BAILIFFS ARE HARRESSING ME!

[Punkypink]

Because government people are often friends to the posh tosh who run most big businesses, and thus have an interest in helping businesses earn as much at the expense of the common people as possible. They then help the common people after they've been completely trampled into the dirt because not doing so is political suicide as far as winning votes are concerned.

[Chimpy]

As a locksmith I have been on more than one repossession job with bailiffs, and I have yet to see a police man or council official present.

Thou I HAVE insisted on seeing and reading the appropriate paperwork before I unlock the place.

 

Cheers, I'll have to remember that for the future.

 

To be fair, I'm sick and tired of the council so last thing I want to do is go down there. Instead, I'm going to let my councilors, one from the Green Party, and 2 from Labour, fall over each other in their attempt to get this sorted on my behalf and "win" my vote

 

You're better off doing it yourself. The elected councilors will be pretty busy and may not have much more time to sort this out. More over they will still have to pass it on to the full time staff in the Council Tax office to sort out. These people as you've found in the past can be pretty petty minded and bureaucratic. However persistence usually wins against incompetence and the only person that really cares about getting this resolved is you. Denying your best option for a speedy solution seems a little silly. Of course if they still fob you off, document it all and take it to the local paper.

 

The other thing that occurred to me is to genuinely make sure you and everyone else that has lived in the flat (on the lease) over that time period definitely don't owe anything. For example my girlfriend has gone straight from finishing her degree into a masters however during the overlap between courses she wasn't considered to be a student and so had to pay a months council tax between ending her degree and moving in with me. Which is somewhat *suitcase* as she is self supporting and was not entitled to claim benefits towards it as she was outside of the country with the University!

 

Inept officials - no surprise there, then.

 

Who elects these people? Honestly?

 

No one they are full time employees of the council which makes them very hard to fire for being incompetent which only enhances the jobsworthness of a certain type of person.

 

It would seem that herein lies the problem. Passing off collection of government debt to a third-party, for-profit outfit creates a vested interest in collection that didn't exist before. Government (at least in theory, corrupt politicians aside) is a non-profit enterprise. They aren't out to maximize their profit, just to collect what the law says you owe. They haven't "lost" anything if you prove you aren't liable. The bailiffs, on the other had, are out to make as much money as they can, and have lost that if it turns out you don't owe. They aren't concerned with law, or justice - just with taking as much of your stuff as they can. It creates a situation ripe for abuse and profiteering.

 

Of course, it can be argued that debt collection like this is the norm for credit cards, bank loans, mortgages, etc. The difference there, as I see it, is that these are commercial transactions one enters into of one's own willing accord. There seems to me to be something fundamentally wrong with applying these commercial methods to the relationship between citizens and their government, which besides being much less voluntary, exists at least nominally in part to provide protection against injustice.

 

If the situation was handled in house they'd need a specific department to deal with it and wouldn't gain revenue back from being able to sell the debt on both of which would increase local taxes. It's not in the Councils interest to send debt on that a person isn't liable for as all the fees charged by the debt agency have to be paid by them in the event the person demonstrates they are not liable. This can of course lead to the sort of thinking that makes Council Tax offices drag their heels in the hopes that you just pay up which is essentially what debt agencies do but substituting enforced laziness with a bit of casual intimidation. Neither are particularly right in a moral sense but it can be the reality of the situation.

[Xaccers]

So if I offer my car to someone for £800 and tell them tomorrow its going in autotrader for £1000 then I'm a scammer am I?

 

As for the time they turned up it makes no difference does it? If they'd arrived in the morning you'd still have told them to sod off right?

 

As for asking councillors to intervene, that's great, but don't stop fighting yourself.

It's your problem to sort out. It doesn't matter if you hate visiting the council, you just get on and do it and demand to see more senior people until it's sorted.

[Punkypink]

So if I offer my car to someone for £800 and tell them tomorrow its going in autotrader for £1000 then I'm a scammer am I?

 

As for the time they turned up it makes no difference does it? If they'd arrived in the morning you'd still have told them to sod off right?

 

As for asking councillors to intervene, that's great, but don't stop fighting yourself.

It's your problem to sort out. It doesn't matter if you hate visiting the council, you just get on and do it and demand to see more senior people until it's sorted.

