM gearboxes. CYMA guns are coming with stock metal bushings as well, which beats out TM. The gear sets are steel, and if you want your TM gears to hold up under the stress of upgrade parts, chances are you'd need to replace the gears for a TM also. The cylinders are fine, so you wouldn't need to replace them in either gun. Cylinder heads are typically weaker in clones than in TM, so you might have to shell out 15 quid or so on a new cylinder head. However, again, those issues really are only true of A&K, JLS, and WELL. CYMA, JG, and Dboys all have fine stock cylinder heads. Tappet plates rarely break, the trigger mechs are perfectly capable, and anti-reversal latches rarely break as well, although I had a G&G ARL break on me. The piston and spring guide would need to be replaced on either a clone or a TM. TM guns are usually better shimmed and greased, but that's very inexpensive, and balanced on the clone by not having to buy metal bushings. The piston head you'd need to replace, and for many clones, you don't have to replace the spring, which saves you about 7-10 quid. As for the motors, well, CYMA guns at least often come with TM EG1000 clones, which have been reliable so far.

 

So, that's virtually everything in the gearbox. For the best brands of ACM's, including CYMA (the best stock ones IMO), Dboys (solid upgrade platforms), JG (solid, but not the best in any category), and ARMY (two good guns, at least), you can get virtually any model of gun, and they're all great upgrade platforms. For most of them, if you have to replace a part, you'd have to replace it on the TM, and they're easily 100 cheaper.

 

That's true of some sniper rifles also. Take the BAR-10; I've upgraded mine fully with zero trigger, teflon cylinder, high pressure piston, metal bearing spring guide, silent cylinder head, ineball bucking, and tightbore. Every single part that made the TM theoretically more reliable has been replaced. Thus, the difference between my gun and a comparable TM upgrade platform is that mine was about 50 quid cheaper, and came with a nice scope and scope mount. So, I've saved money overall, and I've got a gun that can outshoot any but the very best upgraded rifles. There is NO advantage to getting a TM if you're going to replace all of the internals like I did; and, if you want it to be 100 meter capable, you HAVE to replace everything, even in a TM. Even if you don't, the stock JG sears and cylinder can support just as much as the stock TM parts. I've stress tested mine, and looked at the quality of the parts, and the JG doesn't come off badly at all.

 

For those of you that think that TM, at least, is a better upgrade platform than a clone, you need to get with the times. Technology has changed, and TM has not come out well. If you want a truly better gun, I'd get a G&G or a KWA, personally. The only advantage TM has over the other high-ends is that they still have the best hopup units. But new hopups are cheap, and you can get a fully upgraded high-end based on a G&G or KWA for less than 400, while a TM based platform would cost over 600. So, even if you're not going to get a clone, TM still isn't nearly as good as people make it out to be. TM was great, but times change, and TM hasn't. They're still reliable weapons, but so is just about everything else, and TM lacks many of the features of a new gen G&G or CA, and really comes off poorly in comparison to a KWA.

[Connery]

Snorkelman, that was a series of excellent posts that perfectly illustrated the points that I've been trying to make for a long time. I've always thought that TM was heavily overrated. Here in the States where we don't have the same restrictions as you have in the UK, at many of the ops that I go to, the guns are all shooting pretty hot, and everyone's AEG is capable of 150-200 foot accuracy. There's not a single stock TM that can compete effectively when everyone's got upgraded TM's, CA, ICS, G&P, G&G, VFC, etc. So, it becomes an upgrading game.

 

Then why can I still run out there with my bone-stock P90 and effectively screw over the other team?

 

Now, it might have been true a year ago that you'd have to replace more parts on a clone than on a TM. However, that's no longer true in most cases. Consider: many ACM's these days come with full metal externals, which saves you around 100 dollars (around 40-50 quid) on a metal receiver kit. Dboys guns all come with reinforced gearboxes, and CYMA gearboxes are on par with TM gearboxes. CYMA guns are coming with stock metal bushings as well, which beats out TM. The gear sets are steel, and if you want your TM gears to hold up under the stress of upgrade parts, chances are you'd need to replace the gears for a TM also. The cylinders are fine, so you wouldn't need to replace them in either gun. Cylinder heads are typically weaker in clones than in TM, so you might have to shell out 15 quid or so on a new cylinder head. However, again, those issues really are only true of A&K, JLS, and WELL. CYMA, JG, and Dboys all have fine stock cylinder heads. Tappet plates rarely break, the trigger mechs are perfectly capable, and anti-reversal latches rarely break as well, although I had a G&G ARL break on me. The piston and spring guide would need to be replaced on either a clone or a TM. TM guns are usually better shimmed and greased, but that's very inexpensive, and balanced on the clone by not having to buy metal bushings. The piston head you'd need to replace, and for many clones, you don't have to replace the spring, which saves you about 7-10 quid. As for the motors, well, CYMA guns at least often come with TM EG1000 clones, which have been reliable so far.

