How Do Hold Your VFG?

[SFCHAVOK]

I full gripped for a long time. Now in the last 6 months, I've started to thumb break it. This works very effectively for me both in shooting real steel and airsoft. I'm going to try one of the new magpul AFG's for a lil bit and see how I like it. Yet I have a feeling I'll stick with a thumb break hold on a VFG.

[kojak]

And you've basically just summed up the Hawaii Airsoft scene...

... I'll let the pictures do the talking (down below).

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2719/418395...ea92074ed_o.jpg

 

It looks stupid but that is probably the most effective way to wield a lightweight recoilless high capacity firearm; if such a thing existed. I'm guilty of the same shenanigans--folding my stock out of the way and holding my G36 in front of my face so that the RDS is in my field of view:

 

 

This is why I want to stick with SMGs, pistols, and stockless shotguns for CQC. I know it's just airsoft but I try to keep my "tactics" as realistic as is feasible.

 

...Now something to keep in mind, and the intention is NOT that of snooty, is that I think a lot of people are valuing comfort at the sake of control. The object of your grip and stance is to achieve as great of positive and direct control as possible when taking the shot....

 

I can only use the AFG if its mounted so far forward that my support arm is almost straight, otherwise my wrist is at a dangerous angle. While it's very stable, it feels less maneuverable. It's more of an airsoft effectiveness thing--you are pretty likely to take fire from any direction, and of course managing recoil is not a concern.

 

It seems like fatigue might also be an issue, especially if the gun is front-heavy. See how long you can hold a weight in front of you with your arm straight and your elbow turned outward, then try it with your arm bent and your elbow pointing down.

 

While it's a lot of fun to practice Magpul-style shooting drills, when I'm out in the airsoft field most of that goes out the window. Crawling in the bushes or trying to keep my footing on the side of a rock, there is very little chance that I'll be able to take a proper shooting stance when it's time to engage.

 

Don't those photos with the M900 look awkward? That thing was designed to be grabbed like a broomstick.

[Skarclaw]

I have a similar set up on my gun, (vertical foregrip with an m6x or whatever just in front), I hold it like that guy and it works fine.

 

I agree though, with airsoft you only need to shoulder it cause its easier to look down your sights with etc, when I need to I'm holding it alll over the place.

[RWJP]

I've gotta say, that last photo Titleist posted looks like the most uncomfortable way to hold a gun that has ever been tried. I can just about see the use of the grips shown in the first two pictures, but that third one is jut utterly ridiculous.

 

I personally find that the grip someone dubbed "Full Retard" is the most comfortable for me, regardless of how people think of me because of it. However, if there's no VFG, it's always a magwell grip with thumb along the handguard.

 

To me, it looks like a heck of a lot of people are jumping on the "OMGZ Chris Costa is a god of rifle shooting" bandwagon, and are imitating his every move as God's honest truth, whilst in real life, what is best for one person is the worst possible thing for another.

[amateurstuntman]

Well, at the end of the day it is just what works for you.

 

Everyone is a different shape and all weapons are a different shape.

 

With my old L85 (real) I would use what was essentially a two-handed pistol grip on the thing with my elbows braced on my mag pouches.

I can stand like that all day and hit a target at 200m so it works.

 

I don't like VFGs since I use the magwell grip and a VFG would just get in the way.

 

However, if someone made an AFG that had a much higher angle (say 45°) and was designed to butt up to the magwell I'd buy that.

The magwell grip thing that you can get is fugly and has finger grooves in it.

Nothing I have ever bought with finger grooves in it has had the finger grooves where my fingers go.

 

I'm not bloody Anne Boleyn what is the matter with these people? The A2 pistol grip is like torture to me...

 

[uscmCorps]

I guess that, as usual, it depends whether a person treats airsoft as a standalone sport or if they just wanna mimic what real-steel shooters do.

