Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[lord_marmite]

Hey gunnermaniac,

 

just saw you're in the west midlands, and the thing in you sig says fireball airsofter. If you do play at fireball and are going this weekend then you are welcome to have a go on my M14, its been shortened to just over socom length. PM me if your interested and I'll tell you where to find me on game day

 

Joe

 

P.S the M14 is an AGM, and the gearbox is stock still after nearly a year, hasn't missed a beat, all I have done is replace the barrel with a shorter tighter one (6.03) and added a guarder hop, now it fires like a beast.

[Xaccers]

Marmite, do you know what yours is chronoing at?

[metalhead666]

Mmmmm, furious clone/TM fanboy arguments. It's like heroin to some people. Anyway, lord marmite, you haven't had any problems with your AGM? A friend of mine who wants to get into airsoft more was askin about them, but I thought they were pretty problem ridden.

[lord_marmite]

mine is comming in at 320 give or take, although it seems very consistant, it was one of the first ones to arrive in the UK, bought it on actionhobbys an hour after it was listed, so about mid febuary this year.

mine was my first gun, and i couldnt be more pleased with it, I'm no giant muscle man and I can carry it for a full day with no sling. It was acurate before I put a tightbore in it, but I wanted it a bit shorter as a change of looks, so went with a shorter outer barrel/inner. in my opinion its ok as a begginer gun, it will get the job done provided you treat it with respect. only problem I have heard of is the reversed wiring, mine was sorted before i bought it though so no worries there, the battery that came with it was ok after a few charge cycles on a good charger. the mags are good and the speed wind key is a gem if you get the technique right (insert key, wind till bbs hit stopper in tube, then swing mag around, holding the key, voila, winds mag fully in 5 seconds literally )

 

hope that helps

 

Joe

[Xaccers]

mine is comming in at 320 give or take, although it seems very consistant, it was one of the first ones to arrive in the UK, bought it on actionhobbys an hour after it was listed, so about mid febuary this year.

 

That's good to know.

I'm going to be doing a spring transplant from a AGM M14 gearbox into my CA G36 that has decided to drop it's fps down to 270!

Should have a SP110 in it, so something's not right (has a prom tightbore too and plenty of compression).

[Shinden]

Whoa whoa whoa, just chill down guys.

 

The OP's question was (orginally) what is the most accurate and ranged gun then moving on to price ranges and then the M3 Shotgun. Just literally SHUT UP guys before this thread gets locked. Let me help Gunnermanic here while you guys could just use the PM. Keep the forums clean guys.

 

Are there any worth while accessories for the TM Bennelli M3 shorty??? (Apart from shells)

 

Thanks

 

P.S Also I want to get a new hop up unit for my CA36 any suggestions????

 

And I want a new spring to make the FPS approximately 330 fps.

 

Thanks

 

Hey Gunnermaniac! Other than shells, Blackhawk makes shot gun shell slings as well as a forearm shell holder. I also do like to recommend a small pouch to keep empty shells in too. For the gun, there is not much available to work with, however you can buy a different stock for the M3 shorty, a top rail (needs you to drill holes), different sights, PDI inner barrels and springs.

[metalhead666]

Ok, thanks. The reversed wiring had been one of my main concerns, but if that can be sorted out, than it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem. I wouldn't consider weight a problem, in my friend's case, he's used to lugging around a full metal M16A4 as a loaner. Anyways, thanks for the help.

[lord_marmite]

no problem metalhead, glad I could help

[transist]

Shinden, I don't know why you have to flip out. It's a very good debate with some numbers instead of just flaming. Using PM would defeat the purpose because debates should be open for discussion and different points of view. A better use of the PM system would be for you to personally help Gunnermanic.

 

That said, I have to side with Xaccers on this one. As long as you swap out the bad parts (assuming there are any) and shim it well, it will hum along happily. Almost anything can be replaced on an ACM and you would still come out ahead. I think pointing out flaws in the batteries is a moot point because high end guns don't come with them anyways. It's common knowledge that ACM batteries they are iffy and should be replaced, though it never hurts to have a spare battery anyways.

[Shinden]

Transist, I was actually considering that regarding the PM, but I was concerned because the topic is becoming off topic and turning into a vs. thread. The main problem I see is that both users (I won't name) have couples holes in thier argument and that won't justify the Clone vs. Non-clone guns topic and I hate to say that some of the comments made are just stupid and common sense. Another similar thread like this ended up being locked as some arguements became so off topic into a pointless ramble.

[Connery]

Sorry Xaccers, I was at work.

 

So it could be 2 then?

 

Like I said, I can't give exact numbers. But it isn't two or three.

