M14 GBB !

[uscmCorps]

At least give an option to get higher quality parts for key components like the trigger group, it's a major fault that still persists and the solution is very simple, either manufacture yourself or join with a third party to produce them for you and sell it as an upgrade kit.

 

There are many other companies that use this to gain extra income and at the same time give costumers what they want.

I understand your perspective on this but IMO, if a company knows a collection of components within a product is going to fail quickly and with a high frequency when used in the intended parameters it was designed for, and they knowingly release it with the assumption that they can milk more money out of the customer later on with "upgrade parts" ... I'd find that more irksome and would drive me away quicker than anything else. Unforeseeable issues that aren't evident with extensive T&E will still come up. That happens all the time. Whether or not a company knew about those issues is what concerns people as does how the company addresses those issues when they arise. If you've got to cut corners to keep cost down, cut the right ones. Reliability and durability aren't one of those. Like WhiteHawksan said, if it cost an extra $20 to get it done right the first time, then so be it. Repairing something that should never had to be repaired in the first place is what ticks people off.

[Seraphim989]

I am also willing to pay more but only to make sure it works. I dont want to pay tons extra for a CNCed receiver, when a cast one would do perfectly well. As was said earlier, internals are more important than externals.

[danielsilva]

I understand your perspective on this but IMO, if a company knows a collection of components within a product is going to fail quickly and with a high frequency when used in the intended parameters it was designed for, and they knowingly release it with the assumption that they can milk more money out of the customer later on with "upgrade parts" ... I'd find that more irksome and would drive me away quicker than anything else. Unforeseeable issues that aren't evident with extensive T&E will still come up. That happens all the time. Whether or not a company knew about those issues is what concerns people as does how the company addresses those issues when they arise. If you've got to cut corners to keep cost down, cut the right ones. Reliability and durability aren't one of those. Like WhiteHawksan said, if it cost an extra $20 to get it done right the first time, then so be it. Repairing something that should never had to be repaired in the first place is what ticks people off.

 

I do understand your point and it is a valid one, but being in the manufacturing industry myself i understand the problem. The thing is, a QUALITY trigger group manufactured on the quantity's of this industry wouldn't be just a $20 difference, they could still build a better trigger group without raising too much the price but the small raise in price would reflect on the product itself, the quality wouldn't be much higher.

 

Don't get me wrong i wouldn't mind paying 50€ extra and have quality machined steel parts on the trigger group but that isn't realistic because most potencial buyers wouldn't feel the same. The market is getting saturated and while the WE isn't very expensive, cheaper alternatives ( even if inferior ) are beginning to be available and a $50 or $70 increase on price would start to get to be WA prices.

 

Unless RA-Tech comes and gives me a good, quality machined steel trigger group for 50€ or less to prove me wrong, no small increase in price would give me what i want. Look at the TSC ones .. just the sear itself costs the price increase you refer and they are ######!

 

Point is, i prefer to have a upgrade kit available even if as a separate product than to have no solution at all like the present situation. I have 2 WE GBBR's and planning to buy another one, they function fine and the only thing missing is exactly that, a good quality trigger pack, one of the most critical parts.

[WhiteHawksan]

I think you're missing a point there, I assure you that $20 worth of steel and machining does not go into the TSC sear, 99% of that is markup to recover R&D and tooling costs. However, if WE were to do it then they would be able to lower the price as they would be producing in much greater bulk, as every WE M14 would have one

[uscmCorps]

It doesn't have to be machined steel. It just has to work and not fail. The WA has it's own problems, but I've yet to hear the trigger pack being one of them. Yes, yes I know the WA, WOC and all the variants are more expensive than the WE. My point is that the trigger assembly doesn't have to be made from the most expensive materials and the most expensive techniques possible (as can be seen in the WA and WOC models). They just need to be decent.

 

I've got a lot of friends and acquaintances in the airsoft industry. I understand how complex the manufacturing process can be and how much money gets poured into these projects. More money spent up front definitely hurts in the present, but in the long run you save so much grief to both yourself and the customer it can be worth it. Knowingly putting out a product with parts that will fail at a high rate and quickly will cost any manufacturer more than sales. I've seen reputations destroyed that way. A little more money spent on R&D and a little less money back in the profit margin may not seem like a great choice, but it can also elevate a company's stature in the eyes of the consumer from that of mediocrity to greatness. That's how you build lifelong customers. You need to think about the long term.

[danielsilva]

I think you're missing a point there, I assure you that $20 worth of steel and machining does not go into the TSC sear, 99% of that is markup to recover R&D and tooling costs. However, if WE were to do it then they would be able to lower the price as they would be producing in much greater bulk, as every WE M14 would have one

 

Thing is WE would have the same initial costs than TSC or any other company, the current parts are made in a totality different manufacturing process and as such they would still have very high set up costs to recover from. It just not as simple as changing the building materials.