Or in some cases, airsofters who are also RS shooters and want to use airsoft as a training aid. Obviously, the vast majority of civilians in the rest of the world (including the UK) don't have RS gun ownership anymore so this wouldn't really apply to them... But personally, I'm getting into RS shooting and attending courses. I have no intention of ceasing to airsoft as it's been my hobby for over 20 years now, however I have noticed my technique has certainly changed over the recent years with RS shooting being the major influence. Airsoft, as fun as it is for me as a hobby/sport, also affords me a certain amount of safe training that I feel a lot of RS shooters could probably benefit from even though many of them automatically discredit the merits of airsoft. There are two sides to that coin: Airsofters play with an understanding that when they get shot they can respawn soon after and therefore they may take risks that a RS shooter would never pursue. On the other hand, RS shooters who exclusively train in a controlled environment shooting targets may learn proper handling and usage, but until they are in a real combat environment, they'll probably never learn how to use those techniques while under fire or at least know how they'd react when under duress. There's also a variety of tactics that most RS civilian shooters don't train for such as flanking, creating ambushes and how to react to ambushes, etc, all of which you learn (or at least experience) through our hobby. Using airsoft, I reinforce the things I've learned in RS and vice versa. Albeit, I have to modify the techniques depending on whether I'm doing airsoft or RS, but to me it's important to try and have a correct stance and handling of the airsoft gun so that I build it into muscle memory.

 

TBH, I suspect that a lot of the "milsim snobs" who're taking the mickey out of "speedsofters" here would probably end up having their asses handed to them by speedballers in a CQB game.

Fact is that speedballers have developed techniques that are optimised for what they do.

It's not pretty and it sure ain't milsim but it's horses for courses.

I have nothing against speedballers. If that's the kind of play they enjoy, more power to them ... but what I don't believe in is when airsofters blindfire. At pretty much every game and major OP I attend, there is a strict no blindfire rule. You have to be able to see what you're shooting at. The reason behind it is that when blindfiring, you may accidentally shoot someone up close or in a manner that might be dangerous. That's one of the main reasons why I brought up that picture ... and to point out the common difference in shouldering techniques between most RS shooters and some airsofters. No snobbery implied.

 

 

[Mainspire]

Agreed. I've been airsofting longer than shooting real firearms, but I don't want to develop bad habits. That kind of ###### can be the difference between life and death in defensive situations. Even if you don't own real firearms or can't because your government doesn't trust you (one of the main reasons I would never live in California or outside the United States), it's good to know how to use one in case the day comes that you need to.

 

99% of the time, you'll never have to pull the trigger of your gun in a defensive situation...But in the 1% that you do, you can't afford to screw up.

[Skarclaw]

Even if you don't own real firearms or can't because your government doesn't trust you (one of the main reasons I would never live in California or outside the United States),

 

Ah yes, the United States, the only country in the world where people are allowed to own firearms...

 

edit

 

I'll try and phrase this in such a way that its not offensive, but yeah what you just said was pretty ignorant. Also before you start talking about "government trust" or whatever, read some of the ridiculous laws that your government has passed which pretty much pillaged your constitution.

[b1indsamurai]

proper meaning "new"?

 

Because its obvious VFG's were designed intending the user to use a full grip.

[Mainspire]

Ah yes, the United States, the only country in the world where people are allowed to own firearms...

 

edit

 

I'll try and phrase this in such a way that its not offensive, but yeah what you just said was pretty ignorant. Also before you start talking about "government trust" or whatever, read some of the ridiculous laws that your government has passed which pretty much pillaged your constitution.

 

Did I say that the United States was the only one? I just said that's one of the reasons I love living here. Name any other nation where you can get an AR-15 or handgun without having to get a license, or pay a massive tax, or any other sort of hole to jump through.

 

The people of your nation allowed your government to take nearly everything that was a "scary" firearm. Hell, they even put control laws on harmless airsoft guns and blades with the VCRA! What next, butter knives? You live in a democracy for the love of God, help by not voting in far-left socialists that think gun control stops crime. You're one to be talking about government trust and control, that's for sure.

