Executing prisoners, what do you think?

[Sledge]

Did Michelle send you?

 

[Pants of Death]

Boobs are sexy... but I digress.

 

Frankly, I find the act of executing prisoners to be dispicable. If you capture a guy (or gal), you tell them that the war is over for them and have them escorted to the waiting MPs. If you decide to pull a field interrogation of a captured enemy and they tell you nothing other than their name, rank, and serial number, that's fine. If you're on my team and you shoot a prisoner, I shoot you, simple as. If there are a bunch of prisoners and you shoot one and the rest jump on you, I'll just watch. Any order given to execute a prisoner is an illegal order and it is the duty of any trooper given such an order to refuse to obey and report their superior at once to their superior. If your superior attempts to get someone else to do it, you frag them.

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Well man, this may be true for the regulars. For irregular forces, the ends justifies the means. Always. And besides, I find surrender cowardly, so I just shoot 'em anyway. Or better yet, take 'em down with the ol' rubber bayonet!

[Jagdraben]

Well man, this may be true for the regulars. For irregular forces, the ends justifies the means. Always. And besides, I find surrender cowardly, so I just shoot 'em anyway. Or better yet, take 'em down with the ol' rubber bayonet!

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And that's why you'd be in front of the ICC at the end of the conflict.

 

Unless, of course, you succeeded in committing suicide and your gun didn't jam before you could be captured or your were too afraid to do it the old-fashioned way and that they would get you to a hospital before you died fromdisembowling yourself....

 

In any case, the ends never justify the means, no matter who you are, and especially in airsoft. And if you despise surrender, refuse to surrender, but don't refuse to accept your enemy's surrender. Mercy is a sign of a great man. It's also humiliating as it shows your enemy that you do not consider them a threat at all any more.

 

The means justify the ends. Just as it is better to die free than live a slave, it is better to die with honor than to live a war criminal.

[mrblah]

I've never played a "milsim" game that executed hostages w/ via firing squad for the "sake of realism", but its not uncommon to say "bang your dead", and send them back to the spawn point. Most games have minimum engagement rules, and surrender rules; a 10 ft firing squad, even if its one bb, is still breaking the rules. (unless you stated it before hand). Also, most airsofters wont give up their aeg's, gear, to strangers, things tend to disappear or get lost that way.

 

The only person that can be taken prisoner is the "commander", but usually, he will either die, and if he is captured, he usually is well taken care of because bribery leads to info and doing stupid ###### leads to disinfo.

 

However, we do play scenario games, that include "local militia, faction, non-combatants), that can be coerced into giving info, and even to fight for you, etc, sure they can be taken hostage if you want, and even executed (the bang your dead method), but you really dont want that. Last thing you want, is to ###### off local militia (who happens to have faster regen times and more regen areas), who now is your enemy.

 

I don't have problems playing games where they execute people, I've just never played in a game where that was allowed because of rules, possibility of losing equipment, and you also have to remember, even with milsimer's, the person that is blindfolded and tied, fake or not, isn't having fun, because i'm sure he signed up to sling some bb's, not sit around being someone's prisoner.

 

p.s. only read the first post, didnt read the rest of the discussion on bbs and boobies

[Pants of Death]

And that's why you'd be in front of the ICC at the end of the conflict.

 

Unless, of course, you succeeded in committing suicide and your gun didn't jam before you could be captured or your were too afraid to do it the old-fashioned way and that they would get you to a hospital before you died fromdisembowling yourself....

 

In any case, the ends never justify the means, no matter who you are, and especially in airsoft. And if you despise surrender, refuse to surrender, but don't refuse to accept your enemy's surrender. Mercy is a sign of a great man. It's also humiliating as it shows your enemy that you do not consider them a threat at all any more.

 

The means justify the ends. Just as it is better to die free than live a slave, it is better to die with honor than to live a war criminal.

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Have you never read the works of Richard Marcinko? I'd suggest trying it sometime. He's a credible source, having a 30 year long Navy career and DEVELOPING SEAL Team SIX. I borrow the man's philosophy on combat after having read all of his non-fiction books and a few of his fiction books. The man is brilliant and ruthless. If you want to learn more, start with reading his autobiography.

 

And by the way -- failure is not an option. I will not lose because I am ruthless. I am a fireteam leader, and we are the ones that make things happen in a skirmish.

[Samm]

I think someone's taking airsoft a little too seriously.

Borrowing a ruthless Navy Seal's philosophy om combat? It's just a game, man

[Sledge]

You DO know airsoft is a game, right?

 

[Samm]

A game where you must be ironfisted and strike FEAR! into the hearts of your opponents!

[Sledge]

I'll remember to trade my rubber bayonet in for some piano wire, ready for my next stealth kill.

 

[Pants of Death]

Playing competitively adds to the fun of the game. Realistic attitudes make the game more realistic.

 

Hmmm... piano wire.... sounds good!