 

It doesn't have to be machined steel. It just has to work and not fail. The WA has it's own problems, but I've yet to hear the trigger pack being one of them. Yes, yes I know the WA, WOC and all the variants are more expensive than the WE. My point is that the trigger assembly doesn't have to be made from the most expensive materials and the most expensive techniques possible (as can be seen in the WA and WOC models). They just need to be decent.

 

Your comparing two different systems with very different needs, if we were talking about using exclusively propane i would have to agree with you. My parts haven't had much problem with the use of propane, the same quality as found on the G&P WOC ( WA ones are ###### tbh .. i should know ) would suffice but the problem is that you're not remembering that one of the "strong" points of the WE's platform is the ability of running CO2 from the get go, something you need to account for and something that is completely missing from the WA platform.

 

The pressure and stress that CO2 introduces is substantial and while i don't think a very high quality steel would have to be used, a fairly good grade of steel should be necessary to keep the trigger group functioning properly with CO2 for a long time.

 

I just think it's funny for WE/WETTI to come and say the products are fine, the M14 will be a success and they have been given great reports from the HK416 when it's trigger group is basically the same i can find on my M4 v1 and that it still suffers from the same problem.

[DiscoBiscuit]

The more GBBRs the better...

 

Indeed, behold the innovative powers of competition. These things will be rock solid in 2 years...well, lets make it 5.

[DiscoBiscuit]

I understand your perspective on this but IMO, if a company knows a collection of components within a product is going to fail quickly and with a high frequency when used in the intended parameters it was designed for, and they knowingly release it with the assumption that they can milk more money out of the customer later on with "upgrade parts" ... I'd find that more irksome and would drive me away quicker than anything else. Unforeseeable issues that aren't evident with extensive T&E will still come up. That happens all the time. Whether or not a company knew about those issues is what concerns people as does how the company addresses those issues when they arise. If you've got to cut corners to keep cost down, cut the right ones. Reliability and durability aren't one of those. Like WhiteHawksan said, if it cost an extra $20 to get it done right the first time, then so be it. Repairing something that should never had to be repaired in the first place is what ticks people off.

 

amen to that

[renegadecow]

Knowingly putting out a product with parts that will fail at a high rate and quickly will cost any manufacturer more than sales.

The way I see it is that some parts (the trigger pack in this case) just didn't wind up enough breakage reports for WE to take notice and change unlike other parts. The charging handle and bolt stop for instance were two things that broke so easily much to the point that they were assured to break only after a couple hundred rounds and so they made the necessary changes. On the flip side, It wasn't only until past 7000 rounds (roughly a year) of use did my trigger give way, but even then, all it took was 30 minutes and a little file job and it was working normally again, hopefully for another 7000 rounds more. Even if they do break beyond repair, a new set only costs under $20 so it's not much of a biggie. It's the after market trigger packs that raise more of a concern but WE can't be blamed for that. There are of course reports of trigger pack breakages much earlier than mine, but I don't think the numbers were enough for WE to take notice and dismissed it as a QC or lemon rate rather than a flawed design or material.

[silent_hill]

looks awesome

[Donut]

Maybe now we can have some "real" JAE100's :/

[-=OGGY=-]

WETTI, if you are not making the receiver and other parts out of steel, at least try to finish the external parts in a dark grey color to make it look like parkerized steel.

 

All the AEG M14's on the market are black while the real M14 has a dark grey finish on the metal parts. (I am speaking of the USGI M14). I dark grey finish will look much better and will provide a bit of a comprimise if the gun won't be steel.

 

A good reference picture to see the receiver finish: http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/gallery/album...M14NM.sized.jpg

In my eyes hard anodized aluminum would be the next best alternative to steel, although I understand it can be expensive aswell.

[RayL]

The way I see it is that some parts (the trigger pack in this case) just didn't wind up enough breakage reports for WE to take notice and change unlike other parts. The charging handle and bolt stop for instance were two things that broke so easily much to the point that they were assured to break only after a couple hundred rounds and so they made the necessary changes. On the flip side, It wasn't only until past 7000 rounds (roughly a year) of use did my trigger give way, but even then, all it took was 30 minutes and a little file job and it was working normally again, hopefully for another 7000 rounds more. Even if they do break beyond repair, a new set only costs under $20 so it's not much of a biggie. It's the after market trigger packs that raise more of a concern but WE can't be blamed for that. There are of course reports of trigger pack breakages much earlier than mine, but I don't think the numbers were enough for WE to take notice and dismissed it as a QC or lemon rate rather than a flawed design or material.

 

The trigger pack never broke in most cases. It just fails to perform as it was intended to, sure the gun still shoots but since when is the M4 a full auto support gun??? The pot metal trigger pack would be just fine if it were dropped in an M249 or RPK GBBR since there would be no need for semi-auto.

 

As far as replacement goes, part price is not the problem. I have absolutely no problem buying replacements. The real problem is where to buy the god damned parts. Who knows how long it's been since the release of their V1 M4 and we still can't even purchase WE replacement body (receivers, outer barrels, etc...) parts.