 

We're fighting as hard as we here to get the gun-grabbers to stop, but it's going to take time, and we need more support. There are far too many people here that are oblivious to all this nonsense and stripping of rights, especially the youth. But our schooling system is also pretty leftist, and teaches kids how to be a bunch of self-entitled socialists. I should know, I'm still in one.

 

I live in the United States, and possess firearms. It should be a given that I'm aware of the invasive and frivolous laws that are upon us, or are about to fall upon us.

 

And for the record: the second amendment doesn't give us the right to bare arms; it insures our right to. Technically speaking, the government shouldn't have been able to enact gun control laws at all without first barring the 2nd. But you know how the far-left is.

 

Now, let's get back on subject. Fair?

 

proper meaning "new"?

 

Because its obvious VFG's were designed intending the user to use a full grip.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. People realized going full retard was useless for weapon control. But they work nicely as hand stops and angled grips. Don't forget about storage of a spare bolt and pin, or batteries. It's always good to have extras of those.

[uscmCorps]

Ah yes, the United States, the only country in the world where people are allowed to own firearms...

 

edit

 

I'll try and phrase this in such a way that its not offensive, but yeah what you just said was pretty ignorant. Also before you start talking about "government trust" or whatever, read some of the ridiculous laws that your government has passed which pretty much pillaged your constitution.

I'm certainly staying away from the politics of this. I'm simply stating that I use RS guns and airsoft guns, and train on manipulating the airsoft gun as I would a real one so as to build on muscle memory. I know your post was directed at Mainspire, but in case it was in any way fully or in part directed at me too, I brought up the aspect about the US citizen right to firearms to simply point out that citizens in different countries don't all fall into the same cookie cutter categories for airsoft usage. That is all. But I'm absolutely staying away from the politics of this.

 

Edit:

proper meaning "new"?

 

Because its obvious VFG's were designed intending the user to use a full grip.

Proper handling as in the general meaning of it. As in handling the firearm safely, effectively and efficiently. Just because the VFG was designed around the mindset of the user using it with a full grip ... doesn't necessarily mean that is the correct or incorrect usage of it. The VFG is a tool, nothing more. What's important in its usage is that it works best for you, your body type and ergonomics to yield the optimum results. If using it with a full grip works for you then that's the proper way for you. If using it as a handstop works for me, then that's the proper way for me. etc.

[Mainspire]

You go right ahead usmc, I've got this. I enjoy it way too much.

[aznriptide859]

Comon guys, cut the political talk

 

uscm, have you handled the AFG yet?

[uscmCorps]

uscm, have you handled the AFG yet?

I've got five of them sitting on my door step waiting for me to come home. I ordered them a while ago but they were all delayed thanks to holiday shipping.

[Skarclaw]

Did I say that the United States was the only one? I just said that's one of the reasons I love living here. Name any other nation where you can get an AR-15 or handgun without having to get a license, or pay a massive tax, or any other sort of hole to jump through.

 

So you mention that you wouldn't want to live overseas, oh yeah, and also like the one state in the US where they have fairly strict guns laws. Yeah can't see what impression that gives off. As for my government not trusting me? Hell no it doesn't, but I never claimed it did, unlike you, which is what comes across when you say that living out in california or outside of the united states = government not trusting you. By the way, saying that your teaching system just tells kids how to be socialists does nothing for any credibility you might have

 

USCM, honestly, I kinda skimmed through your posts, my post wasn't directed at you at all. But whatever.

[uscmCorps]

USCM, honestly, I kinda skimmed through your posts, my post wasn't directed at you at all. But whatever.

Whatever indeed.

[aznriptide859]

I've got five of them sitting on my door step waiting for me to come home. I ordered them a while ago but they were all delayed thanks to holiday shipping.

 

Let us know what you think of them. Have you heard any news of Magpul releasing FDE ones? That's the only thing holding me back in getting one for my MBR.

