Agent Hunk Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Like the current crop of very unreliable GBB rifles are not killing realism... These rifles appeal only to those who just speak about milsim instead of doing it. +1 It's fairly foolish to base someone's level of milsim on the propellant of their rifle. I just prefer a reliable platform that will work in all the temperatures I encounter in my region. A GBBR is not fitting of that requirement. Doesn't speak anything towards the magnitude of MILSIM. Does flanking change with a GBBR? Do 3-5 second rushes? How about room clearing? Fireteam organization? Link to post Share on other sites
Reborn Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Besides the L85 Im not really impressed. The two rifles are rehashed M4s basically. Give me something awesome like a G3. But then the reloading might be annoying what with the whole changing handle thing Soldiers of 40+ national armies have done it just fine for decades, not to mention police forces all over the world. If you think you are better than the tried-and-tested Heckler & Koch system, then maybe you should go back to your Armalites. Link to post Share on other sites
X Lupin Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 People complaining about cold temperatures have obviously never used HPA in an external air gun. It will function fine, even in sub-zero. An AEG will freeze up before a good classic will. I would also like to point out for users who don't know, that Sun Project and Daytonagun weapons are full stroke gasblowbacks, with very intense recoil, which use AEG magazines. The only reason I can think of NOT to get one of these setups (aside from cost, of course) is the use of an external rig, which I do not mind in the slightest. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Besides the L85 Im not really impressed. They did hint at an AK and an MP5, but as they don't have pics yet, they don't exist. The good part to think about is that they are at the very least trying to make something else. Who knows, they might even dabble into G3's and FAL's later on. Link to post Share on other sites
Kraut Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 +1 It's fairly foolish to base someone's level of milsim on the propellant of their rifle. I just prefer a reliable platform that will work in all the temperatures I encounter in my region. A GBBR is not fitting of that requirement. Doesn't speak anything towards the magnitude of MILSIM. Does flanking change with a GBBR? Do 3-5 second rushes? How about room clearing? Fireteam organization? +1 for every example of someone trying to use "realism" as an excuse. Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 +1 It's fairly foolish to base someone's level of milsim on the propellant of their rifle. I just prefer a reliable platform that will work in all the temperatures I encounter in my region. A GBBR is not fitting of that requirement. Doesn't speak anything towards the magnitude of MILSIM. Yeah I agree there, I don't see what the hell being "milsim" has anything to do with it. +1 for every example of someone trying to use "realism" as an excuse. An excuse for what? Link to post Share on other sites
Walton_County_Firefighter Posted May 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Ok let me address an issue that I've noticed. I didnt say that I expected gbbr's to exceed aeg's in popularity or anything related to numbers, but I just wanted to know if they will ever have a decent ratio of gbb to aeg like 5:1. So carry on gents. Link to post Share on other sites
Kalmar Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 +1 for every example of someone trying to use "realism" as an excuse. Excuse? Excuse for what - Because we enjoy the added realism of the GBB mechanism? I don't think we have anything to apologize for. Edit: An excuse for what? Beat me to it lol Link to post Share on other sites
Seraphim989 Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Soldiers of 40+ national armies have done it just fine for decades, not to mention police forces all over the world. If you think you are better than the tried-and-tested Heckler & Koch system, then maybe you should go back to your Armalites. Whoa whoa whoa buddy take it easy...Im not arguing with the design. just saying it would take some getting used to. I own a G3. great gun Link to post Share on other sites
Docv400 Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 ...And hop up? If you're trying to shoot straight why the *fruitcage* are you spinning the BB?... Please tell me you're joking People complaining about cold temperatures have obviously never used HPA in an external air gun. It will function fine, even in sub-zero. That's because compressed air doesn't behave in the same way as a liquid gas, when used in this application. Link to post Share on other sites
Skarclaw Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I think eventually we will see more gbb rifles etc, although I'm pretty skeptical of the gas in mag design. Personally a system which uses external air for consistency (and cost), coupled with AEG hops and magazines is ideal. Link to post Share on other sites
Triad 360 Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Since people only really want a GBBr because of the recoil and sound effects, I think that companies should make a rifle which is an AEG but has a optional gas blow back system in it - for example, the BB's are fired like a normal AEG but a small gas cartridge in the handguard of the gun could run a blowback feature giving you the recoil and sound effects that make GBBr's desireable. This would eliminate the problems of unreliability in cold weather while still keeping the positives of a GBB system. Link to post Share on other sites
X Lupin Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Since people only really want a GBBr because of the recoil and sound effects, I think that companies should make a rifle which is an AEG but has a optional gas blow back system in it - for example, the BB's are fired like a normal AEG but a small gas cartridge in the handguard of the gun could run a blowback feature giving you the recoil and sound effects that make GBBr's desireable. This would eliminate the problems of unreliability in cold weather while still keeping the positives of a GBB system. Actually, a good gas system, like a BattleMaster or Daytonagun, has desirable performance effects, aside from the noise and the shiny block of metal clacking around, the external Co2 source provides a highly consistent weapon with a more stable velocity (the gas expands behind the BB, making it maintain its velocity longer.) It may not be as accurate as an AEG, but the "bush-penetration" factor makes it desirable for some users. As I said, it's not for everyone. Also, the cold weather thing, I'll say again, a gun using HPA will work flawlessly at even colder temperatures than an AEG. This is, as Doc said, because HPA is not liquid, and does not "freeze." Link to post Share on other sites