 

Also, if you've noticed, "WETTI" mysteriously goes blind when any discussion regarding the trigger pack issue comes up.

[danielsilva]

The trigger pack never broke in most cases. It just fails to perform as it was intended to, sure the gun still shoots but since when is the M4 a full auto support gun??? The pot metal trigger pack would be just fine if it were dropped in an M249 or RPK GBBR since there would be no need for semi-auto.

 

As far as replacement goes, part price is not the problem. I have absolutely no problem buying replacements. The real problem is where to buy the god damned parts. Who knows how long it's been since the release of their V1 M4 and we still can't even purchase WE replacement body (receivers, outer barrels, etc...) parts.

 

Also, if you've noticed, "WETTI" mysteriously goes blind when any discussion regarding the trigger pack issue comes up.

 

Although i fault the trigger pack as one of the main problems on any WE GBBR, i'm particularly pointing the finger on it only when CO2 is used, on propane i find it to function correctly. My V1 still has it's original trigger pack and i just filed the trigger a bit as precaution ( it wasn't displaying any symptoms of failure ), my problem with the trigger pack is the use CO2 and the wear it causes to the trigger pack, my M16 has no much more than 1k rounds and yet shows the same or more wear than my v1 M4 with much more than 10k rounds on it!

 

Although there are a few parts i can't get my hands on ( complete BCG or receivers ) most parts, specially critical ones, i can find them easily within Europe.

Don't believe me ?

 

 

And that's a small part of my home stock, still have 2 more and bigger boxes/containers of spare parts just for the WE's. If you're wondering why i have many, let's just say i have my fair share of GBBR's

And yes i have/so the same to ALL my GBB's.

[-=OGGY=-]

I'm no mod but can you guys please stop talking about your WE M4's? There are plenty of threads for that; this thread is for the M14.

 

-OGGY

[WhiteHawksan]

WETTI, if you are not making the receiver and other parts out of steel, at least try to finish the external parts in a dark grey color to make it look like parkerized steel.

 

All the AEG M14's on the market are black while the real M14 has a dark grey finish on the metal parts. (I am speaking of the USGI M14). I dark grey finish will look much better and will provide a bit of a comprimise if the gun won't be steel.

 

A good reference picture to see the receiver finish: http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/gallery/album...M14NM.sized.jpg

In my eyes hard anodized aluminum would be the next best alternative to steel, although I understand it can be expensive aswell.

 

to be fair, I'd rather have meh externals, black aluminium is fine by me and quality internals and be able to buy a forged steel receiver later rather than sacrifice internal quality for external finish to reach the WE price point

[Cubeman]

to be fair, I'd rather have meh externals, black aluminium is fine by me and quality internals and be able to buy a forged steel receiver later rather than sacrifice internal quality for external finish to reach the WE price point

 

+1 to this

 

Externals are more common then internals. Hell even replace some of it with real steel if the dimensions are right

[cent101]

Regarding manufacturing processes etc if KJW could price their M4 at 289USD by using quality internals only where needed and lesser grade materials on other places, i dont personally see why we couldnt have a M14 priced at <500USD (preferably closer to 300) that has all the right quality materials. Pot metal parts that are subject to recoil induced movement is not good, but neither do they need to be CNCd super-grade steel either. But i think WE should know a thing or two about stuff like that after having designed one or two GBBRs already. i'm just keeping my fingers crossed for this one to be real good.. Oh and please try to keep the price of mags down, over 45USD is like A LOT in my book. I think KJW shows the way by having affordable mags that are really good for their M4.

[danielsilva]

I'm no mod but can you guys please stop talking about your WE M4's? There are plenty of threads for that; this thread is for the M14.

 

-OGGY

 

I don't know about you but i'm posing a legit concern about the trigger pack found on all WE GBBR's, don't think the M14 will be any different. If we are talking about the M4 is because it is the most common gun found from WE.

 

Point is, we're just showing concern about a particular problem of WE's platform, which i'm sure the M14 will suffer from it too unless something REALLY radical happens to WE manufacturing strategy ...

[WhiteHawksan]

well I'm all for the fact that they've read the topic and will hopefully post up some nice juicy post saying it will have a non-monkey metal trigger group.

[apmaman]

I just hope it comes in a well packed box. Not a cardboard box with a loose shaped hole where everything wobbles around.

[bjorn]

I just hope it comes in a well packed box. Not a cardboard box with a loose shaped hole where everything wobbles around.

 

LoL?

 

B.

[IronWolf]

GBB MK14 Teaser

 

Manufacturer unconfirmed, however considering the news source odds are that its a WE...

[christhesecond]

Please be light as a feather

[bjorn]

Please be light as a feather

 

 

QFT! This is still airsoft. In the end of the day all those M82A1 users will go back to the good old feather weight VSR that still outperforms anything else on the market.

 

Bjorn