Magpul Backup Sight (MBUS)

[Spartan452]

The PTS uses the BEST off the selves polymer they could find!!!! The ACMs are pretty poor quality compared to these.

 

Plus you get Magpul PTS trademarks, who doesn't like PTS logo in white paint slapped right in the front of the sight? These sights are DEFINIETLY worth the 90 bucks. They only cost so much since PTS makes only a few batches at a time, and also you gotta consider all the royalty fees they pay to magpul. Don't forget that those white paint trademarks cost money also, you don't see the real MBUS with those white trademarks that definietly adds to the cost.

 

I'm surprised they don't charge more for these sights...

 

You get what you pay for right?

[Vercingetorix]

I need to save mah moneis for some real steel magpul goodness.

[AnakChan]

Well how much for the RS version of MBUS (vs the PTS version)? About the ACM ones, in terms of material, I think it's probably good enough for airsoft (from what I've seen here). However, the construction/assembly's been poor. e.g. if you flip up 'n down a lot, the pivot rod falls off .

[Noveske]

The PTS line utilizes a different type of polymer, called "off-the-shelf" by a Magpul Rep.

 

That aside, as I'm sure the PTS line is of extremely high quality none-the-less, very nice rifle, Noveske. Very nice.

 

-Vic

 

Actually I was wondering this myself as I know that this is the case for most of their PTS products. However, I'm told by the PTS guys that the RS and PTS ones use the same polymer. But.... in the end, I'm wondering if it makes that much of a difference as they are, in the end, just a pair of sights and not anything which will be highly affected by the quality of plastic (the PTS plastic is pretty decent IMHO). The only thing I can think of is, heat?

[Noveske]

They do have a good look, but at $90... the eBay ones are looking better.

 

 

Are you referring to the China made ones that say MBUS on them? I've actually compared the two sets. I should post some pictures. Here are my findings:

 

-Size difference. The PTS sights are smaller than the China made. For some reason they made those China sights HUGE. Magpuls are about 3/4s the size of the China sights.

-Materials: Off-the-shelf polymer (Magpul) versus ABS (China)?? No need to say more

-Colour: China ones are lighter in colour, more like a TAN color

-Flip Mechanism: Magpuls actually FLIP. The China sights just kinda try to flip (lol), sometimes they don't even flip all the way up. Huge spring difference.

-Trademarks: Magpul PTS ones have the Magpul logo on the them and a PTS logo laser etched. The China ones have MBUS written on the top as well as some weird symbol.

-Rear sight: Magpul has 1 knob (on the right side) to adjust left/right positioning whereas the China is abedextrous (2 knobs)! The sight hole is also different. The China one uses a standard M4 L-shaped piece while the Magpul uses a different design whereby there is a piece with a smaller sight hole which fits on top of the larger sight hole (refer to the pics).

[Naveronski]

Alright then, sounds like they are pretty different.

 

I admit I don't have either and am going by the pics I see on the 'net.

 

Still though, isn't the RS version supposed to be near the price of the PTS? Why would someone spend money on a lesser product when the real one isn't much costlier?

 

Noveske, I'm not trying to troll here; I like what Magpul has done with the rest of the PTS line. However, I don't see why they're going about the sights as they are.

[Noveske]

Alright then, sounds like they are pretty different.

 

I admit I don't have either and am going by the pics I see on the 'net.

 

Still though, isn't the RS version supposed to be near the price of the PTS? Why would someone spend money on a lesser product when the real one isn't much costlier?

 

Noveske, I'm not trying to troll here; I like what Magpul has done with the rest of the PTS line. However, I don't see why they're going about the sights as they are.

 

 

I think you're right regarding the price of the RS vs PTS. Too bad we're not able to get the RS ones here. Anyone wanna send me a set?

[Spartan452]

Alright then, sounds like they are pretty different.

 

I admit I don't have either and am going by the pics I see on the 'net.

 

Still though, isn't the RS version supposed to be near the price of the PTS? Why would someone spend money on a lesser product when the real one isn't much costlier?

 

Noveske, I'm not trying to troll here; I like what Magpul has done with the rest of the PTS line. However, I don't see why they're going about the sights as they are.

 

The real steel are hard to come by, if you read about them in the real steel forums, you'll know that most of them are preordered and won't be available for some time.

 

The real steel products cost the same as the pts ones, because

 

1 - if you knew anything about manufactuering, you'd know that the more you make the cheaper it is

2 - PTS pays LOTS of royality fees

3- PTS is the only LEGAL manufactuere of magpul products, they can charge whatever they want, it is THEIR RIGHT to sell it AND ONLY THEIRS.