galactica Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I'm champing at the bit for a GBB G36 to be honest. The MilSimmer in me actually desires less accuracy on full auto, as it is in the real world. The noise, recoil and reloading time are all pluses. CO2 in mag FTW too - even better for ammo conservation and awareness in a limited ammo game. Link to post Share on other sites
my_plague_666 Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I know it was not the first gbb ever made but its the first that was redialy available to the masses if you had the coin. before AEGs the only guns available to the masses were spring or gas can i see them taking over? hell no! the average airsofter is too in love with his 40rps stubby M4 with a 10 bazillion round box mag. i cant see many airsofters being happy with 50 round mags and poorer consistency with a gas in mag system. nor can i see them using classics as despite being able to use their coveted box mags they would dismiss an external rig as 'unrealistic' (irony alert!) personally i'm not a gas in mag fan, if i were to go GBB i'd have to go external. however i would love to see more EBB development as that would capture the best of both worlds. Link to post Share on other sites
xerxes Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I often wonder if all the folks bashing GBBR performance and reliability have actually used any for a reasonable (three months plus) length of time... My G&P WOC has given my zero problems in all the time I've had it, and has performed just as well as 90% of the AEGs out there. Hell, I ditched my few remaining AEGs because the GBBR was so accurate, consistent and fun to use. I live in Scotland, it's bloody freezing here a lot of the time, and I've had no problems skirmishing with my GBBR... Link to post Share on other sites
black shot Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 A friend of mine got a G&P WOC for sh**s and giggles and let me skirmish with it once. Personally I liked the familiarity of the gun's take down more than anything else (absolutely hate all the little screws, springs, and doohickeys in the gearbox). Now if someone were to say come out with a gas in gun design rather then gas in mag or external system (I have nothing but respect for external gas I just personally feel like I'm running around with a flame thrower instead of a rifle whenever I play paintball or use a classic ) I would scoop one up right away simply due to the fact that I'd be more comfortable with it when it comes to taking it apart, cleaning it, upgrading it etc. and the cheaper mags. In the end though it comes down to what people are comfortable with. I think people mainly bash GBBr because they are new and unfamiliar not because they "suck". Link to post Share on other sites
Seraphim989 Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Was it JAC that had guns that held the gas in the stock? Link to post Share on other sites
mcnuggets Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 GBB rifles will not be popular as AEGs because of their use of inconsistent propellants as well as their expensive and low capacity magazines. An external rig and HPA on the other hand would work great. Although I can't see people getting over the remote line issue. The only work around I see is storing a HPA tank and low pressure regulator in a mock M203 or by using a refillable CO2 tank used on the RAP4's. Link to post Share on other sites
Reborn Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 The GBB rifle is still in its developmental infancy. The G&P WOC series makes for the best compromise at the moment, at least to me. A GBB rifle that would be able to compete with its AEG counterpart would most likely have the following: - Realistic dimensions (achieved) - Realistic operation (achieved) - Ability to accommodate real-steel parts/accessories (achieved) - Ability to function reliably with reasonable maintenance - Use of inexpensive magazines - Use of internal propellant reservoirs (i.e. hidden in stocks, foregrips, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites
snorkelman Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Was it JAC that had guns that held the gas in the stock? aye in their NBB desgns - not a lot of room for buffer and recoil spring if you've filled the buffer tube with gas. add to that while BV systems are relatively simple they arent approximations of real steel bolts and fire control group etc which some folks seem to have got keen on In some respects the fact that WA and GHK based guns have adopted that approach to internals is going to be a two edged sword. They've kinda pushed expectations beyond just gas and recoil and into an expectation of gas, recoil and roughly accurate representations of internal functionality too. Gas in mag/gas on gun blow backs dont exactly have a lot of wriggle room to squeeze major improvements out of in first place and that additional requirement is going to narrow the options further. ie Nobody gave a hoot when it came to what the AEG mechbox looked like, but nowadays gas blowback is being partly evaluated on how the internals look and function rather than just what it does. If you combine those expectations with manufacs who are using same old materials and manufacturing techniques as they did in the 90s and the fact that neither the properties of the usable gases themselves or the laws of physics have changed in meantime, I reckon it would be pretty foolish to regard the current rifles as the first birth pangs on some sort of exponential development path. On a development scale of 1 to 10 they're probably already sitting at around a six or a seven, rather than at a 1 or a 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Samm Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 The GBB rifle is still in its developmental infancy. The G&P WOC series makes for the best compromise at the moment, at least to me. A GBB rifle that would be able to compete with its AEG counterpart would most likely have the following: - Realistic dimensions (achieved) - Realistic operation (achieved) - Ability to accommodate real-steel parts/accessories (achieved) - Ability to function reliably with reasonable maintenance - Use of inexpensive magazines - Use of internal propellant reservoirs (i.e. hidden in stocks, foregrips, etc.) What, you mean like the 12 year old Youth Engineering MP5? As just one example of many classic designs. I've not heard of any internal reservoir rifle-sized gas gun that hasn't suffered from bad cooldown. Gas guns will never be as reliable as AEGs, there are too many inconsistencies. Link to post Share on other sites
Reborn Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 What about the use of CO2 in an internal reservoir separate from the magazine? CO2 doesn't suffer from the effects of cool-down and it may be the solution. Link to post Share on other sites
KWP Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Put the dang gas tank in the buffer tube as in Real Action Markers and bye bye AEG forevah. Link to post Share on other sites
galactica Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Put the dang gas tank in the buffer tube as in Real Action Markers and bye bye AEG forevah. And if there's no buffer tube? Link to post Share on other sites
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