Religion V Science

[hwagan]

(i for one know that many don't like 1911s, great but i would never think of forcing that Glock out of your hand and a 1911 into it)

 

'FireKnife'

 

 

You've changed, man.

[FireKnife]

You've changed, man.

 

Oh really

 

Didn't say i wouldn't 'persuade / slip a 1911 in there' (and i meant hands, had enough of people with no guts reporting me for getting fussy over my posts without the courage to actually complain to me).

 

But it also works the other way, if say, islam proved unequivocally that allah exists, who would accept it?

 

Yes i would accept it but would i believe in it? No. Acceptence of something and true faith in something is a huge chasm to cross. Also note i said if someone did prove there method, anything from science to religion, hell if the Scienetologists were right then good on them, but it doesn't mean i would devote my life to it, but still take it as fact (though the chance Scientology is real, well it was set up by a guy that wrote fiction, go figure).

 

'FireKnife'

[WhiteHawksan]

MY favourite is Jehova's witnesses,

 

Hey guys, I'm in jail for fraud, deception and attempting to pervert the course of justice.. buuuut I've totally just had a message from god! In jail! Like NO WAY! I know! I'm not a conman or a fraud anymore, I'm an honest to god genuine heard from god to set up my own cult where only those who buy into a select few can actually get in to heaven.

 

Well, I've had another message from god, looks like he changed his mind on how many can come in, so come on and join up!

 

This guy sounds legit

[FireKnife]

All of the smaller off shoots of Christianity make the main Catholic faith look legit, like the Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses and Scienetologists being prime examples. But hey, the biggest issue i have is how far fetched the stories are yet people still believe them. Ok you could pass of the resurrection of Christ as a vision or even as a mirage / heatstroke image and in a hot country such things can happen, but DC-8s, aliens and other world creatures bonding with humans to make negative energy, that is where i would happily draw the line.

 

'FireKnife'

[WhiteHawksan]

you could also go for coma etc

 

But my mate flew a DC-8, and well, he's fairly sure it was full of supplies, not aliens, I'll ask him to double check next time, they might be under the consoles

[shmook]

I think I'm the mutant of the thread!

 

I do believe in god, the devil, heaven and hell (Jesus is a funny one)

 

You're not a mutant, and I'm glad folk are piping up from both sides to discuss this

 

I'm the other way in belief. As I said before I'm 'science' (NOT scientology), and thus don't believe in god/the devil/higher power/heaven/hell, but I believe Jesus existed.

 

However, if he existed today and started a following, it would be slapped down as a cult by more established religions. This is how I see religion, closed to other beliefs (generalising here). All of them had to start somewhere, with few followers, and build up numbers. But I also see it as a way to explain some science before it could be rationalised, and a way to control masses by a few.

 

Not aiming at you shardik, just that part of your post inspired me to write this

 

Look at how much science has advanced in 2000 years, and is still going. Just because it can't be explained now, doesn't mean it can't be explained later.

 

As for a bloke rising from the dead? He could have had a twin. could have been faking death. Could have been in a coma (which modern science would ascertain) and thought dead.

 

Or he really could have risen from the dead, which means Christians are zombie-worshippers!

 

Edit; the last bit is tongue-in-cheek and not supposed to offend

[WhiteHawksan]

I think that is the basis of my faith more than anything.

 

My god is a genocidal maniac with a thirst for blood and a zombie for a kid. What's NOT to love?

[renegadecow]

I would consider myself religious still only that I recognize God (or higher being of some such) exists. However with 18 years of Catholicism shoved down my gullet, 4 years worth of theology and philosophy at university, I recognize any and all churches are pure BS. People in my opinion are too stupid to comprehend the will of (a) God so they superimpose their own beliefs either out of delusion or some kind of political/social/commercial/personal gain.

 

So now I follow ponies and try to live out life lessons I learn out of a kids show. So far I find myself to be a better person than I ever was.