4- laser etching cost money

 

PTS has been charging real steel price for replica products, this case is no different.

 

The only people who would buy PTS stuff are people outside the US, since magpul can't export. You as an american have the chance to buy the real steel, but why bother when the PTS is offer such high quality replicas...

 

 

[Naveronski]

The real steel are hard to come by, if you read about them in the real steel forums, you'll know that most of them are preordered and won't be available for some time.

 

The real steel products cost the same as the pts ones, because

 

1 - if you knew anything about manufactuering, you'd know that the more you make the cheaper it is

2 - PTS pays LOTS of royality fees

3- PTS is the only LEGAL manufactuere of magpul products, they can charge whatever they want, it is THEIR RIGHT to sell it AND ONLY THEIRS.

4- laser etching cost money

 

PTS has been charging real steel price for replica products, this case is no different.

 

The only people who would buy PTS stuff are people outside the US, since magpul can't export. You as an american have the chance to buy the real steel, but why bother when the PTS is offer such high quality replicas...

I did know that they were hard to come by, but I didn't realize that Magpul couldn't export. That explains that, then.

[Pedro30]

I feel this thread is gonna turn into a PTS debate, so back lets get track...

 

Are these sights actual 1:1 replicas of the MBUS?

 

 

I've noticed in the shotshow 2009 video that the MBUS has 2 rear sights, this one only has one... And the one from this picture taken off AR15 forums

 

 

[FalloutBoy]

I got some ACM Flip Ups.

For Airsoft they are ok. For a real rifle I would not use them.

 

At the beginning they didn't flip. Some silicone oil makes the Flip faster so that you can use them as what they are built for.

 

I payed about 25,- EUR shipping included.

 

Greets

FB

 

PS: I hope you understand my english

[talon_0315]

The only people who would buy PTS stuff are people outside the US, since magpul can't export. You as an american have the chance to buy the real steel, but why bother when the PTS is offer such high quality replicas...

 

I would buy the MBUS meant for real-steel use and the abuse of violent vibration and heat since it costs the same as the PTS version and is available relatively easily to me.

 

My value scale is odd to be sure.

 

I gladly paid $80 total for my set King Arms Troy BUIS replicas. A real-steel Troy BUIS rear alone costs $125USD before taxes, shipping and handling. I'd put the real-steels if I could afford it (EOTech, anyone?).

 

So when I see a real-steel BUIS sight system that's the same cost as it's replica version, and they're both available to me, I see the real-steel system as the better value.

 

 

[Noveske]

I feel this thread is gonna turn into a PTS debate, so back lets get track...

 

Are these sights actual 1:1 replicas of the MBUS?

 

 

I've noticed in the shotshow 2009 video that the MBUS has 2 rear sights, this one only has one... And the one from this picture taken off AR15 forums

 

 

 

Hmm.. if you look closely:

 

Picture 1: Prototype perhaps? Adjustable knob on the left & different mounting screw

Picture 2 & 3: Same design as the PTS

 

Here's a promotional picture:

 

 

And the PTS:

 

[FalloutBoy]

As Info for the price of the ACM Flip Ups.

 

25,- EUR are about 34,- USD shipping included

 

I bought them at ebay. I was just searching for some cheap flip up sights and found these pretty cool looking sights. I didn't know that they were MagPul Clones.

 

I would not mount them on my Oberlandarms OA15

 

Greets

[Azulsky]

I was under the impression there was a normal MBUS set and then just a rear MBUS marketed under the MOE line.

 

Its killing me that i might have to fork out $90 for a set of sights when i need only the rear one.

[Spartan452]

I was under the impression there was a normal MBUS set and then just a rear MBUS marketed under the MOE line.

 

Its killing me that i might have to fork out $90 for a set of sights when i need only the rear one.

 

You could get just the rear one at airsoftglobal, but they are 60 bucks + 20 or so shipping giving it a total of 80bucks for just the rear, might aswell get the entire set...

 

http://airsoftglobal.com/product_info.php?products_id=9068

[Fatal]

Could someone just clear up the whole PTS / Magpul thing for me please.

[smokenghosts]

Could someone just clear up the whole PTS / Magpul thing for me please.

