The merits of hosing?

[greg]

So what do folks out there really think about sustained fire? & I do mean sustained. You know the sort of thing, continual fireing until the target calls hit.

 

Is it a valid technique within airsoft or just over the top rubbish, for show off newbs with their first high rof gun?

 

 

Greg.

[HaVoC]

Warranted if the guy doesn't call hit the first or second time, but you're absolutely sure you've hit him. Otherwise, it's just cheap rubbish and one of the things that makes 'mainstream' (i.e. non-milsim) airsoft suck so badly.

[Dom S]

I have only recently got into airsoft, first playing paintball regularly for over a year. Paintball has always taught me to keep on hitting someone until they call out.

 

If they pretended they werent hit for the first few rounds, ill shoot them a few more times when they finally DO call out, just to make sure

[spetsnazdave87]

If its a windy day and you dont seem to be getting the range (and if its non milsim obviously) hosing can be effective but I find kills that way are a bit cheap.

 

Times I do hose is in dense foliage when I cant be sure my rounds are getting through the bushes to hit the guy on the other side. In those situations Im just gonna hold the trigger down till they call it.

 

Dave

[RSM]

Depends, hosing as in to literally pour BBs onto an area target for supression purposes is a valid tactic in general games in my opinion. Considering that most AEGs all perform the same as long as the feeding is consistent and enough ammo is carried then the only thing that determines an assault rifle from a support weapon is the weight of fire it can bring to an encounter. I just happen to have an M4 that does silly rof that ends up getting used as something between assault rifle and support weapon because it is accurate, fairly long ranged and can empty a high cap in 10 seconds with consistent feeding and yes, I have on occassion leap frogged from point to point while doing mag dumps to provide suppressing fire when no one else seemed to pick up on the idea of keeping heads down before moving.

 

I suppose hosing can also be used in a 'watch my tracer' for target indication but thats more of an extended burst, which on a high speed rig would obviously be a lot more dramatic. Then again it also provides an offshoot tactic 'the bushwhack' for routing out people who sit in bushes or have a barely adequate foliage layer of protection so you know after about 3 seconds you'll have chewed through.

 

Its really more down to effective/appropriate use of hosing that stops it from being newb rubbish/overkill

[renegadecow]

A 'few more times' doesn't count as hosing, thats making sure. Hosing is more like dumping an entire 300+ round hicap on a window banking on the slim chance that one or two bbs might make their way through a narrow slot and hit the guy behind it. And all hosing does is prove two things:

-you can't aim

-you like to waste bbs

[Dom S]

To be honest, it all depends on your style of play anyway. Having played paintball ive picked up some bad airsoft habits, for example a thing in paintball we call "sweet spotting" (havent seen anyone do it in airsoft yet, though maybe thats cos i havent played with anyone good ) which basically involves analysing the next point of cover a target is going to move to, and hose that spot when they make a move for it. Obviously i do this knowing most of the bbs arent going to hit, but it sure beats trying to hit a running target on semi auto from 50 ft

[RSM]

So what about people who end up dumping 300 rounds through building windows from the outside to allow other people to get in through the only accessible point of entry?

 

I agree that hosing an area for no real reason is a waste, hosing a person unless they are a cheating grot is also a waste and bad sportsmanship, but hosing to deny your opponents use of a vantage point or reducing their mobility/manuevering options as far as I'm concerned is a valid tactic, as is bushwhacking to a point.

 

I remember when CA249s first came out and at the site I used to play at before it shut there was a hill overlooking a firebase, if a 249 user found a good spot on that hill without having been taken out then everyone in the firebase would find it hard to stay out of cover for too long because of the amount of plastic that would be raining down over the whole base, all the while with the reduced awareness the opposing team could get in closer and start chucking nades in, to me hosing/supressing in airsoft are the same thing - a 3-5 round burst landing in my general location could be coming from anyone, a steady stream of plastic that doesn't seem to be running out any time soon means that continuing on the present course may not be the best idea or that I am going to have to approach from elsewhere.

 

Doesn't mean that hosing is a tactic that should be employed by everyone in every possible scenario because that just leads to overkill.

