How Do Hold Your VFG?

[RedScare]

People realized going full retard was useless for weapon control.

 

what in in god's name is full retard?

[Mainspire]

It's not the same though, is it?

You can use an airsoft gun as though it was a real-steel gun.

You can operate the charging handle after inserting every mag in your MP5 or you can press that fake bolt-catch on your AR15 too if you want to.

Course, you'll be shot by a guy who doesn't bother.

 

Simple fact is that, due to lack of deadly capability and lack of recoil, we can be a lot more gung-ho about the way we handle airsoft guns.

People who take advantage of this ability ARE always gonna do better at airsoft than those who don't.

 

I kinda like the challenge, actually. It's like playing a game on the highest difficultly. All your opponents never have to yank charging handles or compensate for recoil--pretty much in God mode, but you choose to. It's a great challenge. If I can get a realistic tactical reload done faster than the other guy and take him out, I know I'm headed places.

 

It's all about practice. I don't mind getting demolished if it means I become stronger in the end. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger, right?

 

Wait...How did we get into reloading?

 

what in in god's name is full retard?

 

Wrapping your whole hand around the grip like a broom handle.

 

Yeah but I'm not a professional shooter. I'm someone with a deadly weapon in my hand. If I can reinforce safe and efficient handling of a RS weapon using a replica that won't kill someone, I fail to see what's wrong with that. To use your second analogy, it's not a good idea to let a regular driver off the street drive a F1 sports car unless they train to use it safely and effectively. If that same driver reacts with muscle memory in a sports car according to how they would in a regular daily commuter, they could kill someone or themselves.

 

This is what I was trying to say here earlier before it slipped into the politics of it all.

 

But chances are majority of British airsofters will never have to shoot a real gun for self-defense in their entire life. What I was suggesting is that it certainly can't hurt to establish good habits for both real guns and airsoft guns. Plus, airsoft guns can still do damage (take an eye out is a big one).

 

Here's a good one: ever been shot in the *badger*s with a 600FPS rifle? Not fun (and I was in full gear, fellas).

 

One thing real steel drills does teach you which airsofters can benefit from is how to shoot safely without blowing away a friendly. That, I like.

 

Amen. If I had a nickle for all the times my buddies have shot me in the *albartroth* when sweeping over me...

[Stealthbomber]

Yeah but I'm not a professional shooter. I'm someone with a deadly weapon in my hand. If I can reinforce safe and efficient handling of a RS weapon using a replica that won't kill someone, I fail to see what's wrong with that.

Geez, I already said, I'm happy for you to use airsoft to practice your real steel drills.

Go nuts.

 

All I'm saying is that doggedly sticking to real-steel doctrine is NOT optimal for airsoft.

Taking the p*ss out of people for using AEGs without stocks or holding them at weird angles is unwise because there's a good chance what they're doing is probably developed specifically for the sort of games they're playing in.

 

So you really didn't read my post. Because that is something I pointed out.

TBH, I didn't really see you point out anything.

 

- A bunch of people started getting arsey about what is a "proper" grip on a toy gun.

- Somebody posted a bunch of pictures taking the mickey out of people who are "doing it wrong".

- A few people, including myself, commented that it was a little bit sour to criticise others and I pointed out that the stuff the people in the pic's were doing probably works optimally in their arena.

- You then started up with this whole "Yeah but I want to use airsoft to help train me to shoot a real gun" stuff.

 

 

To be honest, what you're saying sounds a little like one of these boy-racers who goes on about how they always do heel & toe gear shifts in their moms car because it helps them practice their race-driver skillz.

Sure, go ahead.

That doesn't mean you're the best driver in the K-mart car-park.

It means you're a kid who thinks he's Michael Schumacher.

 

 

I really, genuinely, dunno why you're responding to my posts.

Is there some point I'm making that you disagree with?

Are you saying that real-steel doctrine IS going to be superior to an airsoft-specific one during a skirmish?

I'm a little confused TBH.

[Fatal]

There is only 1 correct way to hold a VFG.

 

What's comfortable, and what makes you hit the target without having the weapon go flying out of your hands.

[Victory]

There is only 1 correct way to hold a VFG.