 

 

 

 

PTS is as you know the company that manufactores Magpuls line of airsoft equiptment. But basically it's the same type of products, that from my history of speaking with Magpul do have the same build quality ect. BUT abviosuly arent tested enough to prove its ability to work when you need it. For example working well with recoil. I like to think of it like a brand new pistol thats never been broken in. It could work fine or it could have some small issues it just depends. And also it gives people who live in different countries the ability to get the stocks, grips, and sights that they manufactor as Magpul will not ship out of the U.S. There would be no reason to redesign 2 different sights for basically the same thing. I kind of feel like I didnt explain well but just trying to help.

 

Edit: Quoted wrong person.

[Pedro30]

Let me explain it better..

 

PTS is NOT Magpul, they are different companies. PTS is based in asia more specifically in China, at Hong Kong.

 

PTS makes Magpul replicas, even though they are high quality they do not use the same materials as actual real steel products. The replicas they make replicates everything, even their prices.

 

Some users like myself don't like PTS for pricing their products at the cost of the real steel, and perfer to purchase real steel items since they essentially cost the same. Many others, who I think are PTS implants, praise them... for... for... I don't know why they praise them, but they do...

 

 

[FallenGuard]

Or maybe they don't have the luxury of being able to purchase "Reel Steelz" in their country...

[Azulsky]

And what a fine luxury it is.

AFAIK we do still need the PTS handguard as i dont know the complexity of removing the heat shield on the real one

[Fatal]

Ok, thanks I was trying to inform someone that PTS isn't Magpul but he is thick headed.

[Spartan452]

Ok, thanks I was trying to inform someone that PTS isn't Magpul but he is thick headed.

 

PTS might not be magpul, but they are "licensed" by magpul to recreate any magpul product. They are kinda like madbull with JP and noveske, but to some extent they are like cybergun. Getting rid of all the competion with the overused excuse of "it's intellectual property". The reason why all of the ACM magpul knockoffs disappeared was because of PTS threatening them with legal action for infringment on intellectual property, but many people seem to brush that fact aside since PTS creates high quality replicas this makes PTS the only distributor of Magpul replicas overseas.

 

There was a big ACM masada debacle with many people buying masadas under the table since PTS confiscated most of the ACM masadas and deemed the rest contraband... This was a weird thing, since many people actually supported PTS confiscating any ACM masada. It is kinda funny since PTS has yet to release any photos or prototype information about their ACR/masada, except for some users here who say "I heard from PTS themselves that good things are coming" or "yes it will be released soon and guess what there will be GBB versions." I haven't given up hope on the PTS ACR, I feel PTS has really upped the level of quality and supported the advancement of airsoft, and I have the 500usd saved up to buy that PTS ACR if it ever gets released but by then inflation would probably bring the cost up to 800usd =(

 

Think about, if we keep on letting china produce cheap goods with decent quality, we will never see any advancement in the higher quality airsoft goods since no matter what they won't be able to compete with the cheap clone market.

 

 

[Noveske]

Let me explain it better..

 

PTS is NOT Magpul, they are different companies. PTS is based in asia more specifically in China, at Hong Kong.

 

PTS makes Magpul replicas, even though they are high quality they do not use the same materials as actual real steel products. The replicas they make replicates everything, even their prices.

 

Some users like myself don't like PTS for pricing their products at the cost of the real steel, and perfer to purchase real steel items since they essentially cost the same. Many others, who I think are PTS implants, praise them... for... for... I don't know why they praise them, but they do...

 

Where did these facts come from? There is a registered company Magpul (Asia) Limited which is the primary company responsible for the distribution of Magpul products (real steel) across Asia. They also are responsible for the PTS division, the manufacturing of Magpul replica parts for airsoft. I suppose some people tend not to realize the legal issues behind selling real steel parts in most of the world. If it is so easy to obtain real steel Magpul parts for airsoft without a firearms license where you are, well props to you being so much "cooler" than the rest of us. But as this IS an airsoft forum and we are talking about the rest of the world here. This is not some pissing competition about whether Magpul is better than PTS or if PTS is just as good as the real thing.

 

But just to clear things up, all PTS products are licensed with Magpul Industries. The designer from Magpul also designs the PTS products and modifies them if necessary along with a local team from Magpul Asia for airsoft specs. Materials used for most of the products are not always equivalent to the real steel products as heat stress is not as important of an issue on airsoft applications. The price issue: they vary on where in the world you are and it depends on the product. I do agree, however, that the PTS MBUS are over-priced although they do sell for less than USD 90 in some parts of the world.

[uscmCorps]

I started writing a PM to Fatal, but I might as well post it hear, although the truth is none of the anti-Magpul minions can accept it to be the truth.

