redline Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Well, back in 05' 06, when I was deciding on a new AEG, it was ICS vs CA, with 50% recommendations aagainst the one or the other. In the end, when I went stateside, I decided to go G&P, which is still running and the most reliable AEG I've seen. These days it's WE vs WA, and I'm thinking about going G&P again. Only problem is, G&P is not available in Germany. But then, if the new law prohibits Airsoft Guns in germany, it's one point I won't have to worry about anymore... btw, you can't beat the WE pricing also I would certainly agree with you on the WE pricing. But in the end, I had spent more money to get my WE working, than I probably would have if I picked up a G&P. Of course, it seems like I've had worse luck than most people. In essence, I got a lemon. With the price of mags coming down, It is very, VERY tempting.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 hmmm...are the inconsitencies normal with all GBBs? Do the WA or G&Ps suffer from the same issues? No, absolutely not. I can trace this problem back to the new steel nozzles. They are >not< the same shape as the brass ones. Small differences throughout the design. My guess (and Im guessing) is that the new "2 0-ring" nozzles arent fitting well with the old brass cylinders. Or the floating valves arent seating well..... Or ???? One thing I dont like with the steel nozzles is the HUGE wide f_cking open "windows" that let the gas charge flow in. At first this seems like a great idea - no matter how the valve is rotated in the forward position, the ports are large and open enough that gas will find its way into the nozzle head easily (through the small opening on the cylinder.) What it ends up doing is cooling down the nozzle and cylinder assembly WAY faster - venting is far more problematic than it ever was in cold weather. So bad that the op-rod is sticking even with Krytox. My feeling is that it's the port design screwing things up - read; LOWER and erratic fps. The gun cant pressurize the nozzle head consistently with the HUGE open area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WETTI Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Thanks for the vid WETTI. The gun fires great but am I noticing a sluggish ROF on the first and last 2-3shots? Can't never satisfy you, can I? NO, the firing is consistent all the way thru, period. 'Sluggish' on our CO2 platform? Sorry, don't have that word in my dictionary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
somegirls Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Isn't there any possibility of a QD locking or some kind of trap door system for the Co2 chamber lock? It seemed to look like it took forever to put in the bulb. For myself I gonna stick to greengas anyways but I'm just asking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Chef Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 It's not as bad as it seems Somegirls. I've got Co2 mags for my Hi-Capa and it has the similar screw in system. You can get quite quick at it. It's amazing how fast you can do it under fire! I like the idea of tuning the magazine capacity to suit the output of the capsule. That makes so much sense. WETTI... I assume you're joking, but in case you're not. Sluggish, means slow or laboured. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
newcomer Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Can't never satisfy you, can I? NO, the firing is consistent all the way thru, period. 'Sluggish' on our CO2 platform? Sorry, don't have that word in my dictionary. Sorry my choice of word got you annoyed. I'm satisfied with the video thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redline Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 No, absolutely not. I can trace this problem back to the new steel nozzles. They are >not< the same shape as the brass ones. Small differences throughout the design. My guess (and Im guessing) is that the new "2 0-ring" nozzles arent fitting well with the old brass cylinders. Or the floating valves arent seating well..... Or ???? One thing I dont like with the steel nozzles is the HUGE wide f_cking open "windows" that let the gas charge flow in. At first this seems like a great idea - no matter how the valve is rotated in the forward position, the ports are large and open enough that gas will find its way into the nozzle head easily (through the small opening on the cylinder.) What it ends up doing is cooling down the nozzle and cylinder assembly WAY faster - venting is far more problematic than it ever was in cold weather. So bad that the op-rod is sticking even with Krytox. My feeling is that it's the port design screwing things up - read; LOWER and erratic fps. The gun cant pressurize the nozzle head consistently with the HUGE open area. Funny you should mention that. I still have the older steel nozzle (single 0-ring) and I htink the windows were larger than the brass ones too as I was fiddling around with them last nite. Trying to find the right combo of floating valve, threaded rod, custom nylon spacers I'm toggling around with and nozzle tips to get the perfect FPS level for an OP. Lol. Not the funnest thing to do.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Commando Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Sorry my choice of word got you annoyed. I'm satisfied with the video thank you. I think you may have missed his sarcasm I don't think he was annoyed at you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eliminator56 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hey everyone, I was hoping you guys could help me with a problem. Everything with my WE M4 has been great except one thing, my shots keep hooking either left or right. other then that the hop-up seems to be working good. Now I am using propane, a 480 fps nozzle, and .25g bbs ( I should get a 300 nozzle soon). Is there any advice you guys could give me to stop the hooking? I have been cleaning my barrel religiously, and I've tried to dry up the wet hop-up by using straight propane with no silicon oil added for a while now. Could the erratic hooking be from such a high FPS and smaller bb weight? Any help would be great. One last thing, what FPS readings have you guys been having with the 300 FPS nozzle using propane and .2 bbs? