Executing prisoners, what do you think?

[Pants of Death]

It's probably a good idea to lock it Harry. It's becoming little more than a place to trash views and realism.

[Gasgrenade23]

Take no prisoners!Kill everybody you find!MUUHOOHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Come on!It`s just a game.I wouldn`t do that kind of thing in real life

 

I think

[GuzziHero]

Thanks for the retaliatory neg-rep, Pants of Death, in contravention of forum rules.

 

I neg-repped you because you are another "OMFG, I am a Blackwater super mercenary" type. If youd read my post properly, you would have realised the sarcasm present. Or would you?

[ECRRRainman]

I can only see the purpose of "executing" prisoners in certain situations. Since you have taken someone prisoner you obviously NEED them alive for something, otherwise they would have been slaughtered by the plastic death like their other comrades. So IF you have prisoners the only true reason to execute them would be to dispose of the excess baggage. My personal belief is that if you are going to execute a prisoner a simple "bang" will do, I would only condone shooting an unarmed individual if and only if he is fully aware and has agreed to it happening. But like I have said they are prisoner because you need them alive, so why kill em?

 

I would also find it more beneficial to simply disarm the prisoner and let him free, now instead of have a fully armed combatant once respawned the person is now an unarmed meatshield!

[Pants of Death]

Thanks for the retaliatory neg-rep, Pants of Death, in contravention of forum rules.

 

I neg-repped you because you are another "OMFG, I am a Blackwater super mercenary" type.  If youd read my post properly, you would have realised the sarcasm present.  Or would you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Blackwater is not a mercenary unit. They are only authorized to engage in a battle in a defensive posture.

 

Yes I read it, and you've mislabeled me. Anyway, the negative rep point was not retaliatory, as I clearly stated in my reason for giving it. You on the other hand gave me something to the effect of "mwuahahaha" as a justification, which is clearly an abuse of the the reputation system.

[Pants of Death]

So IF you have prisoners the only true reason to execute them would be to dispose of the excess baggage. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I've been saying all along.

[Naked Singularity]

I'm just a grunt in my squad, so I don't get a say in taking prisoners. It's the squad leaders who decide on what to do on the field. They lead, we follow. Just like in real militaries. I do what I'm ordered to do. There's nothing personal in my playing style.

 

Aside from the "execution" I mentioned ealier, there were a couple other incidents. Once, two hostiles ran out of ammo in the middle of a fight and tried to surrender (medic game; five "deaths" and you're out). After receiving a nod from my squad leader, I cut both of them down as they walked toward us to surrender. We did this out of a practical reason. We had to herd the captured to the rear of our line and risk the possibility of them rejoining their friends. By mowing them down, we took away one more of their five lives and reduced their team's number. In another similar game, we held eight unarmed prisoners (they were sitting in a clearing in the woods, with their weapon taken away and piled up in the back of a nearby truck). The squad was running low on manpower, and guarding these men was just tying up resources. The squad leader ordered execution, and I had to assist our MG gunner in "taking care of the prisoners." Although it's just a game, I'm not proud of what I had to do. Still, being a grunt meant obeying orders. So I guess I could have the "I was just following orders" defense.

[Jagdraben]

I'm just a grunt in my squad, so I don't get a say in taking prisoners. It's the squad leaders who decide on what to do on the field. They lead, we follow. Just like in real militaries. I do what I'm ordered to do. There's nothing personal in my playing style.

 

Aside from the "execution" I mentioned ealier, there were a couple other incidents. Once, two hostiles ran out of ammo in the middle of a fight and tried to surrender (medic game; five "deaths" and you're out). After receiving a nod from my squad leader, I cut both of them down as they walked toward us to surrender. We did this out of a practical reason. We had to herd the captured to the rear of our line and risk the possibility of them rejoining their friends. By mowing them down, we took away one more of their five lives and reduced their team's number. In another similar game, we held eight unarmed prisoners (they were sitting in a clearing in the woods, with their weapon taken away and piled up in the back of a nearby truck). The squad was running low on manpower, and guarding these men was just tying up resources. The squad leader ordered execution, and I had to assist our MG gunner in "taking care of the prisoners." Although it's just a game, I'm not proud of what I had to do. Still, being a grunt meant obeying orders. So I guess I could have the "I was just following orders" defense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The special neck-tie for those who use the 'I was just following orders' defense:

 

As a grunt, if you're doing things mil-sim, your first duties are to defend the Constitution and to uphold the rules of war. That means no executing prisoners. There is no, 'it's OK to kill prisoners because you didn't bring enough men to the fight the enemy and take care of your prisoners' clause in the rules of war.

 

As I mentioned earlier, any order to execute prisoners is an illegal order. It is your duty to refuse to obey that order or any other illegal order.

 

I personally prefer the German model. Everyone knows their part and the part of the man next to them. They know the duty of everyonein their team from the lowliest private to the highest NCO or officer that they have been assigned orders to. Each unit is highly independent and treated with a hands-off approach. That is, your orders consist of an objective, a time table, and what resources are available to your unit. This fosters unit cohesion and the ability for lower-ranking soldiers and NCOs to take the initiative in the middle of a firefight should the CO and/or XO be wounded, killed, or captured.

 

In any case, shooting prisoners is unjust (unless the prisoner has been found guilty by a lawful court of crimes for which the law proscribes execution) and there can be no excuse for it. If you are not proud of it, then you never should have done it.