 

Could someone just clear up the whole PTS / Magpul thing for me please.

This is something I wrote on AR15 not too long ago as a lot of RS shooters didn't understand the whole Magpul PTS thing either. A poster on AR15 quoted something I said here on Arnies, and I felt the info needed clarifying:

 

Originally Posted By uscmCorps:

Originally Posted By xBlackDarkLights:

Originally Posted By uscmCorps:

Magpul PTS is basically a Hong Kong airsoft manufacturer that got in contact with Magpul USA a while back and created a sister company under the Magpul Industries Corp.'s Umbrella. They are in fact a separate company, however they are closely affiliated with Magpul USA, and has exclusivity when it comes to any Magpul products reproduced in Airsoft. As part of the deal, they also have the right to use Magpul's name as part of their own company name as they are in some respects, a sub-division within the greater company. ANYTHING that has to do with Magpul's Airsoft products goes through the PTS division in Hong Kong, be it R&D, PR, manufacturing, legal, etc, etc. Anything that has to do with the real steel stuff goes through Magpul Ind. Corp in the USA.

 

What it all comes down to is that Magpul PTS is essentially a HK Airsoft Manufacturer that has an exclusive license and copyright agreement with Magpul USA. This means that they have the right to reproduce Magpul products for Airsoft, a financial portion of those sales goes back to Magpul USA as a royalty (per the licensing agreement), and they have the right to defend their airsoft copyright anywhere in the world in which copyrights are upheld. This also means that just because something is available in RS (like the short PMAGs), it doesn't mean that it is guaranteed to be reproduced in airsoft because as an airsoft manufacturer, they have to look at it from multiple angles such as the R&D costs, probable market popularity, etc. They don't have direct access to things like molds and such that were used to produce the RS counterparts, however they do have access to the CAD files and various other data needed to reproduce the Airsoft counterparts as closely as possible to the RS products.

If it is something going on an actually firearm, Magpul USA. Airsoft, Magpul PTS Asia. Magpul PTS purpose is to bring airsoft replicas of products offer for real firearms to the group airsoft players. Nothing more than that. Just another niche Magpul put their name into. Hopefully one day leads a now maturer airsoft player to eventually get into real shooting and go to the real products of a replica he use to play with. Magpul PTS has put the hammer down a few unlicensed airsoft replicas in HK quite recently. The PTS stands for Professional Training and Simulation, just a more "pretty" way to say airsoft.

 

LOL... I can't believe a post I wrote on an airsoft forum got quoted on AR15.com. Ohh the irony.

For the record, I shoot real steel, but I also enjoy training with Airsoft.

 

There's a lot of assumptions that fly around about Magpul PTS, not only in the real steel world, but also the airsoft world. For the longest time, airsofters assumed Magpul PTS was actually Magpul themselves. Slowly, the realization sank in that Magpul PTS is an airsoft company that Magpul licensed to reproduce their products in airsoft replica format.

 

Although Magpul PTS is based in Hong Kong, don't hold it against them. Not all Hong Kong based companies are out to rip off the rest of the world. Magpul PTS is one of a few companies out there that are trying their hardest to do things right. Not only are they officially licensed but they also produce a high quality product. Sadly that's not always the case when it comes to official licensing of real steel products... companies like Cybergun (which holds the Colt and SigArms licenses) and Umarex (which holds the H&K license) have a history of procuring airsoft licenses from real steel companies and then selling off those licenses to the highest bidder with seemingly complete disregard for what the quality of those replicas will be. It's those malicious companies that make airsofters so divided about the pros and cons of licensing real steel products. Many airsofters associate all licensed products with the 100% financially motivated companies like Cybergun, and assume Magpul PTS is the same way (which is sad because Magpul PTS has gone to great lengths to produce a superior product, comparable to it's real steel counterpart).

 

Magpul PTS has also been extremely proactive about stomping out unlicensed replicas of Magpul Airsoft products. Obviously unlicensed Magpul airsoft products encroach upon Magpul PTS' exclusive copyright and not only potentially cuts into Magpul PTS' sales but also can negatively affect Magpul's image (should an unlicensed Magpul product be misrepresented as a licensed one). Up until recently the airsoft consumer market has been relatively supportive of Magpul PTS' legal position in these matters as they acknowledge that even though their products are not cheap, Magpul PTS has gone to the effort to legally acquire the rights to reproduce the products as high quality replicas and that they are supported by Magpul to that end.