[Tinkerton]

Firstly, can i just say how proud I am of everybody that's posted so far. Srsly, you couldnt have a thread like this on any other of the myriad forums i'm a member of.

 

I'm religious, but in my opinion religion and/or faith is a very personal thing, and doesnt work when it becomes more than that. I beleive whatever i want to beleive, which for me, is that there is a heaven/hell and god/jesus/holy spirit, and also a devil and various other stuff like that.

 

I draw the line at ghosts. but at the same time, i can't help but harbour a secret desire that once upon a time, dragons existed. (otherwise where would the storys/legends come from!?)

 

I beleive in both the christian story of creation, AND the big bang and evolution. To me, they are not mutually exclusive. Big Bang = let there be light.

 

Religion has led to many good things, as well as bad. For every protest about some musical or law, there's bound to be myriad church/religious groups volunteering to run youth clubs for kids, and litter pick, and help around the community.

 

End of the day, religion/ faith is like a penis. I'm glad you've got one, and i'm happy for you, but don't try and force it down my throat, and i won't force mine down yours.

[FireKnife]

I think we should go back to a pre-organised state, back in the days of Greek and early Roman. That way you could worship whichever of the Gods you took the most liking to, and you had many to choose from. The only difference is you respected the choice of the other people around you as you all believed, while not in the same God but in the same concept and the one that worked for you.

 

I think Family Guy put organised religion best with the three friends that due to a 'baby being born in a stable' means they have to kill each other. Why, they could all worships it in a different way but no that is not how organised religion functions (and lets not forget the abuses of power by the old heads of state like the Popes etc, not to say religion is bad but like all things it can be used for great evil).

 

I draw the line at ghosts. but at the same time, i can't help but harbour a secret desire that once upon a time, dragons existed. (otherwise where would the storys/legends come from!?)

 

Same on the ghosts even though the missus doesn't, even though she is a see it to believe it person usually. As for dragons another example of how one thing can be shown in different ways. In the West a dragon is a tall, long tailed, winged reptilian creature, but in the East it is more of a hairy long lion with a reptilian like skin that has a head often potrayed as a crocodile with a lions mouth and mane. To me the dragon from the West concept works but that is how i know them, due to where and how i was brought up.

 

'FireKnife'

[BaggyPants]

My father in law is a vicar, and my wife was brought up in that environment. She believes in something, but no longer that which she was brought up with. I went to church as a kid, I was even confirmed and served at mass on a sunday, but I no longer have any belief in god or gods. As Shmook stated earlier, I am more than happy for anyone to be content with their beliefs, until they start trying to convince me that they, and only they, are right. If they are happy in their religeon, I am happy for them. They should be just as happy for me in my lack of religeon. I will not preach to them that they are wrong and I am right, but I expect the same in return.

[mimesis]

What people want to do with their Friday, Saturday or Sunday mornings in their business.

 

When they decide that they want everyone in the country they live in to conform to their laws, mandates, prohibitions, etc. because they have it from this divinely inspired source that that is how everyone should live, that's when I get annoyed.

 

And there's way too much of this going around at the moment.

[FireKnife]

I must admit, only one thing gets on my nerves. It is those that think it is fine to stand in the middle of town or city centres with a loud hailer and shout their beliefs at passers by. I am sorry but i don't mind something a little musical or maybe walking up to others and kindly talking to them in the street, but this and these 'wellness' things they set up where they use peoples distress as a means to force God on others, that is wrong. Sure it is nice to have faith but don't 1) scream it at people and expect them to listen or 2) use something unrelated as a means to force religion on people when they are down, give them comfort but personal comfort not force anything upon them.

 

Though i do think those people that stand out on some of the main club streets in Aberdeen with plastic sandals offering them to women in high heels are doing something good and what religion should be about, using your time and faith to help others, but not force it upon them, you can refuse to take the sandals and they are equally as fine, at least they offered and at least you aren't forced to listen to them ram it down your throat.