 

Comon Skarclaw, quit the and bring out the .

 

Though on a note, I thought you could own firearms in the UK?

[Mainspire]

You can, just not anything fancy like ARs or handguns. Finding ammo there is a sonuvabitch too, as is finding a place to shoot.

[Shift]

Though my ideas aren't really original, telling from the length of the thread, I just felt like sharing my ideas.

I tend to do the "partial" grip. I use my thumb and pointer finger to support the front of the rifle, and the rest of my fingers to hold or lock my hand in place with the VFG. For me that is very confortable and very natural feeling. But I generally find my self doing this while I'm at home or at really long range with a low chance of getting hit; basicly low stress situations. When things are really going down and things are SNAFU, I find my self just grabbing the VFG with my whole hand. Perhaps its my low experiance, but when I grab it with my whole hand I know I have control of my gun; I usually feel that my hand could slip or I have low control if I was useing the partial grip. I guess I'm a little contradictory to some of you guys. Gripping with the whole hand gives me an added sense of security I guess.

 

And on another note, 70ft ranges? You guys are lucky, engagement ranges at my field are usually around the maximum range of our AEG's; 150ft or so. It is like that because there is so little cover. Even at our speed ball court (don't worry, we don't play like those guys on the first page) engagement ranges are around 100ft. The perks of living in a plains state I guess. lol

[Mainspire]

So you mention that you wouldn't want to live overseas, oh yeah, and also like the one state in the US where they have fairly strict guns laws. Yeah can't see what impression that gives off. As for my government not trusting me? Hell no it doesn't, but I never claimed it did, unlike you, which is what comes across when you say that living out in california or outside of the united states = government not trusting you. By the way, saying that your teaching system just tells kids how to be socialists does nothing for any credibility you might have

 

USCM, honestly, I kinda skimmed through your posts, my post wasn't directed at you at all. But whatever.

 

Sorry if it came off that way, but you know what I mean anyways. If you're as informed as you present yourself to be, you should know that.

 

What I was trying to say about schools is that they teach kids to fear guns, and fear anybody who likes or owns guns. Socialism and gun control tend to go hand-in-hand quite a bit.

 

A peace offering, Skarclaw:

 

 

 

 

Okay, anyways...

 

usmc: What in the world would you need five AFGs for? Out of curiosity of course.

[uscmCorps]

When things are really going down and things are SNAFU, I find my self just grabbing the VFG with my whole hand. Perhaps its my low experiance, but when I grab it with my whole hand I know I have control of my gun; I usually feel that my hand could slip or I have low control if I was useing the partial grip. I guess I'm a little contradictory to some of you guys. Gripping with the whole hand gives me an added sense of security I guess.

I think the point that everyone agrees upon is that under stress you used the grip that works for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you were to shoot RS, you may find the full grip to give you less control once you start dealing with actual recoil and muzzle climb. Then again you may not. Point is, your method works for you so use it!

[Stealthbomber]

I'm simply stating that I use RS guns and airsoft guns, and train on manipulating the airsoft gun as I would a real one so as to build on muscle memory.

That a bit like saying "I play volleyball and tennis so I try to hit the tennis ball with my hands in order to stay in practise".

People who drive race-cars and then go out and drive a regular automobile, for example, manage to differentiate between two totally different, but very similar, disciplines without worrying about muscle memory.

 

Sure, go ahead and practise your real-steel drills during airsoft but be aware that it's entirely likely you're gonna get spanked at airsoft by people who make optimal use of their airsoft equipment.

No, it aint milsim but, pfft. Them's the breaks.

 

You go right ahead usmc, I've got this. I enjoy it way too much.

No you haven't cos if I see one more bolshie post from you in this thread I'm gonna suspend your *ss for a month.

 

This thread has ONE chance to return to the original topic.

Any more bullsh*t about the Land Of The Free or about how reel-steal pwns all will result in thread closure.