 

However, recently it was announced that an unnamed China based Company (most likely A&K) was going to manufacture and sell an unlicensed Airsoft Replica of the Magpul Masada (the prototype Masada, not the Magpul/Bushmaster ACR). Clearly that's an intellectual property that would be covered under Magpul PTS' licensing agreement with Magpul. Furthermore, Magpul PTS has officially stated that they have been developing a licensed replica of the Masada/ACR for some time now. Well, as much as real steel shooters have been clamoring for Magpul to release the Masada, the exact same can be said of airsofters in regards to the Magpul PTS' much delayed Masada replica. And that's where the new drama came about...

You see, the demographics of airsofters cover a wide range of ages, financial incomes, etc etc. Many expend a good deal of money converting their replicas to appear and feel as close to their real steel counterparts as possible. There are many others who simply do not have the same amount of expendable income (or simply do not wish to spend it). Throw in the current economic climate, and more often than not, airsofters are leaning towards the cheaper, lower quality airsoft replicas typically produced in mainland China.

So when the unlicensed China Based Company announced that they were going to release a replica of the Masada, Magpul PTS moved quickly to ensure that that did not happen, and if it did, no airsoft retailer/distributor would carry the unlicensed replica in fear of legal repercussions. Many airsofters who had previously been indifferent about Magpul PTS stomping out unlicensed Magpul replicas suddenly had a lot to say. While many (including myself) argue that it's Magpul's intellectual property, and that it infringes upon Magpul PTS' exclusive copyright, there are just as many airsofters that firmly believe that Magpul is simply being greedy in this matter. They contend that Magpul and Magpul PTS should just allow the unlicensed company to release their replica, or at the very least license it themselves. What's their motivation? Firstly, impatience. Magpul PTS has been working on an airsoft replica for sometime now and it has been delayed repeatedly (for whatever reason Magpul PTS has not commented on). With no definite release date for the licensed replica, the unlicensed replica seems like a light at the end of the tunnel for many consumers. Secondly, price. Magpul PTS, while they make a top notch product, are not as cheap as their China based competitors. Granted the China based stuff is never anywhere near the quality that Magpul PTS produces, but many consumers are starting to place higher priority on price over quality. There have been no statements as to the price of the licensed Magpul Masada, however, everyone knows it will be nowhere near as cheap as the unlicensed Masada which is currently speculated as costing US$150-$200. Due to these two factors, many airsoft consumers (not all, keep in mind) argue that the unlicensed replica should be released regardless of copyright propriety.

 

In my opinion, those motivations are driven purely by self interest.

 

There's actually another factor behind those airsofters' arguments, and that has a lot to do with the philosophy and back story of airsoft. Keep in mind that airsoft was started in Japan, a country that does not permit the right to bare arms. During the late 70s / early 80s, airsoft was born there and quickly grew in popularity in much of Asia. The replicas started off as somewhat unique designs that didn't closely replicate the appearance of real guns. Around the mid-80s, you started seeing airsoft replicas that were decent replicas of the real thing and their popularity exponentially grew. Even though there were airsoft replicas of ARs and most other real guns, it was so under the radar, it was generally ignored by the real gun manufacturers especially with paintball and their non-realistic aesthetics having the limelight here in the US. Meanwhile, airsoft continued on its course, largely unlicensed and the quality of those replicas just got better and better. Here's where the philosophy issue kicks in. Airsofters have become so accustomed to high quality unlicensed products, they have by and large accepted it as a necessary evil. Pretty much anyone who has ever bought an airsoft replica can fall into that category. And many of the proponents for unlicensed replicas cite Cybergun and Umarex as two major examples of licensing gone horribly wrong and built purely around financial gain. It's because of these factors, that the majority of airsofters rationalize the legitimacy of buying unlicensed airsoft products.

 

Back to the Airsoft Masada... People want it now. People want it cheap. And the majority seem okay with turning a blind eye to the morality of copyright infringement of this replica. It's not been an easy debate to have with those that see things in this way. Reasoning and understanding seem to go out the window. While I like airsoft and the replicas that have been available to date (even though many of those were probably unlicensed by the originators of those IPs), I and many others stand firmly on the position that when a company like Magpul PTS comes along, gets the legal copyright from the real steel company and produces a high quality product, they should be embraced by the airsoft community... rather than be chastised for defending their exclusive copyright (something that is within their RIGHT to do). It's a tough debate, argued by those that sit at either extreme of the issue.