If you're putting undue pressure on someone by combining that with other tactics then it becomes scamming, according to the OFT, yes. Hey why you arguing this with me? OFT made the regulations, not me

 

No, the time they turned up made plenty of difference. If they'd arrived earlier I could have contacted the council office. If they're honest about it, why do they need to make sure that avenue of action is not available to me?

 

Don't worry, I haven't stopped fighting. Only instead of visiting the council office I'm blowing the matter up.

 

You seem like a total *dampsuitcase*

 

I just got a PM from this moron. Can anyone tell me wtf is this guy's problem? I'd have thought Swedes were quite socially advanced, this guy's behaving like a total mesolithic sexist jerk. Is it because his manhood is on the small side?

[Tuthmose]

So if I offer my car to someone for £800 and tell them tomorrow its going in autotrader for £1000 then I'm a scammer am I?

 

No.

 

On the other hand, you show up at some house at random, because your boss told you the gal living there wanted to buy a car. The baffled resident points out that she is in fact not interested, and don't even have a driver's license. Instead of double-checking your lead, you become belligerent, insist that she DOES need a car, and tell her if she doesn't buy it now on the spot for £800 you are going to just break into her garage tomorrow, leave the car, and then dun her for £1000 . . . that would make you a scammer.

 

Which, silly as the analogy is, is a lot closer to what gives here.

 

It also illustrates my earlier point. You, the car salesman, don't have the means to check if she has a driver's license even if you wanted to, because you aren't an employee of the Department of Motor Vehicles and can't access those records. You wouldn't care to even if you could, because if it turns out she is telling the truth, then you don't get to sell the car and make a profit. You're there to extract monies - as much money as you can - and will do what you can to further that end. If the DMV was carrying out their own responsibilities instead of hiring bounty-hunters, they'd have access to the records, and not particularly care one way or the other if it turned out she couldn't drive. They wouldn't be there to make a profit, only enforce the law. Their whole motive would be different, as well as their access to official documentation and ability to render legal judgment on the situation. By renting out their governmental responsibilities to you, they've created a situation ripe for abuse.

 

-Tuthmose

 

-Tuthmose

[AceOfSkulls]

They usually try the "Look I'm not here to take anything from your house today, I just want to talk to you about this debt." on the first visit, then they can come back any time they like

 

bailifs are vampire's

[Elias]

Ah they're located in Bromley, sounds about right.

 

My first advice would be to phone your local council immediately and try to speak to someone who isn't a phone answering drone, e.g someone in a high authority position dealing with council tax.

 

If nothing comes of this, phone your local citizens advice bureau, they're generally pretty helpful.

 

It is also worth noting that bailiffs cannot recover your goods in payment for someone else's debt. I've also been told by a property law lecturer that they cannot take something if it is switched on and "in use". Although I don't have any statute or other law to back this up, but it's worth a try.

 

This website seems to be pretty useful Bailiff Advice Essentially it states that if the local council is claiming for unpaid council tax, they must file for a Liability Order at a Magistrates, upon doing so, if it is granted, they must inform you 14 days before it is handed over to the debt collection agency. Presumably if none of this has happened or been made known to you, you could counter claim for misfeasance in public office, essentially suing the council for not carrying out proper procedures, but you'd be advised to contact a qualified solicitor on that point.

 

The actual law on what bailiffs can and can't do seems to be horribly complex and out dated, it's contained in so many statutes and cases that I daren't look too hard for fear of being engulfed.

 

As I said at the start of the post, contact the council and explain everything, make sure you keep copies of all written correspondance from all parties concerned as this will be vital evidence should it go to court.

 

Hope this helps a little.

 

J

 

[Punkypink]

I'm well beyond that stage now. The complaint against Chandlers Limited has now been formally filed with trading standards. The complaint is not against them trying to collect a "debt" against me. It is a complaint about their conduct.

 

Meanwhile I'd like to direct this to everyone reading this thread:

Everyone has a job to do, but there are still rules governing how you go about doing your job. I really do not wish to see anyone else express the "they're just doing their job" sentiments because it is irrelevant and misses the point.

[Elliot]

For the record bailiffs are like any other person in any other profession, there are good and bad. And we do need bailiffs because there are people who will deliberately steel from other people, and refuse to pay back to the people who they have stolen from, even when the courts have ordered them to do so, this is when a bailiff is needed.