 

Blackwater is not a mercenary unit. They are only authorized to engage in a battle in a defensive posture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Blackwater is a mercenary organization. They accept money to go to warzones and they go there with guns. Blackwater operatives are not paid a quarter million dollars a year for their good looks or for their ability to build schools. They are sent into combat zones for the purpose of doing that which their clients have paid them to do. Do you really think that if their clients paid them to undertake an offensive operation that they would refuse to do so? They wouldn't. They're mercenaries. That's all there is to it. Being authorized to undertake offensive operations has nothing to do with it.

[Naked Singularity]

Wait, they would also hang the grunt who was ordered to shoot prisoners? I never knew that. I thought only the officers would punished for ordering prisoner executions.

 

But in a real war, wouldn't refusal to carry out orders (even one as horrid as killing unarmed prisoners) be classified as insurbordination and carry a death sentence as well? I wouldn't want to tell my squad leader "No sir. I cannot carry out such an order," and then have my officer pull out his pistol and shoot me.

 

Or is there a special clause that would aquit me of fragging my deranged officer for both ordering me to shoot prisoners and trying to shoot me when I refuse? Somebody enlighten me. I'm confused.

[Jagdraben]

You'd have to be tried for insubordination in order to be executed for it. And refusing to follow an unlawful order does not constitute insubordination.

 

If your officer threatens to kill you for refusing to follow his unlawful order, you can frag him if you choose to. It would be ruled an act of self-defense because your officer threatened to kill you for refusing to follow an unlawful order. That is, of course, if it ever comes up in court. Just as your CO can say that you were killed in battle if he kills you, you can say that he died in battle.

 

As for the noose... in the West, it was generally the men who ordered it who are hung. However, the Soviets hung every German soldier and officer who was directly involved in executing Soviet POWs and carrying out anti-partisan operations. In any case, it's your responsibility to not follow the order. You're just as guilty as your officer because you refused to tell your CO where he can stick it. In any case, the blood would be on your hands, just as much as it would be on your CO's.

[Cannonfodder80]

Executing prisoners? airsoft yes of course, real life no way.

 

In airsoft we are all alive and well (well we should be) at the end of the day so execution of prisoners, by the bang rule or otherwise, is ok IMO. Once when I was taken prisoner I only had my aeg removed so when my three guards were more concerned with the rescue party coming to me I took out my pistol, shot all three of them in the back and made my escape.

 

In real wars we have the geneva convention etc, but even supposedly "civilised" armies regularly break these international laws. Under the Hauge convention of 1908 tracer rounds are technically banned due to cauterizing the wound and cause unnessesary suffering. Also how many squaddies will stop and give medical assistance to a wounded enemy soldier? I have heard that all soldiers are apparently supposed to do this under the geneva convention.

 

Edited for typos

[Jagdraben]

Also how many squaddies will stop and give medical assistance to a wounded enemy soldier? I have heard that all soldiers are apparently supposed to do this under the geneva convention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Quite a few, actually. Unsurprisingly, medics and corpsmen have personal codes of ethics that are significantly more rigid than that of their more gung ho comrades. But even their gung ho comrades will help a wounded enemy soldier if it doesn't put themselves or their allies at risk.

[CharlieQB]

Considering that the average bang rule distance is 10ft.  Also it would be explained that this end result is a posabililty to all players.  I was thinking this would be more geared towards actual millsim players, it adds a sense of realism to the simulation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahh come on! 10ft???

 

Thats our average engagement distance at the Werks in London. Christ we normall end up drilling each other at couple of meters on a good day. You lot need to start doing CQB and stop poncing around at 40-50meters in the woods. Fairys

[Janno]

Well, at the 'werks we have a slightly different understanding of the sport

 

We also seem to have the understanding that 90% of the time the prisoners will get shot by their trigger-happy rescuers anyway, hence there is no need for the captors to get their hands dirty

 

Seriously though, we have conducted scripted sequences or realistic scenarios where prisoners/hostages/innocent bystanders are eliminated as a consequence of a poorly executed assault, or eliminated as a trigger to execute an assault. Both the prisoners and executors have to be briefed beforehand though - you can't just play a random capture game and let Jonny Retardo blast another punter in the earhole because "He got gobby with me when i tried to frisk him."

 

Another scenario we do is a jailbreak scenario where a small squad is let loose around the building, and the bigger squad has to hunt them down, capture them, and put them in a prison area that has multiple exits, but only 2 people on guard. The prisoners can do whatever it takes to escape (on the understanding that they can be shot for trying to), but are only allowed to go weapons-active when they have reached a certain point on the site. They then have the option of assaulting the prison and freeing their mates, or doing a runner and saving their own skin. I've only ever seen one guy come back to save his friends, and i'll tell you - keeping watch over a bunch of crafty, mouthy Londoners and being called every variation of the "C" word under the sun is a stressful experience for some, and it's hard not to just go postal and execute every last one of the b*stards.

 

Fortunately, as the site organiser at Elektrowerks, i am faced with this situation every week, and so i have been conditioned to endure it...

[Éremos]

If you want to put out some information about the other team from one prisoner, you can ask him, and if it don't works, you can force him to listen all CD's of Julio Iglesias. WWWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!