 

Regardless, there's one absolute that pretty much most real steel fire arm companies (especially those with popular platforms) must accept... one way or another, their product will be replicated in airsoft. Magpul, Noveske, Daniel Defense, TDI, IMI, Gemtech, Quicksilver, DNTC, JP Rifles... are just a few companies that have chosen to license their products to reputable airsoft companies/manufacturers. Hopefully that list will grow, and other real steel manufacturers will also align themselves with well respected airsoft manufacturers (who have a genuine interest in reproducing an accurate looking replica that truly does justice to the real steel counterpart it's based on). The more that happens, the more the firearm manufacturers' interests will be protected rather than their Intellectual Properties continue to be so liberally "borrowed" from. I still hold out hope that VLTOR will someday jump on the bandwagon. Their products are in high demand in the airsoft community, and whether they like it or not, their products are being reproduced for airsoft. I'd rather see them get something back and regain some control of the situation. (Eric, if you're reading this and ever change your mind, LMK, I'll point you in the right direction).

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted By Mikegigabyte:

every airsoft part will fit on a real weapon, thats how sad it is. these chinese rip off shops clone it down to the serial number. they look totally real, and for a little while work. ive seen rails, grips, stocks,scopes,sights,magazines everything but a barrel copied and for sale. check out this company link

 

Not entirely true. While there are many airsoft parts that can be used to a certain extent on a real steel shooter (like VFGs, stocks, BUIS, and some handguards), many other electric powered airsoft gun products are made to a different spec or just down right incompatible due to how the replicas go together (such as pistol grips, receivers, barrels, buffer tubes (sometimes), flashhiders, magazines, trigger guards, charging handles). Recently, the lines of compatibility have been blurred somewhat with the introduction of AR and AK airsoft replicas that are gas powered (typically propane) such as those made by Western Arms, Inokatsu and WE. These new gas powered Airsoft replicas (commonly referred to as GBB or Gas Blow Back), have very realistic dimensions, actions, and even break down just like the real thing. They can NEVER be made to fire a real round, however they do accept many real steel external accessories.

 

 

 

* My apologies for such a long post. This wasn't planned as quite the essay it has become. Just wanted to help demystify a topic that many don't know much about.

 

So if you really want an honest, unbiased report on why things are the way they are, there you have it.

 

 

 

May I also point out that the anti-Magpul PTS "pundits" have never had a reasonable response to the fact that Magpul PTS is only producing a few thousands units of a particular Magpul PTS item every few months, whereas Magpul USA produces 2,000 to 10,000 units a WEEK for most of their hot items. When you produce large volume, your unit cost goes down. When you produce small volume, your unit cost goes up. The simple fact that Magpul PTS is able to keep their MSRP reasonably close to RS MSRP is economically applauded. Then the other arguement that often comes up in which people will say, Magpul PTS doesn't use the same materials as the RS. That may very well be true. But does that make it inferior? Not necessarily. Did Magpul PTS choose to use cheap POS plastic in the manufacture of their products? I don't know, and pretty much none of the rest of the public does either. For all we know, they could have selected the highest possible commercial grade polymer available on the market that was designed for aero-space. That polymer may even be better than what Magpul USA used and/or more expensive to use. Or it could be inferior in every respect. None of us know the concrete facts behind this. But apparently the anti-Magpul PTS crowd knows all this because they make bold factual statements like they have an insider's knowledge of all Magpul PTS related issues. Puuuuuuulease! Thing is, the likes of Pedro30 et al don't like real facts. They like falsehoods that fit in their arguements. And like pretty much every other thread where this kind of BS comes up, someone else will come along and say, enough of this silly arguement! let's get back to the topic at hand. At which point Pedro30, who has no real facts to back up any of the complete BS he's been spewing says something to the effect of "Ahhh the first smart comment of the day!", and ignores the extremely valid points his opposition has presented as he can't accept the fact that he's got no real arguement. It's pathetic. And yet, every time this comes up, he's quick to grab his pitch fork and lit torch and incite the towns people to chase the evil Magpul PTS out of town. But when people come to Magpul PTS' defense using real facts... well that just doesn't jive with the OPs' logic and they're quick to turn the topic in a different direction. Facts are scary. Ignorance is bliss. Self centered motivation is awesome. And so the world turns.

 

I'm pretty much tired of the BS. If you really want to believe the pure manure guys like this are hurling because it lets you sleep at night, so be it. Personally, I'd rather have an honest unbiased understanding of the issues at hand rather than delude myself to help rationalize a self interest based philosophy. But that's me.