 

What's comfortable, and what makes you hit the target without having the weapon go flying out of your hands.

 

Agreed.

 

-Vic

[Stealthbomber]

There is only 1 correct way to hold a VFG.

 

What's comfortable, and what makes you hit the target without having the weapon go flying out of your hands.

That's kinda what bugs me about the whole Magpul/Costa bandwagon.

 

Costa seems to spend all his time telling people to do things the way that feels best to them and, meanwhile, all the disciples seem intent on mimicking what Costa does and uses as closely as possible.

 

When they made that AOTTC video, I bet Costa wishes he'd asked that other guy with the Oakleys and the goatee beard (and, IIRC, costaclone rifle) to come back on a different day.

[uscmCorps]

All I'm saying is that doggedly sticking to real-steel doctrine is NOT optimal for airsoft.

And I agree with that. You seem to be repeatedly arguing a point no one is bringing up. No one is saying if you don't do it 100% milsim then you might as well be paintballing and real steel technique is the best evar. What we're trying to say is, like the many things in life, the person who takes it all in from the plethora of different resources out there (one of which is real steel methods) and makes educated decisions based on that collected knowledge will have an advantage over the person who doesn't look beyond their limited knowledge.

 

Taking the p*ss out of people for using AEGs without stocks or holding them at weird angles is unwise because there's a good chance what they're doing is probably developed specifically for the sort of games they're playing in.

Wait, when did I take the **** out of people for holding their AEGs at weird angles? If you look back through the thread, you will see that I posted how I felt the most notable difference between the way many real steel shooters and many airsofters handle their guns was how they shouldered their guns. I then went on to clarify that by saying "you don't want to be these guys" I meant that I strongly disproved of blind firing in airsoft (which is essentially what they're doing) as it can be dangerous. I actually brought this particular point up more than once in this thread. Had you read that, you may have come to a different conclusion than the knee jerk one you posted above.

 

- Somebody posted a bunch of pictures taking the mickey out of people who are "doing it wrong".

That would be me who posted the pic, and as stated earlier in this post, that pic wasn't used to take "the mickey" out of them, but merely to show an extreme example of different shouldering techniques and the dangers they may pose in a sport we're trying hard to keep safe so that the legislators have less to attack us on. Now how others interpreted that pic is up to them, I have no control over that, I simply have control over my own views and how I convey them.

 

- A few people, including myself, commented that it was a little bit sour to criticise others and I pointed out that the stuff the people in the pic's were doing probably works optimally in their arena.

Again, optimal in terms of winning, and optimal AND safe are different things. Optimal ... most likely. Safe? Not very in my opinion. You can't guarantee against every danger out there in airsoft, but you can do your best to minimize danger to your fellow player.

 

- You then started up with this whole "Yeah but I want to use airsoft to help train me to shoot a real gun" stuff.

 

To be honest, what you're saying sounds a little like one of these boy-racers who goes on about how they always do heel & toe gear shifts in their moms car because it helps them practice their race-driver skillz.

Sure, go ahead.

That doesn't mean you're the best driver in the K-mart car-park.

It means you're a kid who thinks he's Michael Schumacher.

 

I really, genuinely, dunno why you're responding to my posts.

Is there some point I'm making that you disagree with?

Ummm.... because you're responding to posts I made, it makes sense that I defend my position on the posts I make. Please also note that all my comments about using airsoft as a training tool have been in regard to how they apply and work for me. Others may have different experiences. Furthermore, whether it's your intention or not, your posts by and large seem to depict it's own type of snobbery. Most often epitomized in your comments about real steel shooters and "Costa coffee". If someone doesn't see things the way you do, you come off sounding like not only are they wrong, but they're also idiotic for not seeing things your way. I understand you're a highly opinionated individual and you pursue those opinions with fierce determination. There's a point at which strong opinions are good, and there's also the point at which you hold onto them out of pure stubbornness. I may have strong opinions, but I've always done my very best to show that I'm open to others, what works for me may not for someone else, and while I try to express my thoughts based on the info I've collected over the years they may still be wrong. Your comments are often disrespectful and belittling to others no matter how passive aggressive you try to convey them. The above quote is testament to that.