 

To be honest, it all depends on your style of play anyway. Having played paintball ive picked up some bad airsoft habits, for example a thing in paintball we call "sweet spotting" (havent seen anyone do it in airsoft yet, though maybe thats cos i havent played with anyone good ) which basically involves analysing the next point of cover a target is going to move to, and hose that spot when they make a move for it. Obviously i do this knowing most of the bbs arent going to hit, but it sure beats trying to hit a running target on semi auto from 50 ft

 

While the wall of plastic/paint/DUI shells (in the case of Phalanx that is) principle does work, you'll save more ammo by using short bursts and getting a small grasp of range estimation and how long it takes your BBs to get there, then at the same time work out where your target is going to be over this time span then work out how much farther ahead of your target you need to aim so that your BBs and your target intercept each other

[renegadecow]

It hasn't got any style. Its not gratifying for either person (the guy shooting and the guy being shot) when the reason of winning is simply that there were thousands of rounds in the air as opposed to saying "he was a good shot, took out my bum when it peeked out of cover for a split second".

 

edit:

I'd like to add an actual downside to getting used to hosing. I've had my fair share of tagging hosers merely by changing position and taking a couple of well aimed shots. The guys usually were so hell bent in pouring bbs and using the stream of bbs as tracer that it limits his re-aiming speed when my head pops up at another corner.

[RSM]

Renegade, just want to clarify something as you seem (to me at least) to be of the opinion that no one should fire more than a few rounds at a time ever:

 

Are you against the use of extended bursts or mag dumps for the sole purpose of eliminating one other player, but not against the use of such tactics for area denial?

 

Its just when you say there is no style, well, I would think that there are styles of play people may have which veer them towards certain roles, I'm a bit of a jack of all trades in that I can competently scout and be covert enough to get an eye on something and report back the intel, but I'm equally at home doing fire and manuever as either a rifleman or support gunner, the only difference is how long I hold the trigger down for. Its skill and game experiance that allow you to determine whether you need to put 2 or 200 rounds into something combined with whatever style/role you prefer playing.

[spetsnazdave87]

Was playing a game at Phoenix woodland, and the first objective was defending the bunker. Using my Star M60E4 I laid down continuous fire (they were about 10 feet away from us in the bushes hunkered in among trees and dense shrubs) and along with my team mates medicking and popping up with their rifles and smgs we held out for a long time.

 

When we were finally taken out I found out I had just 9 bbs left rattling around in a 4000 round box mag...

 

Dave

 

edit: forgot the point... as long as youre suppressing, I see no problem with hosing.

[screamin_weasel]

Otherwise, it's just cheap rubbish and one of the things that makes 'mainstream' (i.e. non-milsim) airsoft suck so badly.

 

people taking themselves too seriously is one of the things that makes mil-sim airsoft rubbish - if we're all feeling free to make sweeping, snobby elitist statements that is.

[MarsdenH]

I'm all for hosing, but as long as your doing in a sportmanship positive kind of way.

 

Personally I think it goes back to airsoft as a mil-sim sport. It simply isn't. If my bullets shot 900 yards somewhat accurate and could go through all types of undergrowth then yeah, I would not hose.

 

The only thing I don't understand about the whole hosing vs. non-hosing debate is why would you not play with certain people? If you are on the "no hosing" mentality, play against people who hose, it makes you a better, more well rounded player. Same goes with hosers playing against non-hosing. Also why stick to one mentality? Why not change up the way you play and try the game from the other side? It makes you a better player. Half of the time I use my primary rifle only having 800 rounds on me, but I've also done 15k in 4 hours of gaming aswell as a squad support.

 

So I'm not saying one is better than the other, but it just is varying type of game play. No one is "better" than the other, or more "milsim" than the other. Remember people do hose in real life. And last time I heard, people do hose in the US military aswell .

[spetsnazdave87]

And last time I heard, people do hose in the US military aswell .

 

They call in air as often as they can too but thats a little tricky even for milsim

 

Dave

[BigD_SealTeamXXL]

its their bbs their wasting so im not bothered

 

ive hosed before and been hosed... if someone wont take a hit, 30 more BBs will change their mind.

 

i wouldnt hose a position to keep heads down as thats a waste of bbs. i was "taught" when cover and moving was to lay decent cover fire... not drop a hi cap in 10 seconds... i recently laid cover fire by firing semi on their position in a sort of beat style. this extended my covering fire 10 fold with a 100rnd mid cap than jus full autoing the dude.

[Danke]

I'm not too much for hosing myself. I find it just attracts too much unwanted attention. Spec fire or suppressing fire do have their places also.

 

I try to keep with single aimed shots or double taps myself, but when it hits the fan I'll keep firing till the target is down.