 

'FireKnife'

[WhiteHawksan]

I don't think anything has done as much harm to religious image as the street vendors. They annoy the hell out of me and I partially agree with them! I ripped one to shreds once, I gave him several chances to walk away, but no, he was determined, and boy did he pay the price for it

[renegadecow]

Except for Hare Krishna maybe. They're at least pleasing to look (and hear) while they peddle their wares. I remember being approached from behind by one before and I thought I was being mugged only to my surprise that I wasn't. They just wanted to give me a sticker.

[spetsnazdave87]

 

I draw the line at ghosts. but at the same time, i can't help but harbour a secret desire that once upon a time, dragons existed. (otherwise where would the storys/legends come from!?)

 

 

You see, that's something I find interesting. I'm actually much, much more inclined to believe in ghosts and paranormal activity. New scientific discoveries happen all the time, I think some kind of consciousness/'after image' hanging around after death isn't the most unlikely thing I've ever heard of.

[amateurstuntman]

I don't mean to poke holes but sit and think about this statement. Irrationality is a very negative attribute, and in utilizing the coloquial connotation of the word you are essentially saying religious individuals are "special".

 

In my mind you are comparing apples and oranges, one is a way of applying a theoretical understanding of the mechanics of the universe, the other is an attempt to identify the purpose of existence, its comapring the existential to the physical, they are independent of one another in a generalized sense.

 

You have inferred that irrational is a negative connotation.

My point that was if you are a believer you should be proud to be irrational.

 

All the word means is "not rational", rationality is for science, faith cannot be rational.

 

The world is full of groups of people who embrace a word that others mean pejoratively.

To me being irrational is bad, to a person of religion - accept that, it's part of your faith.

 

I think the title of this thread is badly chosen.

I agree, it could perhaps be re-worded to be less confrontational.

 

I don't mean to have offended anyone but I personally cannot believe that there is one chap sitting in the sky governing my and the worlds movements.

 

That is specific to judeo-christian religions, other religions have multiple gods.

A person who believes in one god is already an atheist to 99.9% of the world's religions.

 

True atheists only go one step further.

 

Antitheists (like me) go the next logical step.

 

But it also works the other way, if say, islam proved unequivocally that allah exists, who would accept it?

 

 

I would if you could prove it but the whole point of faith is that it absolutely relies on there being no proof.

Should Allah provide the Muslems with direct proof that he exists then there would be no faith required and then there would be no reward for piety.

 

Also, when he popped down to mention it, I imagine he would want to see a few imams in his office, tea - no biscuits.

[renegadecow]

A person who believes in one god is already an atheist to 99.9% of the world's religions.

 

True atheists only go one step further.

 

Antitheists (like me) go the next logical step.

You forgot

[WhiteHawksan]

so stunt is a scientologist!

 

Incidentally faith and science work on surprisingly similar principles, both rely on supposed truth.

 

The basis of most science is still theoretical, no-one understands why it all works yet. We've had string theory and such trying to explain it, but the science that underpins all science is guesswork. The same goes for faith, you suppose that god/aliens/mermaids are real without the underpinning factual proof.

[hwagan]

On a slightly OT note, I get my life lessons from South Park. Seriously, that show really does promote some pretty good ideas, even if they do it in the most horribly offensive way possible

[FireKnife]

The basis of most science is still theoretical, no-one understands why it all works yet. We've had string theory and such trying to explain it, but the science that underpins all science is guesswork. The same goes for faith, you suppose that god/aliens/mermaids are real without the underpinning factual proof.

 

True, but what of the science we have proved and have no doubt about?