 

Are you saying that real-steel doctrine IS going to be superior to an airsoft-specific one during a skirmish?

I think I'm going to have to start quoting my previous posts, because you consistently miss my points no matter how concise I try to make them. No, I don't feel real-steel doctrine is superior to an airsoft specific one during an airsoft skirmish. I NEVER SAID THAT. I feel that it's important to absorb as much information from both real steel and airsoft and make educated choices based on that collected knowledge. Flanking after all isn't a airsoft invention. Nor was it a real steel invention. It's origins are based in hunting and gathering. Just because something works in airsoft doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. By gathering more knowledge from outside of airsoft you create more options and lessen the effects of stagnation.

 

That's kinda what bugs me about the whole Magpul/Costa bandwagon.

 

Costa seems to spend all his time telling people to do things the way that feels best to them and, meanwhile, all the disciples seem intent on mimicking what Costa does and uses as closely as possible.

 

When they made that AOTTC video, I bet Costa wishes he'd asked that other guy with the Oakleys and the goatee beard (and, IIRC, costaclone rifle) to come back on a different day.

You do realize you have your own bandwagon don't you? You've made a crusade out of belittling someone you clearly know little about but have judged them purely on what you believe they represent. If you had actually seen ANY of the DVDs Magpul Dynamics put out, you will note that the instructors in those DVDs never said their technique, or any technique is THE right way to do things. They clearly state, several times on each DVD within each DVD set, that this was simply the technique they teach, but in the end you the shooter must use whatever works best for you to achieve optimum results. Isn't it possible people using what Costa teaches is doing so because the guy's got a wealth of knowledge and applied experience ... and people are trying it out to see if it works for them? Mimicking for the sake of idol worship is pointless, even he will tell you that. Applying what he teaches, understanding it's purpose, and seeing if it works for you is what counts. He makes a point to frequently say to students to not blindly follow the instructors directions. It's important to understand what he teaches and if they work for you. And if they don't he'll work with you to find something that does. But he teaches the curriculum that he does because those are techniques he and other operators as well as competitive shooters have found to work well to yield the desired end result. Another point he makes on the second volume is that after the first DVD set came out, everyone was trying to replicate his magazine flicking technique, and how whether or not you flick the magazine is irrelevant, but what's important is that you get the spent magazine out of the gun as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to be ready for a fresh mag, and that method works for him. It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be a technique that works for you and is something that you can repeat consistently. How does all of what he teaches apply to airsoft? In truth, not all of it does by any means. But learning what another person has to share, testing it and deriving your own educated opinion will always have it's merits. Arbitrarily dismissing someone simply because you don't like what you think he might represent is very narrow minded.

 

I'm sure at some point someone will point out that I have guns configured like Costa's. Big deal. Do I care? Not particularly. I tried out the SR16/SR15 layouts because I really liked the look of them. Had I hated the ergonomics of them I would have changed them to suite my needs. As it turns out, I lucked out as I really liked them as they were. But yourself and a handful of other people are very quick to judge those who have SR16s/SR15s setup even remotely similar to Costa's or Haley's as Costa Fanboys .... drinking the Costa Coolaid. Quite frankly, it's petty and not much different than the school yard bully picking on the kids who did things differently than the way he/she liked. Seriously. Get over it. This is airsoft. Pretty much everything about airsoft is based on mimicry in some shape or form be it the guns, the gear or the tactics. Who the heck cares if someone uses something you don't like? Ignore it. I witnessed a boy in his early teens at my last MilSim game with a full length M14, a M203 long mounted on TOP of it and a Nerf rocket sticking out the front. It stuck in my mind because it was one of the more random things I've seen in recent years, but do I care? Not really. He's having fun with it and that's all that matters.

 

If you're going to post reactively to what people say, at least have the courtesy to read what they're actually posting and fully comprehending what they're saying rather than posting whatever you think they might have said. Especially when they've given you enough respect to carefully read what you have said.

[Stealthbomber]

...because you consistently miss my points no matter how concise I try to make them...

Jeepers.

 

I'd hate to see you when you're feeling verbose.