 

Having a whole section of folk with Cmags on M4s and MP5s while calling themselves support gunners is bit off my meter of suspended belief though.

 

 

[DarkLite]

It depends, I think, on the context. I will hose people if I am certain they are not calling hits - and I have had to at times. I will do a long burst or two to suppress if it allows a team-mate to move closer or into a flanking position.

 

I wouldn't hose for area-denial. It's a tad unsporting, especially if there is a drastic difference in the amount of support weapons on one team compared to the other.

 

There's a team in Hong Kong whose MO is that everyone - and I mean EVERYONE - on their team must have an AEG with 20rps MINIMUM and use only drum mags. Incredibly tedious to play against, as they simply hose EVERYTHING in EVERY DIRECTION until they win. Given that each member of said team carries about 5-6 drum mags each and move about as much as a snail does on a bad day... Not at all fun to play against.

 

[renegadecow]

Renegade, just want to clarify something as you seem (to me at least) to be of the opinion that no one should fire more than a few rounds at a time ever:

Are you against the use of extended bursts or mag dumps for the sole purpose of eliminating one other player, but not against the use of such tactics for area denial?

I may not be sending my idea of a hoser too well. There are people with hicaps and there are people with drum mags. What I'm getting at is how I find it a complete waste when poeple with 10 hicaps and two drum mags manages to finish all of his ammo (thats like what, almost an entire 5000 count bag) under the span of 15 minutes and only gets to have a kill ratio of 0.1%. I just view it as a complete waste and un-fun being a frugal person. Prolonged bursts are prolonged burtss, I agree to the sound tactics behind that but I'm talking about gunners who simply do not stop firing from their gun until they break a fuse or smoke comes out of their wiring (this happened to someone I knew who didn't have a fuse on). Complete and utter hosers. Cheesy kills, like saying you won because the other guys' battery ran dry.

 

edit:

I think my negative view of them stems from my childhood: back when Street Fighter 2 Turbo was hot, there were the few irritating kids who would simply flood the screen with hadoukens until the other guy dies from merely blocking them all. Then instead of a star to indicate a win, the icon is replaced with an apple or a slice of cheese. I identify these kids and hosers together and can only see them as (putting into the equivalent of your sociological terms) chavs.

[RSM]

Cheese icon = lol.

 

I see what you mean, and I agree, I've gone through 5,000 rounds in a hectic day but thats with lending ammo to people too, these days even with my high speed M4 I actually have to try to get through more than 2-3000 unless I'm having to 'bring the pain' but then that's playing in a completely different role - but then I'm limited in that role due to only carrying hicaps, I've never considered carrying boxmags because they are built gash, look gash and are a pain in the backside to store when empty.

 

I wouldn't hose for area-denial. It's a tad unsporting, especially if there is a drastic difference in the amount of support weapons on one team compared to the other.

 

I'd like to clarify that hosing for area denial is for example putting a 50 (less than a 2 second burst for me) round burst down a staircase that you know has stack on it due to the shadows, no one gets hit but the noise and sudden amount of richochets completely throws people off and leaves them either trying to rush where they'll quite possibly take a lot of casualties (but theres only one of me) or they can find another way toward the objective. Similarly there was part of an urban site I was at that had a peep hole looking down a corridor making it impossible for any attackers to move up, after fragging the corridor (the obstructions didn't count as hard cover) I simply started lacing that peephole while 5 others kept low and to the walls before fragging a room and getting around the blocked corridor. Without someone making it suicide to man that peephole anyone going down that corridor would have been tagged.

[Dom S]

edit:

I think my negative view of them stems from my childhood: back when Street Fighter 2 Turbo was hot, there were the few irritating kids who would simply flood the screen with hadoukens until the other guy dies from merely blocking them all. Then instead of a star to indicate a win, the icon is replaced with an apple or a slice of cheese. I identify these kids and hosers together and can only see them as (putting into the equivalent of your sociological terms) chavs.

 

 

Laughed out loud at that one but i can see what youre saying, and there is a glaring difference between supression and straight "hosing". Having done some limited combat manouvres training with the RMC, i fully appreciate the psycological power incoming fire has. Its relatively simple to supress someone for over a minute with a 100 rd mag. it just takes the confidence in your team mates that you arent going to get flanked, and the know how of how to mask your own position whilst supressing someone else.