 

While that's all fine and dandy, I've never once seen a CYMA gun fit a magazine flush in the gun, and I've never seen a Dboys gun keep a mag in the gun out of the box. Of all the clone motors I've seen, none of them could stand the use after a few months of use, and ###### out. And if I hear about one more ACM M14 with reversed wiring, I will laugh heartily. Again.

 

Also, I'd love it if you could show me a test of an ACM against a TM, and show me the gearboxes. I've heard of too many ACM ones crack far before the TM ones have. Actual numbers from a third party not biased against either, please.

 

Besides, pistons on TM guns are extremely durable. I've only seen them strip if they're extremely abused. I've got a gun shooting about 380FPS that had a stock piston in it until about a month ago, when I decided to Super Core it.

 

So, that's virtually everything in the gearbox. For the best brands of ACM's, including CYMA (the best stock ones IMO), Dboys (solid upgrade platforms), JG (solid, but not the best in any category), and ARMY (two good guns, at least), you can get virtually any model of gun, and they're all great upgrade platforms. For most of them, if you have to replace a part, you'd have to replace it on the TM, and they're easily 100 cheaper.

 

A part being $100 cheaper? Where are you getting your stuff, I want them to have to pay me $90 so that I'll buy a set of bushings.

 

Or, if you meant that the gun is easily $100 cheaper, let someone who doesn't know jack about what they're doing have it as their first gun and don't let them open up the gearbox.

 

I can use this example because it's exactly how everyone here is. Only a select few actually open up their own guns, simply because, "Oh, I don't need to take my gun apart, the technician at the shop that is twenty minutes from my house can do it, or the technician at the shop thirty minutes from my house can do it."

 

That's true of some sniper rifles also. Take the BAR-10; I've upgraded mine fully with zero trigger, teflon cylinder, high pressure piston, metal bearing spring guide, silent cylinder head, ineball bucking, and tightbore. Every single part that made the TM theoretically more reliable has been replaced. Thus, the difference between my gun and a comparable TM upgrade platform is that mine was about 50 quid cheaper, and came with a nice scope and scope mount. So, I've saved money overall, and I've got a gun that can outshoot any but the very best upgraded rifles. There is NO advantage to getting a TM if you're going to replace all of the internals like I did; and, if you want it to be 100 meter capable, you HAVE to replace everything, even in a TM. Even if you don't, the stock JG sears and cylinder can support just as much as the stock TM parts. I've stress tested mine, and looked at the quality of the parts, and the JG doesn't come off badly at all.

 

Can't argue it because I haven't seen a JG BAR-10 yet, nor have I heard of anybody with one.

 

But I've heard the ACM version is a piece of *beep* from the owner. All he wanted to do was save a few bucks, now he has a gun that shoots wildly in all directions.

 

For those of you that think that TM, at least, is a better upgrade platform than a clone, you need to get with the times. Technology has changed, and TM has not come out well. If you want a truly better gun, I'd get a G&G or a KWA, personally. The only advantage TM has over the other high-ends is that they still have the best hopup units. But new hopups are cheap, and you can get a fully upgraded high-end based on a G&G or KWA for less than 400, while a TM based platform would cost over 600. So, even if you're not going to get a clone, TM still isn't nearly as good as people make it out to be. TM was great, but times change, and TM hasn't. They're still reliable weapons, but so is just about everything else, and TM lacks many of the features of a new gen G&G or CA, and really comes off poorly in comparison to a KWA.

 

Unfortunately, the only KWA guns are their M4 and G36C, and even then, the M4 has a proprietary gearbox, so if you're like most of the enthusiasts here, you can't fit your awesome tan Marine body, or your HurricanE 416 kit to it. I've only heard of one good G&G, and even then, nobody carries it around here, because of the horrible reputation that G&G has. CA I've heard has gotten better, but I've seen someone try to up the FPS on their SCAR, and just couldn't get it pushing past 320 with a Guarder SP120, no sealing issues or anything, everything was done correctly. As for KWA, there's no argument about it being awesome, but if I just can't put a 'correct' body on it, I'll stick with my PTW.