 

So far i have yet to see religion actual prove that any of the things happened but history and the way the world is have proved to me that the belief the world is round is true, the belief that gravity exists is true, that there is nothing up above but clouds, atmosphere and them empty space is true. I am not having a go at anyone but i do like belief that leads to proof, but when you have a belief you then need to prove it for others to understand it. I believe my Tokyo Marui 1911A1 could outrange a WE pistol out of the box, now people may not believe me (idiots? it is a WE ) but when i prove it to them then it has gone from belief to a fact. At least i have started with a belief and followed it through, but then that is how i work.

 

This just reminds me of a Dara O'Brian joke. 'All this alternative medicine, yes we used to have alternative medicine and what we found worked became 'medicine', why have an alternative for it if we know it works'.

 

P.S. Sorry if that sounds like a rant to anyone, it isn't more just personal observation on the way i perceive fact over belief.

 

On a slightly OT note, I get my life lessons from South Park. Seriously, that show really does promote some pretty good ideas, even if they do it in the most horribly offensive way possible

 

Because it is ok to kill your father and step mother, feed them to your half brother then laugh at him and drink his tears? Well i am sure if you look in some religious texts you will find some equally as questionable stuff. Though i see why people do watch SP, while it is offensive it does have a point, like how people can take works like the Passion of Christ and use it as an excuse to abuse others, even though it is a performance piece that has no real root in historical fact or even much in the religious taxts as far as i know.

 

'FireKnife'

[hwagan]

Because it is ok to kill your father and step mother, feed them to your half brother then laugh at him and drink his tears? Well i am sure if you look in some religious texts you will find some equally as questionable stuff. Though i see why people do watch SP, while it is offensive it does have a point, like how people can take works like the Passion of Christ and use it as an excuse to abuse others, even though it is a performance piece that has no real root in historical fact or even much in the religious taxts as far as i know.

 

'FireKnife'

 

People often discount a lot of what South Park tries to get across due to the nature of the show, which is fair enough; But a good example is the 'Tolerance' episode - Mr. Garrison decides he wants a few million bucks, and decides to get Mr. Slave to perform unbelievably debauched acts in front of the kids so he can get himself fired and then sued; It ends with Mr. Garrison failing to sue anyone, being rewarded for his 'bravery' in exposing kids to disgusting stuff simply because he's gay. He then goes on a rant that the point of tolerance is you tolerate something, not necessarily like it, and that there are limits to what people can get away with when hiding behind gender/sexuality/etc to justify totally unacceptable behaviour.

 

There's another episode with Racism as a theme, where the kids are asked to redesign a flag featuring white stick men hanging a black one, and they constantly get a *badger*ing because each time they redesign the flag, the black guy is still hanging; When asked for an explanation, the kids explain that they never saw the stick man as black, just as any other person. Point being that everybody should be looked at as a person, not as a skin colour.

 

Like I said, they don't put it across in the most obvious of ways, but the messages are there

[FireKnife]

The best one i find is how they show up the effects of the towns reaction to showing Mohammed, the town doesn't want to expose him for fear of being killed, but is threaten with violence if they don't give him up to the celebs or the gingers. It shows that sometimes you really have people that will stand violently on both sides but you have to decide between the 'lesser' of the two evils, do you bow to in your face violence or do you anger a whole religion and see the long term issues. Though admittedly some of it does go way too far, much of it has a subtle point behind the humour and not always religious but many other things.

 

But alas i am sure we could discuss the merits of South Park in a topic in it's own right, think it would be best of we stick to the comparisons of religious and scientific beliefs and how we percieve them.

 

'FireKnife'

[Habakure]

If people would like to submit a new thread title, I'm all for it. But lets be honest, this is a thread about peoples experiences, who either follow science or religion. The title was also supposed to be taken in a tongue in cheek kind of way, to keep this thread light hearted.

 

Most poeple I know, that believe in ghosts or paranormal activity etc, don't believe in god.

 

I loke glocks and 1911's, does that make me a sadists?

[hwagan]

Yeah, I got a bit distracted there! Although South Park is actually the closest thing I have to a bible