 

what im trying to say is that i think it all depends on context. If you cant rely on the people you are playing with (walk ons come to mind) and you need to provide your own cover, then putting a large amount of fire on an enemy you know is gonna try and pop u when you move is acceptable. Alternatively, theres no excuse for hosing just because you know you dont have the skills to hit them with bursts or semi

 

 

slightly off topic here, i think more AEG's should be made with a 3/5 round burst mode. This would be much more beneficial than either semi or full auto in a large number of situations, preserving ammo whilst still giving a very high hit chance. What do you guys think?

[ninja master of coffee]

All things have a place. If you just use hosing as a general means of hitting people chances are people will come to refer to you as "that bellend of overkills the whole time" which you probably don't want. If you're either suppressing an area target or making sure someone really know's they're hit for whatever reason (long range, cheating, drunk) then fine. I've had occasions of shooting people from an unexpected direction and them simply not take it because they think it's friendly fire, I'm out of bounds or they just don't like being flanked and are a bit contrary. Also had a friend shoot someone on the opposite team at close range, the guy not take his hit, be shot again and again and keep insisting "same team, same team!" which he wasn't and even if he was, friendly fire counts at the site we go to.

[Zatarra]

"Nothing succeeds like excess"

Airsoft is alot like farming, to grow more crops, you have to plant more seeds.

Or in this case BBs.

 

On a more serious note, hosing is an acceptable tactic, why else would the good people at

Tokyo Mauri manufacture a gun that can fire 750-850 rpm and have a mag that can hold up to 300 to 600 rounds.

[RWJP]

In general I don't agree with the numbskulls who open up, and stay open for ages... Firing humongous bursts of hundreds of rounds in one go is ridiculous...

 

However, I was part of an attack where we had a support gunner (using an M249) firing pretty much continuously on the position we were attacking. Over half of the defenders fell back before we got close due to the wall of plastic being put down.

 

Hosing is ok when used in the right situations like area denial or suppressive support fire, it's just unfair when it's used by people as their only tactic, rather than paying attention to their trigger discipline...

[DanHS]

A friend of mine I airsoft with often is a bit trigger happy, but I don't feel that he hoses so much as that he uses his firepower to good effect. It's not my style to fire long bursts, but he does it to good effect without overshooting people. He still aims and tries to make his shooting effective, he'll just put 20 or 30 rounds into a target at once. And it usually works. He has a KWA G36 that I upgraded a little (left it at stock velocity but made it a bit more accurate and durable), with a big battery and a few hicaps. If you want to see what I mean you can look for it on youtube, most recent video added by 'DeathByJeep'. You can see him fire the longish bursts with the G36, the faint pops in either semi or quick ~20rps bursts are me. I don't think of that as hosing, but as high volume effective fire (although in that game I kept breaking off so fast after shooting that he never really got anything to make it through the brush, but it usually works for him). It doesn't annoy me like other people I've played against who have put hundreds of rounds into a target. I usually use mid or locaps and fire on semi or short burts. If I'm playing CQB I may use hicaps and primarily fire bursts, but I don't spray anything with hundreds of rounds at a time.

 

I once exchanged fire with a guy sporting a boxmag on his ICS M16, he must have put over 500 rounds into my position while I only put 100 or so back (which is a lot for me). I could have sworn I hit him a couple times but the brush was thick and he may not have felt it if I did. It was annoying that there would just be a wall of bbs every time I popped out, as opposed to some honest attempts at aiming and timing a few shots, but whatever, I like a challenge. I do prefer when everyone is firing aimed bursts as opposed to just putting up a wall of bbs. That is what I consider hosing, just dumping hundreds of rounds in the direction of every target only hoping to hit them by volume of fire. It may be effective, but I can be plenty effective with a lot less ammo. Area denial I can understand with reasonable levels of fire; you don't need a SAW gunner dropping continuous fire of 4000rnds on one position to keep heads down. It makes the game boring because then nobody is going to go anywhere.

[SgtBojangles]

Hmm... I've had my fair share of running around with a C-Mag on one of my M4's, but that was for suppressive fire and intimidation. I shot at people until I saw their hands go up, as some of the people were notorious for not calling their hits.

 

I think the fact that my Echo1 416 doesn't like full auto is what keeps me at semi-auto a lot of the time. It double feeds, which isn't fun.

 

Now that I've an M249, I think I'll adjust my style to accommodate more suppressive fire, limiting it for bad situations. As was said earlier, box mags are hard to carry around when empty, so if I don't empty it, I don't have to worry about that.