[zentaurus]

he he he . . . i was thinking that my post was just a parting shot

 

too many posts to quote one by one so just a summary:

 

@ viper: while i have not owned a TM . . . yet . . . or a CA, i have played with a great many, and the only one i intend to have and keep is the P90RD mainly cos i truly love that weapon and am a rabid FN fan too. well . . . also cos no ACM P90 RD has come out and the ACM TRs are POS. next might be the FAMAS cos i'm planning on making a Seburo MN23 SXC and the only ACM FAMAS is, again, a POS.

 

it is also not true that we flips treat our ACMs with great care. on the contrary, we make it a point to abuse them -- and at highly upgraded levels. 500 is very common; 700 is considered easily achievable if you can afford the price. if the old ACMgames board was still extant, i'd invite you to visit to see the extent of the mods and upgrades we've done to ACMs. yes, even to the 2nd gen PGBs some peeps made those old PGBs go 400+

 

if you check this out, you might get an idea of what we have done to get the confidence to defend ACM products, especially at the state they are in now.

 

so yes, i'd definitely still go with snork, and xaccers, and crimsonfalcon -- even if i concede the point that high-enders are initially of better quality (and some of this is debatable ) than the ACM products, over the long-term the ACM still has better value for the money. especially if you upgrade for efficiency, performance, or durability.

 

however, if you are a player who prefers to pick up your replica just before you go to a game and then just drop it into a corner when you are done with it then, by all means, go get a high ender. i'd heartily encourage you to do it. and may the airsoft gods be with you when something breaks.

 

cheers,

zT

 

oh, almost forgot: salamat sa compliment, master rambo .

[Connery]

while i have not owned a TM . . . yet . . . or a CA, i have played with a great many, and the only one i intend to have and keep is the P90RD mainly cos i truly love that weapon and am a rabid FN fan too. well . . . also cos no ACM P90 RD has come out and the ACM TRs are POS. next might be the FAMAS cos i'm planning on making a Seburo MN23 SXC and the only ACM FAMAS is, again, a POS.

 

Then it's still just a matter of opinion for you. Buy a TM and upgrade it the same as at least one of your ACM guns. Put all the same parts in it, etc. If you don't literally build an all new gun and have zero stock parts left, then tell me which one breaks first.

 

If you don't have a single stock part, then I'll laugh at you for not just building one from the ground up.

 

it is also not true that we flips treat our ACMs with great care. on the contrary, we make it a point to abuse them -- and at highly upgraded levels. 500 is very common; 700 is considered easily achievable if you can afford the price. if the old ACMgames board was still extant, i'd invite you to visit to see the extent of the mods and upgrades we've done to ACMs. yes, even to the 2nd gen PGBs some peeps made those old PGBs go 400+

 

And how long have they lasted? I've seen 600+ TM guns last years, whereas the only person that tried that with a JG had his gun die, and right fast that one.

 

so yes, i'd definitely still go with snork, and xaccers, and crimsonfalcon -- even if i concede the point that high-enders are initially of better quality (and some of this is debatable ) than the ACM products, over the long-term the ACM still has better value for the money. especially if you upgrade for efficiency, performance, or durability.

 

however, if you are a player who prefers to pick up your replica just before you go to a game and then just drop it into a corner when you are done with it then, by all means, go get a high ender. i'd heartily encourage you to do it. and may the airsoft gods be with you when something breaks.

 

Considering all the people I know put their guns on display when they're not using them, I think it's safe to say we're better off with guns that look better, let alone outperform clones.

[Donut]

Well, seems like most of the points are covered, for me personally, I like ACM's just because they allow me to get different guns for cheaper prices. Though that doesn't mean I won't skip out on the "higher end" guns. I mean, I like the higher end guns because/when they are unique, so far no one has made a decent P90 clone, so I just pay up for the TM P90's and be happy with them.

Though I'd have a huge dilemma on my hand if someone do clone P90's decently

[Connery]

Yeah, you wouldn't have enough money for your dresses.

 

Oh yes, I went there.

[Donut]

That you did XD

And here I was hoping I'd try to not scare those outside of the off-topic section

 

Anyways, just read a little bit more of the thread, and lol, funny someone should mention G&G and sucking. My neighbor got a G&G M4 a while back, it shredded itself after a couple mags, got a replacement from warranty, 2nd one shredded itself again... but this time 2 days after the warranty...

I'm laughing at him because he wanted to save that extra money by not buying a TM and metal body, and look where he is now. Of course, I still feel a little sorry for him, just a little.

[BaggyPants]

I've never seen a Dboys gun keep a mag in the gun out of the box

 

 

There you go Now you've seen one. It also keeps the two spares I bought from eHobby in it very nicely and doesn't missfeed at all

[Xaccers]

Then it's still just a matter of opinion for you. Buy a TM and upgrade it the same as at least one of your ACM guns. Put all the same parts in it, etc. If you don't literally build an all new gun and have zero stock parts left, then tell me which one breaks first.