[Mainspire]

Though my ideas aren't really original, telling from the length of the thread, I just felt like sharing my ideas.

I tend to do the "partial" grip. I use my thumb and pointer finger to support the front of the rifle, and the rest of my fingers to hold or lock my hand in place with the VFG. For me that is very confortable and very natural feeling. But I generally find my self doing this while I'm at home or at really long range with a low chance of getting hit; basicly low stress situations. When things are really going down and things are SNAFU, I find my self just grabbing the VFG with my whole hand. Perhaps its my low experiance, but when I grab it with my whole hand I know I have control of my gun; I usually feel that my hand could slip or I have low control if I was useing the partial grip. I guess I'm a little contradictory to some of you guys. Gripping with the whole hand gives me an added sense of security I guess.

 

Whatever works I suppose. But it may just be a natural reaction for you to grab hold of that broom stick under stress. Keep using the thumb break hold, you'll eventually get used to it. Welcome to Arnies, btw.

 

To Stealthbomber: My apologies. Didn't mean to cause any unsettlements.

 

I have to disagree about your analogy though: Some things are the same animal. It's like riding a horse or riding a pony; not very different.

[Stealthbomber]

I have to disagree about your analogy though: Some things are the same animal. It's like riding a horse or riding a pony; not very different.

It's not the same though, is it?

You can use an airsoft gun as though it was a real-steel gun.

You can operate the charging handle after inserting every mag in your MP5 or you can press that fake bolt-catch on your AR15 too if you want to.

Course, you'll be shot by a guy who doesn't bother.

 

Simple fact is that, due to lack of deadly capability and lack of recoil, we can be a lot more gung-ho about the way we handle airsoft guns.

People who take advantage of this ability ARE always gonna do better at airsoft than those who don't.

[uscmCorps]

That a bit like saying "I play volleyball and tennis so I try to hit the tennis ball with my hands in order to stay in practise".

People who drive race-cars and then go out and drive a regular automobile, for example, manage to differentiate between two totally different, but very similar, disciplines without worrying about muscle memory.

Yeah but I'm not a professional shooter. I'm someone with a deadly weapon in my hand. If I can reinforce safe and efficient handling of a RS weapon using a replica that won't kill someone, I fail to see what's wrong with that. To use your second analogy, it's not a good idea to let a regular driver off the street drive a F1 sports car unless they train to use it safely and effectively. If that same driver reacts with muscle memory in a sports car according to how they would in a regular daily commuter, they could kill someone or themselves.

 

Sure, go ahead and practise your real-steel drills during airsoft but be aware that it's entirely likely you're gonna get spanked at airsoft by people who make optimal use of their airsoft equipment.

No, it aint milsim but, pfft. Them's the breaks.

Funny, after playing for 20+ years against thousands of unique players I have yet to be "spanked". But I will be aware in the future. And I think you missed the part where I mention adapting real steel drills to work for airsoft. It's not like I'm going to drop down behind cover and shoot with my AEG on it's side as the physics behind airsoft are different to that of RS. You've got to understand the limitations of the sport in order to advance in it. There's also a lot more to real steel than just shooting. Things like not flagging someone is often foreign to most airsofters, and yet paramount in real steel. In truth, airsofters shouldn't be flagging each other either but I see it all the time. There's a lot to learn from users on both sides.

 

Simple fact is that, due to lack of deadly capability and lack of recoil, we can be a lot more gung-ho about the way we handle airsoft guns.

People who take advantage of this ability ARE always gonna do better at airsoft than those who don't.

So you really didn't read my posts. Because that is something I pointed out. Like I said multiple times, you've got to understand the limitations of airsoft and ADAPT. I never said I stuck strictly to real steel drills and never deviated when airsoft skirmishing. I did say that I learned from real steel techniques just as I learned from airsoft techniques and applied the best of both when airsofting. One thing real steel drills does teach you which airsofters can benefit from is how to shoot safely without blowing away a friendly. That, I like.