[Jagdraben]

Have you never read the works of Richard Marcinko? I'd suggest trying it sometime. He's a credible source, having a 30 year long Navy career and DEVELOPING SEAL Team SIX. I borrow the man's philosophy on combat after having read all of his non-fiction books and a few of his fiction books. The man is brilliant and ruthless. If you want to learn more, start with reading his autobiography.

 

And by the way -- failure is not an option. I will not lose because I am ruthless. I am a fireteam leader, and we are the ones that make things happen in a skirmish.

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You're right. I probably should read his autobiography. I might find some new horrible evils that man can commit against man that I haven't read about from the histories of the Kwantung Army and IJA Special Unit 731.

 

I'll stick to reading about the war in North Africa for my moral guidance in combat, real or simulated. I prefer the lessons of British soldiers who refuse to be ransomed for fewer cigarettes than they believe that they're worth (two million were offered, the Germans would have been happy to accept, but the prisoner in question demanded that his ransom be no less than three million) and German soldiers who would move off the frontline to re-secure prisoners that the SS wanted to shoot (when a regiment of FJ learned that the American and British prisoners they had captured the day before were to be shot, they immediately turned about from the front and re-claimed custody over the prisoners).

 

Now, it's fine by me if you want to be ruthless and shoot me instead of capture me. But the difference between me and you is I would die a warrior. You would be captured, sent to the rear, tried for war crimes, found guilty, hung by the neck, and die a criminal. But, then again, your hero is a criminal, so that isn't horribly surprising.

 

In any case, airsoft is a game. The most important aspects of which are teamwork, comraderie, and honor. Ruthlessness leads to not calling hits, which is dishonorable and leads to a loss of comraderie. You might as well play Counter-Strike or paintball.

 

You DO know airsoft is a game, right?

 

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Red Cell infiltrated his brain and killed all the cells that make him a man, ie: those things that relate to logic, reason, rationality, compassion, love-of-cheese, &c.

 

®

[GuzziHero]

Executing prisoners? If its good enough for the CIA (the worlds largest terrorist organisation), then its good enough for me!

 

Seriously...Id just bang kill them.

[Crazy_Harry]

i'd like to see the prisoner option being used more in games where you would have both the incentive to be captured rather than kills- you only have a limited number of respawns, or something- and that you have the incentive to TAKE prisoners- prisoner exchanges earning points, or something, as well as having UN-style rules about deliberate execution of prisoners when in sight of marshalls.

 

might make for more measured games, at times, and add extra scenarios to the game

[Pants of Death]

Now, it's fine by me if you want to be ruthless and shoot me instead of capture me. But the difference between me and you is I would die a warrior. You would be captured, sent to the rear, tried for war crimes, found guilty, hung by the neck, and die a criminal. But, then again, your hero is a criminal, so that isn't horribly surprising.

 

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You're missing what I'm saying. I won't be captured. I won't be sent to the rear. I won't be tried for war crimes. I won't be found guilty. I won't be hung by the neck. And I won't die a criminal. If it has a clear benefit of a common good (common good meaning defense of freedom and national security), then any act can be ruled justified.

 

Besides, would a special forces unit really drag around prisoners? No. And release means their prisoners can pass on information. It is compromising to the mission to let prisoners live if a unit cannot sustain them. This is what I ws referring to when I said spec ops guys execute prisoners. When I mentioned surrender being cowardly, I was saying it would be all the more easy to execute a prisoner if put in the situation where it was necessary.

[Jagdraben]

And all that I'm saying is that in the Second World War, the war against evil, as it is often billed, we beat the people who did exactly that.

 

You're missing what I'm saying. I won't be captured. I won't be sent to the rear. I won't be tried for war crimes. I won't be found guilty. I won't be hung by the neck. And I won't die a criminal. If it has a clear benefit of a common good (common good meaning defense of freedom and national security), then any act can be ruled justified.

 

No, it cannot. And national security doesn't have anything to do with freedom. The two are at odds with each other.

 

Any act can be justified. That's why we firebombed Japanese cities made of wood and paper. That's why the Japanese tested biological weapons against Chinese civilians. That's why the Germans cut open Jews with hearts still beating in their chests. That's why of the 200,000 Germans who marched into Stalingrad only 90,000 made it out of the city alive and of those only 10,000 made it back to Germany alive. That's why the SS executed American prisoners captured during the Battle of the Bulge.

 

Anything can be justified. If you're just you don't have to justify. Justification is nothing but a series of excuses for why you committed sins against man and God. The sins committed against God are between you and Him. The sins you commit against man, well... those have a tendency of coming back to haunt you if you're any kind of decent.

 

Besides, would a special forces unit really drag around prisoners? No. And release means their prisoners can pass on information. It is compromising to the mission to let prisoners live if a unit cannot sustain them. This is what I ws referring to when I said spec ops guys execute prisoners. When I mentioned surrender being cowardly, I was saying it would be all the more easy to execute a prisoner if put in the situation where it was necessary.