 

If you don't have a single stock part, then I'll laugh at you for not just building one from the ground up.

 

 

 

And how long have they lasted? I've seen 600+ TM guns last years, whereas the only person that tried that with a JG had his gun die, and right fast that one.

 

TM MP5 SD6, upgraded to 310fps, 6 months later gearbox cracked and it's front flew off, many of the threads had gone on the screws keeping the plastic body together, the hop would slowly work itself off as I fired - I could see the lever moving forward with every shot.

 

SRC M4 ABS 18 months later and it's still going strong.

2 Dboys S-system about a year old now, heavily used but no failures, just needed to tighten the s-system nuts.

ICS MP5, broken gearbox replaced with dboy's, 3 months no problems.

JG G36C, got two of these for rentals, awesome guns straight out the box, again no problems.

FN2000 not my cup of tea but only issue was the shaft of the ARL was free moving, have seen this on a few non-ACM guns, quick swap out just to be sure, still firing great, sound dampening has been added and when the silencer is fitted it's a damn quiet gun. 6 months no problems.

JG AUG, again not my cup of tea but it's firing as well as the G36Cs, people seem to like it, 2 months no problems.

D-boys M4, barrel wobble that was nearly on a par with some TMs I've been asked to fix, quick job to tighten things up and again no problems.

JG 733, only problem was down to user error when a mate fitted a solid stock without the collar, so it's stripped the thread on the stock bolt and spring guide, so that will need replacing but it's not a manufacturing issue.

Another mate has a 7 month old JG 733 still going strong despite someone sitting on it.

 

Most that needs doing is cleaning the barrels before first use and regularly afterwards, and if someone can't manage that, then they really need to sort themselves out!

 

[Connery]

Umm, okay, that doesn't really mean anything considering you're not using a TM against its direct clone (AUG vs. AUG, MP5 vs MP5, etc).

[BaggyPants]

Umm, okay, that doesn't really mean anything considering you're not using a TM against its direct clone (AUG vs. AUG, MP5 vs MP5, etc).

 

What the heck are you doing up so early? It must be about 5am over there

 

Thinking more on your point above, surely it matters not what model of copied real weapon you're comparing. An AEG is simply a gearbox, a hop unit and a barrel in a fake look-a-like rifle body. A V2 gearbox compared to another V2 gearbox is a fair comparison, no matter what the outer looks like, as is a V3 v V3 etc. In simple terms, your AEG is all about the internals, not the externals. You could wrap it in a carved out piece of wood. With this in mind, I could quite fairly compare my DBoys M4A1 to a CA33e, or any other V2 AEG. As it is, it compares frequently with a CA M4A1 on a regular basis and has yet to be found wanting.

[Connery]

What the heck are you doing up so early? It must be about 5am over there

 

It was only 10PM when I made my previous post, but now it's 2AM. Oops.

 

Thinking more on your point above, surely it matters not what model of copied real weapon you're comparing. An AEG is simply a gearbox, a hop unit and a barrel in a fake look-a-like rifle body. A V2 gearbox compared to another V2 gearbox is a fair comparison, no matter what the outer looks like, as is a V3 v V3 etc. In simple terms, your AEG is all about the internals, not the externals. You could wrap it in a carved out piece of wood. With this in mind, I could quite fairly compare my DBoys M4A1 to a CA33e, or any other V2 AEG. As it is, it compares frequently with a CA M4A1 on a regular basis and has yet to be found wanting.

 

Okay then, give me numbers. Controlled tests, third unbiased party, etc.

 

For things like plinking around the house, I have no problems with ACM guns. For actual skirmishes, I'll take a TM over an ACM any day, simply because of my experience with them all. They tend to be a bit more reliable, considering I've seen too many ACM guns stop working in the middle of the second game of the day.

[Xaccers]

It was only 10PM when I made my previous post, but now it's 2AM. Oops.

 

 

 

Okay then, give me numbers. Controlled tests, third unbiased party, etc.

 

For things like plinking around the house, I have no problems with ACM guns. For actual skirmishes, I'll take a TM over an ACM any day, simply because of my experience with them all. They tend to be a bit more reliable, considering I've seen too many ACM guns stop working in the middle of the second game of the day.

 

You're the one giving anecdotal evidence so you're in no position to demand experimental evidence

You won't even tell us how many ACM guns have been returned compared with how many are sold at your store.

I know AH get very few returns compared with the amount of stock they shift, and many of the returns are down to user error.

 

My post demonstrated 10 ACM guns that have been working without issue for up to 18 months, being heavily used.