 

You do realize you have your own bandwagon don't you? You've made a crusade out of belittling someone you clearly know little about but have judged them purely on what you believe they represent.

Erm, you've got some cheek to accuse me of not reading other peoples posts.

 

You just quoted me as saying that Costa recommends that people DO WHAT SUITS THEM.

The ironic part is the way his acolytes completely ignore this advice and, instead, slavishly copy what he does and uses.

How does that belittle Magpul or Chris Costa?

 

Beyond that, I'm not even gonna bother responding to War & Peace up there.

[Talonclaw117]

Oh, this thread makes me laugh. Stealthbomber, can't you just close this thread?

[Stealthbomber]

Oh, this thread makes me laugh. Stealthbomber, can't you just close this thread?

Cos, TBH, it's kinda interesting for the most part.

 

The problem is that it involves The Kevlar Beard and, as such, emotions are gonna run high amongst His disciples.

 

My own interest really only extends as far as not taking the mickey out of people who aren't members of the Church Of Magpul.

Long as that doesn't happen it can remain open for as long as anybody cares.

 

 

[renegadecow]

Picked something up from a different forum of the same topic, thought I'd share a laugh:

The MagPul FAG (Forward Assault Grip)

 

and a word from Magpul themselves by Dr Drake

 

"In light of several comments floating around the web on different forums reference the AFG I'm tossing the below up in a few places.

 

 

Clarification;

 

Let me make it perfectly clear. Our intent is not to replace your VFG with an AFG. Our intent is to bring a new concept to market, push the boundaries of design and fill a void in the forward grip market. Some might argue that we're creating the "void" and this is all a marketing hype product. Have we ever done that with any product? We will continue to stand by our products and the theories behind them.

 

Fan Boys;

 

We have fan boys and hey, hats off, we love them. But don't ever think we build products for the FB's. They want the best products money can buy just like Mil, LE, casual shooters and competition shooters. Can you blame them? We build real world, high quality, boundary pushing kit period. No hype, no BS.

 

Okay back to my lair where the rest of my secret squirrel marketing team is hard at work on the next gimmick.....mmmuuuhhahahahahaha"

[Cancel]

I have to admit the backing of the "paintsoft/speedsoft" way of doing things is astonishing. I honestly thought all of arnies was gungho milsim guys.

 

When I train with my team or when others ask to train or play with us I explain that we take things from the real world and then tailor them to airsoft because it needs to be. Stealth made a good distinction saying if you hit your bolt release or rack the charging handle that's seconds you're spending where someone else who doesn't can move. Another for instance, BBs don't go through people, thus human shields work amazingly well while walking down a narrow hallway. They may not appreciate it but if it gets you one room closer, strong work.

 

I was taught to hold the magwell because VFG's give you no control over recoil on RS and with the magwell you can pull the rifle down. (this was back with the 'full retard' grip. Horrible name by the way, RS shooters can be toolbags) Someone, I think USMC said, you will revert back to whatever is most comfortable/something else in times of duress. I may hold my rifle the "magpul" grip when i'm standing around or running but surely enough when SHTF and I've seen pictures of it, I'm holding the magwell.

 

Recently at a CQB game, I had a standard M4 with the clamshell and I was holding it the whole magpul arm extended bit and my arm and wrist got tired rather quickly.

[Chimpy]

Stealth - You come across as the polar opposite of the Magpul fanbois. Not so sure that's a great position either. Either that or you are intentionally trolling!

 

You complain about people taking the ###### out of that previous speedball photo but how is your treatment of people that want to emulate the Magpul stuff any different? The key factor is you think one is okay and the other is stupid.

 

The biggest point that always occurs to me in these snobbery-esque conversations (e.g. Geardos, Milsim) is that for every group that likes to do something there is another group equally opposed to the idea. It's hilariously sad that people can't live and let live without feeling the need to belittle or take the ###### out of someone for doing something different, kooky or that you feel is stupid.

 

People need to stop, think and walk a mile in the other guys shoes for once.

[Chimpy]

Anyway on topic, my grip evolved up the VFG until approximately what ended up as the thumb-break grip, mostly because it felt better to move the gun around and made a lot of sense to me to have my hands leverage up by the bore and out as far as possible.