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redline Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hey everyone, I was hoping you guys could help me with a problem. Everything with my WE M4 has been great except one thing, my shots keep hooking either left or right. other then that the hop-up seems to be working good. Now I am using propane, a 480 fps nozzle, and .25g bbs ( I should get a 300 nozzle soon). Is there any advice you guys could give me to stop the hooking? I have been cleaning my barrel religiously, and I've tried to dry up the wet hop-up by using straight propane with no silicon oil added for a while now. Could the erratic hooking be from such a high FPS and smaller bb weight? Any help would be great. One last thing, what FPS readings have you guys been having with the 300 FPS nozzle using propane and .2 bbs? Thanks With that high of an FPS, I'd try a heavier BB. Minimum .28. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hey everyone, I was hoping you guys could help me with a problem. Everything with my WE M4 has been great except one thing, my shots keep hooking either left or right. other then that the hop-up seems to be working good. Now I am using propane, a 480 fps nozzle, and .25g bbs ( I should get a 300 nozzle soon). Is there any advice you guys could give me to stop the hooking? I have been cleaning my barrel religiously, and I've tried to dry up the wet hop-up by using straight propane with no silicon oil added for a while now. Could the erratic hooking be from such a high FPS and smaller bb weight? Any help would be great. One last thing, what FPS readings have you guys been having with the 300 FPS nozzle using propane and .2 bbs? Thanks Do you have the gen2 hopup and chrome barrel? All my problems with hooking went away with the new setup. (.28g bb's) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Funny you should mention that. I still have the older steel nozzle (single 0-ring) and I htink the windows were larger than the brass ones too as I was fiddling around with them last nite. Trying to find the right combo of floating valve, threaded rod, custom nylon spacers I'm toggling around with and nozzle tips to get the perfect FPS level for an OP. Lol. Not the funnest thing to do.... redline,.....do the single o-ring steel nozzles have exactly the same size windows as the 2-oring nozzles? I only have 2 o-ring nozzles here. My buddies new gun came with that. The windows are too large I think. Again >seems< like a good idea, but its creating problems. The floating valve is sometimes shutting too fast becuse of the open area. (no power). Its erratic. His gun is exactly like you dscribed - fps is all over the map - swings as much as 300fps!!!! Switch to brass nozzel, gun fires like a champ. Notice that last week, AB took down ALL nozzles for sale? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eliminator56 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Do you have the gen2 hopup and chrome barrel? All my problems with hooking went away with the new setup. (.28g bb's) I know I do not have a chrome barrel, I have the stock brass barrel. And for the hop up, I have whatever version that comes with the standard V3 from Tactical Horizon. So should I order the chrome barrel with the new hop-up (the green one)? I want to order it from the TS website because of their offer with free international shipping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKRay Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Notice that last week, AB took down ALL nozzles for sale? I've noticed that too, and I'm trying to get mine down from ~500ish to around 300-350ish, would've been useful to get a low power assembly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redline Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I know I do not have a chrome barrel, I have the stock brass barrel. And for the hop up, I have whatever version that comes with the standard V3 from Tactical Horizon. So should I order the chrome barrel with the new hop-up (the green one)? I want to order it from the TS website because of their offer with free international shipping. Don't bother. If you have a V3, then that should technicaly have the new hop-up design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redline Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 redline,.....do the single o-ring steel nozzles have exactly the same size windows as the 2-oring nozzles? I only have 2 o-ring nozzles here. My buddies new gun came with that. The windows are too large I think. Again >seems< like a good idea, but its creating problems. The floating valve is sometimes shutting too fast becuse of the open area. (no power). Its erratic. His gun is exactly like you dscribed - fps is all over the map - swings as much as 300fps!!!! Switch to brass nozzel, gun fires like a champ. Notice that last week, AB took down ALL nozzles for sale? Otto, I don't have the 2-oring style. I do have the stock brass nozzle, and the steel version I bought from TS (or was it AB?). I believe its the older type of steel nozzle...I don't have the gun with me, but when playin around last night, I believe the steel version had "squareish windows", whereas the brass one had oblong/oval shaped ones. I think it had wider "legs". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) I know I do not have a chrome barrel, I have the stock brass barrel. And for the hop up, I have whatever version that comes with the standard V3 from Tactical Horizon. So should I order the chrome barrel with the new hop-up (the green one)? I want to order it from the TS website because of their offer with free international shipping. Yes,..and be sure to order a FEW extra green hop sleeves to go with the chrome barrel. You need to sort through a few sleeves to find a good one that fits properly. I hope to have a wiki entry soon covering the new gen2 hopup system and selecting a good sleeve. I dont think that the WE M4 (or any GBB rifle) will have the 'shot to shot' precision of an aeg, but the new hop and barrel brings it close. Quite acceptable. Redline - Thanks for the info. Id like to have a single o-ring steel nozzle to compare. Cant even get one now. Cant even get ANY nozzles right now since AB took them down from sale. As for elimnators problems, he may or may not have the new generation hop. He needs to be sure. And also, a new gen2 hopup with an ill fitting green hop rubber will perform as badly (or worse) than a gen1 hopup. When I examined three green hop rubbers lined up in front of me - and all were different in size and shape - I knew that this was the reason for the wildly different reviews of the new hopup. It all comes down to the green sleeve fitting smoothly and correctly. Edited May 15, 2009 by rottenotto Quote Link to post Share on other sites