 

In my opinion the whole system needs a good overhaul, as there are many outdated and irrelevant

laws covering the whole current court / Bailiffs system, the most stupid being the issuing of a court summons,

the current system is simply mailing the summons to an address 1st class, this is simply a very stupid way of

serving a summons, as firstly there is no possible guarantee of it being received by the person it was intended for, and secondly if it IS received by the intended person, there is NO proof that it was received by that person

I believe that all court summons should be hand delivered by an officer of the court, this would cut the number of incorrectly issued CCJs down to a negligible amount.

Also you can be found guilty by a county court in your absence, which is quite simply just wrong and brings up a load of potential human rights violations, and would be much less likely if you knew about the court summons in the first place, which brings me back to the serving the summons by hand.

 

Any way back on topic so long as NO court order has been issued, and you have signed NO contract with the debt collectors, then they should not be able to seize any thing. If they do threaten to do so try to get it on video overtly not covertly so they know you are recording it (Phone or camcorder is good for this, make sure the video file is date and time stamped for evidentiary purposes), then tell them you are going to make a complaint of harassment to the police, then make a complaint of “harassment” to the police, there must be 2 occasions of harassment for an offence to have been committed, but you must have informed the police on both occasions (so you might only get a crime number on the second occasion I’m not sure on that.).

 

Hope any of that helps Elliot.

 

[Xaccers]

Actually Punky, if you aren't able to understand the OFT's advice in context then you would be better off handing the reigns over to a solicitor to work on your behalf.

 

I really can't see how visiting you after the council offices close on a Friday prevents you contacting the same council on the following Monday.

 

 

 

[Tuthmose]

I really can't see how visiting you after the council offices close on a Friday prevents you contacting the same council on the following Monday.

 

I think the point there was that they told her they weren't going to give her till Monday. Although it was a bluff, what they said was they were going to come back in 20 minutes and take her stuff. Thus effectively preventing her from contacting the legal authorities to dispute the debt. Sure, she could contact the council on Monday. From an empty flat, on a borrowed telephone, cause they'd already stolen all her stuff.

 

Making initial contact after close of business hours on a Friday, and demanding immediate payment and threatening seizure within the hour, knowing full well that any documentation of financial non-liability could not be procured until the following Monday? Seems like pretty deliberate timing to me.

 

-Tuthmose

[migwar]

Punky, what your referring to are signs of spotting a scam, Not the definition of a scam. An important distinction to make

[Mike_West]

Punky ISO 9001 is a joke

ISO 9001:

man 1: We have a documented way of doing things, lets bring in an auditor!

man2: why spend the money?

m1: so we can say we're ISO certified and charge more!

m2: brilliant!

Auditor: I see you do things as your documentation states. well done, here's a shiny ISO cert for you.

 

KM

Exactly, ISO 9000 standards are in fact a load of ######. I got to the same conclusions after an internal ISO 9000 training at work.

[L473ncy]

@ Elliot:

 

I believe in Canada as long as you send it through Registered Mail (ie. you must sign for the package) it proves that the court did send it out and that it was signed for. Now there is the potential that the person who is delivering the letter/summons signed for it (sometimes the mailman is too lazy, signs for the package and leaves it in the bushes or something).

 

Anyways, the fact that it's being contracted out to someone (who is a for profit organization) means the system is ripe for abuse. If it was all done in house and the bailiffs were part of the council then there would be little need for such dirty tactics to get the person to pay. In North America I do not know if the government contracts out to "repo men" but many private for profit institutions (ie. a car dealership, banks and mortgages, etc.) do contract out to repo men. The government probably does contract out but not to the extent that what they seem to do in the UK. The government could probably seize your house/property but that's only after a judgment has been made.

 

It's comparing apples to oranges though, yes the government wants taxes but it's supposed to be for non profit whereas with a public/privately owned for profit institution they're there to make a profit and want their money now. Either way they want money but the way they go about it should be different.

 

Oh yeah, you can also spoof the date and time stamp on a cam corder however that's just a small detail and if you swear or sign an affidavit or w/e that the evidence you're presenting is the right date then it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure if it will work for the court however you can probably also hold the daily newspaper up to the camera as proof of the date.