 

The answer to any of these technique things is use whatever is appropriate for the situation you find yourself in.

 

Cancel - It's, "under stress you'll revert to your default level of training" or similar. Meaning unless you actually train yourself to use a certain technique you won't use it under stress. Muscle memory requires quite a large number of repetitions to ingrain especially if you are retraining.

[Stealthbomber]

Stealth - You come across as the polar opposite of the Magpul fanbois. Not so sure that's a great position either. Either that or you are intentionally trolling!

 

...etc...

 

It's not Magpul fanboys I object to. It's any kind of fanboy.

 

Whenever I see zealots (and I'm not talking about this topic in particular) trying to browbeat others with their POV I tend to look at the other POV and, if I see any merit in it, I'll put in my 2 cents.

 

As a "moderator" on a forum, I have a responsibility to ensure that one POV does not get shoved down everybody's throat while people with a different POV gets belittled or ridiculed.

 

As you say, live and let live.

 

*EDIT*

Just to be crystal clear, I've watched both Magpul DVDs and I found them both very interesting and Costa seems to be a smart cookie full of good ideas.

 

The issue I have with the whole Magpul bandwagon is the people who watch 4 hours of training from one of the smartest practical shooters in the world and all they take away from it is "I wanna bolt a bunch of magpul bits on my blaster".

[Chimpy]

As a "moderator" on a forum, I have a responsibility to ensure that one POV does not get shoved down everybody's throat while people with a different POV gets belittled or ridiculed.

 

Then you might want to watch how you do that as it reads in this thread like you are belittling people that want to emulate Chris Costa's rifles or anything Magpul related.

 

Plus you and usmcCorps are agreeing with one another if you are of the "live and let live" opinion.

[Chimpy]

The issue I have with the whole Magpul bandwagon is the people who watch 4 hours of training from one of the smartest practical shooters in the world and all they take away from it is "I wanna bolt a bunch of magpul bits on my blaster".

 

So what? If that's what they want to take away from watching it then what's actually wrong with that? Live and let live...

[Stealthbomber]

Plus you and usmcCorps are agreeing with one another if you are of the "live and let live" opinion.

I have actually been SAYING that to uscmCorps in pretty much every post I've made on the subject.

 

Seriously, read back through my posts. I keep on saying, first to him and now to you, that if people want to make use of firearms doctrine in airsoft that's their choice.

 

So what? If that's what they want to take away from watching it then what's actually wrong with that. Live and let live...

Go look at the picture threads. There are plenty of people criticising all the Costaclones. I'm not amongst them. Live and let live...

[Chimpy]

I have actually been SAYING that to uscmCorps in pretty much every post I've made on the subject.

 

Seriously, read back through my posts. I keep on saying, first to him and now to you, that if people want to make use of firearms doctrine in airsoft that's their choice.

 

Yes, I just said you agreed with each other on that point.

 

Go look at the picture threads. There are plenty of people criticising all the Costaclones. I'm not amongst them. Live and let live...

 

So? Your attitude here is self-admittedly that:

 

"The issue I have with the whole Magpul bandwagon is the people who watch 4 hours of training from one of the smartest practical shooters in the world and all they take away from it is "I wanna bolt a bunch of magpul bits on my blaster"."

 

Which doesn't sound very live and let live and combined with some of the comments you've made as I highlighted previously when I said that, "you might want to watch how you do that [present a opposite POV for balance] as it reads in this thread like you are belittling people that want to emulate Chris Costa's rifles or anything Magpul related."

 

Basically your own "issue" is shining through in the way you've presented the opposing point of view which is probably why it has resolved in a way that is incredibly confrontational.

[Titleist]

I've gotta say, that last photo Titleist posted looks like the most uncomfortable way to hold a gun that has ever been tried. I can just about see the use of the grips shown in the first two pictures, but that third one is jut utterly ridiculous.

 

Yikes, I'm staying out of this side argument, so I'll keep it to what was directed at me a few pages back (I apologize for the slow response, not having a computer can cause that).