somegirls Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) kinda off the tracks, but I was just browsing through AATVs old reviews and found . At first glance it looks familiar. And these things are "pretty" old. Might this be the origin of the WE system? Oh yeah, disclaimer: No, I don't wanna bash WE. No, not an anti WE conspiracy Pure curiousity. @ otto, I will ship the nozzle out on monday! Edited May 15, 2009 by somegirls Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shinhk Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Actually WE didn't copy AFC's design. Is AFC co-operate with WE to develop this GBB M4. The spare magazine will be half price of WA. Although they never really "copied" anyone's design, they never did their own research and development of the ORIGINAL design without the help of someone else. There were talks of k1custom giving the designs to AFC and AFC was working with WE or whatever. Who knows...and really...who cares. No one else made it easy to get their hands on a gbb rifle with this design. With the vast differences between perfectly working WE M4's and completely useless WE M4's out there, it's almost like buying an SP rifle packaged by WE anyway. Sometimes it works OOTB and sometimes it takes some tweaking to get it running right. But at least now you can own a gas-in-mag GBB system with bolt lock function because it's more easily obtainable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 @ otto, I will ship the nozzle out on monday! THANK YOU my friend! Im trying to get his rifle up and running. You saved the day ; ) OTTO PS... Sun Project is a modified escort system also. It does precede the WE M4. It had the external air rig. I had an SP M4 - it is in my 'top 5 biggest airsoft disappointments' after my SHOEI MP44's. lol...what a piece of krap! The Sun Project came with NO hop up. Funny story,....the day I got it, I fired it out the front door and into the neighbors yard. To my shock and horror, the bb's only went 50 feet and arced straight down onto the trunk of my neighbors brand new car. The gun (like the shoeis) needed hundreds and hundreds of dollars to work right - and in the end, you still had a stupid air hose connected to your rifle. If you dont think that is bothersome, try playing even 20 minutes with an airhose. It sucks. You lose all your freedom of movement. There is a company selling GBB rifles that take regular AEG mags - I forget their name. They dont seem to get it. AEG mags? Great! AIRHOSE!? Are you nuts? No thanks. They will be out of business by the end of summer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
accuracy Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 There is a company selling GBB rifles that take regular AEG mags - I forget their name. They dont seem to get it. AEG mags? Great! AIRHOSE!? Are you nuts? No thanks. They will be out of business by the end of summer. are you talking about Escort's MP5's? they seemed to be pretty successful Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TDS Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 are you talking about Escort's MP5's? they seemed to be pretty successful except they have the same problems as above, need to about double the price to get something decent external gas guns are great for something huge like a SAW or M60 since you are already bogged down, for a rifle, not so much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 are you talking about Escort's MP5's? they seemed to be pretty successful No, not Escort. Obviously I know Escort since I owned a few SHOEI guns which are escort powered. here it is --- DG - OFFERING THE SAME OLD/SAME OLD- WHOOPEE! Basically another Escort/Sun project gun. They have been advertising in our forums news section quite a bit. What they keep missing is people DONT want hoses attached to their gun. Especially after using a "gas in the mag" gun like the WE or WA. Youd never go back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rottenotto Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 ps.... KSC .30g bb's and the new "gen2" hop system DAMN, as good as it gets. I tried other barnds of bb's that hated the new hop system (and the old hopup too). But KSC seems to be the magic surface for the new hopup. Once you get your new hop system installed and dialed in, try KSC .30 bb's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WETTI Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 It's not as bad as it seems Somegirls. I've got Co2 mags for my Hi-Capa and it has the similar screw in system. You can get quite quick at it. It's amazing how fast you can do it under fire! I like the idea of tuning the magazine capacity to suit the output of the capsule. That makes so much sense. WETTI... I assume you're joking, but in case you're not. Sluggish, means slow or laboured. Hey guys.... I was just a light-hearted jab, no pun intended! The Ranger's CO2 guns were just demo-ed at Evike's this afternoon. This may sound a bit corny coming from me, but it was one of the most amazing display of general 'awe-ness' & collective 'you-gotta-be-kidding-me' expressions I've ever seen inside of a store... I will remember forever the smiles that were generated when some of the patrons were offered the chance to try them. My life is just that little bit better after today.... (well... there's another reason as well ) Evike's will have all 3 models of the guns on demo when the Rangers events are completed. Pls contact or visit them if you want to try them out for yourself. I do believe that conversion kits & CO2 mags will be available from them very shortly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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