 

Punky, if you don't get a judgment you like then you can always hire these guys to "take care of business" for you : http://www.madoomovie.com/media/0913young%...ngerous%201.jpg

 

EDIT: Also ISO 9000 is kind of a joke but at the same time it kind of is a necessity. I'm not a total bureaucrat and 100% by the books or anything but it keeps standards across the world well.... standard. It's probably not necessary for a local small time company however for an international company that does business across the world it probably is, (ie. a company that manufactures autopilots for boats).

[Stealthbomber]

I think the point there was that they told her they weren't going to give her till Monday. Although it was a bluff, what they said was they were going to come back in 20 minutes and take her stuff. Thus effectively preventing her from contacting the legal authorities to dispute the debt. Sure, she could contact the council on Monday. From an empty flat, on a borrowed telephone, cause they'd already stolen all her stuff.

 

I think you're missing the point this time.

 

Much as Punky would rather we didn't say it, the fact is that bailiffs don't just show up out of the blue.

You get letters and phone calls telling you they're coming before they arrive.

 

For better or worse, debt collection agencies have heard "I never got the letter" a million times before.

They don't care. It's not their job to care.

It's like trying to argue your way out of a speeding ticket by saying, well, anything. You're speeding. End of.

 

As far as a bailiff goes they're contracted to recover goods to pay off a debt.

They're not interested in discussing it or listening to explanations.

As far as they're concerned, if you had a good explanation you would have given it to the people who hired the bailiffs and, as a result, the bailiffs would have been told to stand down.

To that end they WILL do all sorts of sneaky stuff to get the job done in the same way a cop will wait behind a hedge with a speed gun.

 

It's not a pleasant job but it's a little naive to criticise them for their actions because that IS the sort of stuff that gets their job done.

[Tuthmose]

Much as Punky would rather we didn't say it, the fact is that bailiffs don't just show up out of the blue.

You get letters and phone calls telling you they're coming before they arrive.

 

That certainly does change that bit of it. I was under the impression they just showed up, over an issue she thought was solved. If that's not the case, it does paint their actions in a slightly different light. Skeazy, sure, but not scamming.

 

For better or worse, debt collection agencies have heard "I never got the letter" a million times before.

They don't care. It's not their job to care.

It's like trying to argue your way out of a speeding ticket by saying, well, anything. You're speeding. End of.

 

As far as a bailiff goes they're contracted to recover goods to pay off a debt.

They're not interested in discussing it or listening to explanations.

 

And that right there is why the the relationship between government and citizens shouldn't be carried out by third-party agents like these guys. But I think, at least in theory, we've agreed on that.

 

-Tuthmose

[Xaccers]

I think the point there was that they told her they weren't going to give her till Monday. Although it was a bluff, what they said was they were going to come back in 20 minutes and take her stuff.

 

 

People are most likely to be in from the time businesses (ie the council) close, not before when they're likely to be at work.

Do you understand that?

There's no point calling on someone when they're likely to be out. It wastes time and money.

Bailiffs have a right of peaceful entry only, IE if a door or window is open, or you just let them in.

Doesn't matter if they turn up with 20 mates, a couple of coppers (who will only be there to ensure the peace is kept, not to aid in entry), their mother and their dog.

You tell them they can't come, ask them to leave and close the door.

If they do not go, then you call the police as they are harrassing you.

Then, at the next available oppertunity (ie on Monday) you go to the council offices and demand to speak to someone about the matter.

You do not leave until you have witnessed them contacting the collection agency.

 

What you don't do is bury your head in the sand, get angry at them, insult them, shoot them shouting *yehaw!* etc.

 

 

When it comes to council tax, I know very well how councils handle it. Upstairs I have a summons for failing to pay myself.

Basically my bank is rubbish at direct debits, so I pay chunks off the bill when I get paid.

This confuses the council.

Normally they send me a red reminder letter, I pay off more than they're asking for that monthly installment, they recalculate and send me another statement of the outstanding bill.

I forget when the next installment is due, they send me a red letter, I pay more than they're asking.

Last month I missed a payment, so they've sent me the summons.

Later tonight I'll pay the remaining £24.90 (assuming their website is working) and the matter will be closed.

In a few months time they'll send a bill for 2010, and being several months into it, they'll have higher payments than if they'd got it sorted for the start of the year in March.

 

[galactica]

I think you're missing the point this time.

 

Much as Punky would rather we didn't say it, the fact is that bailiffs don't just show up out of the blue.