 

I grip my rifles as far forward as I can, thus when I gun turret I can swing by gun left or right and be able to squash that momentum as quick as possible. It LOOKS awkward but it doesn't feel it. As I said before I'm still on the fence about the AFG. There's a lot of magpul products I like, and quite a few I really don't (XTM panels, MOE handguards, PRS stocks, etc). Again how I run my guns is different than how a lot of people run their airsoft guns. I'm not humping my rifles up and down hills all the times and thus if I was my grip might be a more of a compromise. You can obviously overcome bad stance and grip with pure determination, but having a good solid grip and stance translates in to reliability and accuracy in a high stress situation. There's a big difference when trying to hit a 175yd target when your heart rate is spiked and you're shooting off the side of a barricade.

 

The one thing that also strikes me as odd, is that folks who claim to be real steel shooters here are making binary evaluations of grips like "this works" or "this doesn't." without establishing a baselines of their experience levels or how they use their rifles. Frankly I can do just fine broomsticking my rifles, or magwell grips, if the extent of my experience is shooting off a bench. Frankly that's not what AFGs, TD stubbies, KAC handstops, etc were intended to be used for. I see a lot of guys posting photos of their real steel shooting trips, and it's shooting off a hill or at a tree, and frankly (and again I don't mean to be snooty) this gives a bit too much weight to HOW that person is using their rifle. Frankly the way I see MOST real gun owners shoot would only be at 1/100th of the physical demands that airsofters take on when skirmishing.

[Stealthbomber]

So? Your attitude here is self-admittedly that:

 

"The issue I have with the whole Magpul bandwagon is the people who watch 4 hours of training from one of the smartest practical shooters in the world and all they take away from it is "I wanna bolt a bunch of magpul bits on my blaster"."

 

Which doesn't sound very live and let live and combined with some of the comments you've made as I highlighted previously when I said that, "you might want to watch how you do that [present a opposite POV for balance] as it reads in this thread like you are belittling people that want to emulate Chris Costa's rifles or anything Magpul related."

 

Basically your own "issue" is shining through in the way you've presented the opposing point of view which is probably why it has resolved in a way that is incredibly confrontational.

I'm really not sure what your point is.

 

This isn't a court of law or a Vulcan ceremony.

It's an internet forum.

I expressed my opinion, such as it is.

That's kinda what a forum is used for.

 

You've now wasted the best part of half a page establishing something that I would have thought is completely obvious.

[ktk_ace]

imho anything that suits me (ie gives me an advantage)

 

one man's VFG is another's poison...

[Chimpy]

I'm really not sure what your point is.

 

This isn't a court of law or a Vulcan ceremony.

It's an internet forum.

I expressed my opinion, such as it is.

That's kinda what a forum is used for.

 

You've now wasted the best part of half a page establishing something that I would have thought is completely obvious.

 

Actually I thought you were acting as a moderator which is what you said you were doing.

 

As a "moderator" on a forum, I have a responsibility to ensure that one POV does not get shoved down everybody's throat while people with a different POV gets belittled or ridiculed.

 

Anyway you've tied yourself in knots so far so shall we leave it?

[ktk_ace]

i'll grab the popcorn and a seat and watch MOD VS TROLL.

 

live entertainment .

[L4byr1nth]

Yeah, have a day off Chimpy

 

I object to people taking *I use homophobic slurs and want to get banned* and Chris Costa's word as gospel.

 

Although I only have limited real steel experience, I do know that the more comfortable you are, the more likely your shot is going to go where you want it.

 

That grip looks two things;

 

1./ Uncomfortable

 

and

 

2./ Like you're not in full control of the weapon

 

I'm sure that the above isn't actually the case, but if Magpul's new product really is as awesome-epic-win as Titleist and uscmCorps reckon it is (you *I use homophobic slurs and want to get banned* addicts, you ), then I'm sure we'll see it fitted to everything from bolt actions to LMG's.

 

Or, it's not, and the only people sticking with them will be total geardo whores.

 

Either way, I myself am a bolt action enthusiast, and as such don't need or use a VFG. I've tried one on several of my guns, and it is no different to me than holding the foregrip... Also, I feel much less like I'm pointing the gun and controlling where the shots go, and more like a twat holding a short pole with a gun bolted to the top.

 

Ben.