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A special forces unit should never be in a position to take prisoners unless they intend to. If they capture someone, then the moral thing would be to leave them alive, handcuffed to a tree or whatever. Some place where they cannot do any more damage alive than they could dead. And dead people cause a lot more damage than the living can.

 

Afterall, if you kill someone, then you've left clear evidence that you have been there. Your enemy will deduce how far you could have gotten and hunt you down. If, however, you leave an enemy unconscious then any explanation they offer is an excuse for their failure.

 

Lastly, surrender is not cowardly. When no more good can be wrought by standing and fighting than by laying down arms and surrendering, then surrender serves a purpose and it is, in fact, the honorable and moral thing to do.

 

Jus ad bellum.

You must have just cause to wage war. That is, your cause is to reduce or eliminate injustice.

You must have legitimate authority to wage war. That is, you must act in the interest of the public good.

You must have just intentions to wage war. That is, you must act only so far as you must act and then only to end or reduce injustice, never for material gain.

You must have a good likelihood of success to wage war. That is, you must never fight in vain or use excessive force to achieve your objectives.

You must use force proportional to the threat. That is, you must not cause more injustice than you seek to solve.

You must only use force as a last resort. That is, you must exhaust all other means of achieving a just solution before choosing to use force.

 

Happily, in airsoft, we don't have to deal with the basics of that. There need be no cause, authority, or negotiation (unless it's in the rules). However, you must act with honorable intent (call your hits), you must not resort to extreme methods to win (ie: pulling out the real steel because suddenly you're all on your own), and you must use proportional force (don't give people a stream of BBs in the face from five paces with a 400fps+ gun).

 

Executing prisoners means that you have failed to follow the rules of jus ad bellum and that you have, therefore, failed to be just and honorable. Whether it's because of a lack of wisdom or presence of stupidity that puts you into a situation that you cannot extracate yourself without killing prisoners, you do not deserve to extracate yourself. When an enemy surrenders, he or she entrusts his or her life to you. If you execute them, then you are untrustworthy with either enemies or allies. Ultimately, if you treat your enemies with respect and honor, they will show the same to you. If you treat your enemies with barbarism, savagery, and ruthlessness, they shall return the favor.

 

"It is not enough to merely survive. One must be worthy of survival."

[Pants of Death]

This isn't getting anywhere. I'm not going to convince you. I'll play my way, you play yours. Let's hope we don't meet on the field.

[Samm]

Hahaha!

 

Good luck with life Pants of Death, you'll be perfect for the Speshul Farces.

[Pants of Death]

Nope. Hope to start my own private contracting firm.

[Sledge]

It was at this moment I became convinced that Pants of Death was not a genuine poster, but a piece of performance art.

 

[Stealthbomber]

And by the way -- failure is not an option. I will not lose because I am ruthless. I am a fireteam leader, and we are the ones that make things happen in a skirmish.

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[Cannonfodder80]

Is it just me or are some people taking this waaaay to seriously?

[Sledge]

Ya think?

 

[Crazy_Harry]

so, any chance of getting this some way towards NOT being a total "me am teh Delta111!! farce?

 

or shall I just lock it and be done?

[GuzziHero]

Nope. Hope to start my own private contracting firm.

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Is it OK to quote myself in this situation?

 

---

I was born in 1976 in a Spetsnaz barracks and fed on cordite as a baby. By the age of 4, I was juggling grenades. At 5 years old, it was me who really tried to shoot Reagan...boy did that cause a stir with my fellow 5th dan black belt karate experts. As well as the fellow black belters, masters and MasGuru's of all the other 1300 martial arts which I had mastered by my 5th birthday.

 

Saddam didnt invade Kuwait...I did. He hired me to take over the place, so I cloned myself 5000 times, each one learning to command, drive and man the guns on a T-72 tank single handedly using just a Sega Megadrive controller and a yard brush. Training took exactly 3.14 seconds, but it was enough to achieve Class 1 operations ratings. The Americans only beat me because they used tinfoil hats to escape my mind-destroying death ray glare.

 

Massive Air Ordnance Bombs dont exist. Theyre just trying to get rid of my remaining clones, so each one is given a bar of ex-lax and dropped by a plane. The huge explosion that ensues is merely explosive diarrhoea cause by the ex-lax mixed with the 5 gallons of aviation grade gasoline I drink daily as a bowel cleanser. This is necessary because my daily diet consists of 3 metric tonnes of nails, 60 cans of Irn Bru and a souffle.

 

...but I have yet to be offered employment by Blackwater.

---

 

Thats my job application for when you get that contracting firm open.

 

Unless you mean a building contractor (which would be more realistic) in which case, count me out. Im not allowed near bricks since I got peckish and ate the entire 2nd floor of the Taj Mahal.

 

*burp*

[Skarclaw]

If it has a clear benefit of a common good (common good meaning defense of freedom and national security), then any act can be ruled justified.

 

 

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In your eyes, try reading this and see if you change your mind;

 

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/jcanders/Ethic...ic_criticis.htm