You get letters and phone calls telling you they're coming before they arrive.

 

 

Not true, though. I have personal experience of a bailiff arriving and executing with absolutely zero notice, a council complaint having been settled some 6 months before.

 

No letter to the fact, and certainly no phone call. The very idea that they would phone is hilarious.

[Xaccers]

Not true, though. I have personal experience of a bailiff arriving and executing with absolutely zero notice, a council complaint having been settled some 6 months before.

 

No letter to the fact, and certainly no phone call. The very idea that they would phone is hilarious.

 

My gf's parents got a visit unexpectedly from the bailiffs once, they just barged in and started noting items while one read out a statement.

When they mentioned the debt owner's name, her mum said "You bloody fools, they live 3 doors up!"

Appologies and sheepish looks filled the room, and complaints were made about them just barging in.

[mattmanic]

It's like trying to argue your way out of a speeding ticket by saying, well, anything. You're speeding. End of.

 

Surely a better analogy to Punky's case would be trying to argue your way out of a speeding ticket you were given when you weren't speeding?

 

Or even better, if you were an emergency services driver and were given a ticket while on your way to an incident. You were speeding but you were allowed to be.

[chas]

Spanish law student here. I was just wondering: are bailiffs private profesionals or companies? WTF? If you owe the local government money (even if in this case you dont) they have to have the means to recover it directly from your bank account or through a simplified judicial process, but what the hell are they doing going through a private citizen to deal with public (especially taxes) affairs?

Next thing you know police duties are carried out by private companies.

[galactica]

My gf's parents got a visit unexpectedly from the bailiffs once, they just barged in and started noting items while one read out a statement.

When they mentioned the debt owner's name, her mum said "You bloody fools, they live 3 doors up!"

Appologies and sheepish looks filled the room, and complaints were made about them just barging in.

 

 

Indeed. no-one is in the bailiff business because it's their dream job. It's done by people with no ability and a thick skin. Let's not pretend that they won't make mistakes or break the rules. The people who send them in from the council similarly don't do that job because they care about debt recovery. They also get it wrong.

[galactica]

Spanish law student here. I was just wondering: are bailiffs private profesionals or companies? WTF? If you owe the local government money (even if in this case you dont) they have to have the means to recover it directly from your bank account or through a simplified judicial process, but what the hell are they doing going through a private citizen to deal with public (especially taxes) affairs?

Next thing you know police duties are carried out by private companies.

 

 

They are private companies. They are a horrific anachronism, a hangover from the bad old days where people could be sent to prison for private debt, by a debtor. It's a disgrace that they still exist.

[chas]

Thanks. Wow, goodbye to the warranties for citizens rights. THAT is why you need a constitution, where private property is considered not only a constitutional right, but a fundamental right and needs either a due process and the final order by a judge or a summary administrative process (ALWAYS carried out in all its steps by public workers) to have anything taken from you.

[Xaccers]

Spanish law student here. I was just wondering: are bailiffs private profesionals or companies? WTF? If you owe the local government money (even if in this case you dont) they have to have the means to recover it directly from your bank account or through a simplified judicial process, but what the hell are they doing going through a private citizen to deal with public (especially taxes) affairs?

Next thing you know police duties are carried out by private companies.

 

They have to be legally authorised to collect the debt on behalf of the creditor.

The creditor applies to the court for a warrant of execution at the county court.

If they succeed, the court writes to the debtor informing them and gives them 7 days to pay.

If that's ignored the warrant is passed to the bailiffs, which authorises them to try and get the debt paid within the workings of the law (ie not by harrassing you, or breaking into your home - unless they have a court warrant for that if you owe court fees or tax)

Many people who owe money don't have bank accounts, or an income which can pay off the debt in one go (remember, creditors have to consider reasonable repayment agreements, that's what my ex was on, £20 a week for her council tax, although she'd pay more whenever she had it), so taking their belongings, and we're not talking essentials or tools of your trade (such as your PC if you use it for work, we're talking TVs, music centres, car (if not required for work), garden equipment.

 

Having it in the private sector, like most things, makes it cheaper than if it was state run.

If a debt collector causes too many complaints by breaking the law in the execution of their duties, then the council can always stop using them.

If they were employed by the council it would be nigh on impossible to get rid of them.