 

Perhaps someone should have shown them how to fit the battery then?

 

That's the other problem. The clerks couldn't get it in without a lot of hassle. To this day, I have not seen any gun aside from the M4-S that could not just simply put the battery in. It requires work/modification.

 

JG supply Shuang Ba batteries with most of their guns. The JLS isn't as good.

Like I said, TM/CA/ICS don't even come with batteries as standard, so there's that additional cost.

 

And like I said, it depends on where you get your gun from. There is no additional cost where I go. And yes, authorized dealer.

 

The only thing I've noticed about SRC is their sector gears appear to have a larger cam on them for the cutoff lever so if you replace it, you can lose semi (had to do a temporary swap with a mate's TM after his gun chewed it's gears).

Oh their motors are quite noisy though, more than ICS.

 

Tell that to the countless SRC guns with broken nozzles, tappet plates, bad wiring, etc. that I've seen.

 

Airsoft Armoury, see, UK forum, UK prices, where petrol is getting close to £5 a gallon (that's a proper gallon mind you), hence why I run my car on vegetable oil

 

Ah, I thought you meant Airsoft Atlanta. My bad.

 

Apparently we're also a country of more reliable ACMs too. Bonus.

 

Apparently so.

 

Given the choice between a $410 TM that needs upgrading and a $145 JG, I'd go for the JG, especially as several are full metal for a little more.

 

Erm, I've not seen a JG full metal M4-S yet? And you don't just need to replace the hop rubber, you practically need to replace the entire unit. Off the top of my head, I don't know how much it is, but I'm pretty sure it's more than $25.

 

I'm not saying ACM are perfect, they're clearly not, you've got to expect more DOAs, hence why you make sure you buy from a reputable retailer who offers a warranty, but you're more likely to get a great gun for next to nothing than a dead gun, and compared with TM, you're getting more gun for your money, especially with the JG 36c

 

That would be a reason the JG 36c is currently sold out, but for some reason nobody wants to buy the JG M4-S. It is practically hands down, the worst gun I've ever seen. All the JG guns I've seen, once you start working on them, things start to die. I know one person with a JG G36c whose entire gun died just because he changed the motor, gears, spring, nozzle, and piston. And it wasn't his first gun to work on either, he is really good at tuning.

 

But on the other head of the coin, I must admit, I've seen a TM AK-47 have everything changed, but die because the trigger fried. Everything else was fine, just that portion of the gun.

[greg]

Interesting though it is, couldn't you guise open a new & appropriately titled thread in the tech section, so everyone can join in?

 

 

Greg.

[Shinden]

Simply, you get what you paid for. There's very little guns out there that are a clone of a major brand that is very cheap, high quality, and reliable out of the box despite whatever accessories, batteries, chargers, power, and performance it comes right out of the box.

[Xaccers]

Lots of interesting stuff

 

Can you just clarify, because I've always wondered, do you have consumer protection laws in the US? So if you buy something and it doesn't last as long as it should you can get it repaired or replaced? I'm not talking warranties, that's just an agreement with the retailer to repair/replace within a certain time period without hassle. Over here, if you can show that the item you bought hasn't lasted as long as it should have, then the retailer must repair/replace, even if it's beyond the warranty period. Course because of this, most retailers have a warrenty period that covers the reasonable amount of time to save hassle.

 

The JG armalites I have for renting are 733s (short barrel, less chance of it hitting a tree - in theory) and they're the most solid armalites I've ever used, no barrel wobble, increadibly strong delta ring spring.

The DBoys armalites on the other hand (2 of them s-system) have been quite wobbly. I've had to epoxy the top rail to the body, and then seriously tighten the s-system to it, now they're solid, and there's plenty of room for the batteries (I hear the CASV is quite tight for batteries though).

The M4 had serious barrel wobble, but that just needed tightening up.

Personally, I can't stand airsoft armalites no matter who they're made by, they all seem to have the same failings, they're v2 gearboxes so if you run them on anything over 8.4v you're risking damaging the trigger contacts, they're a pain to get the gearbox out if you need to, the motor floats in the pistol grip so everytime you lay the wires differently you're affecting the motor alignment.

 

If your accuracy is down on a ACM, then you just need to change the hop rubber, not sure why you suggested needing to change the whole unit.

Only time I've had to change hop units is when fitting a metal body to a dboys, as the plastic is TM (ie split hop unit) while the metal takes a CA style hop (ie single unit). Dboys metal bodies, apart from being rather plain (so no good if you're into realism), are great, they've got shoulder tabs at the back of the upper reciever spreading the load better than CA pins or their new pips. You do often need to either counter sink the selector screw a bit more, or swap it with the one from the plastic body you're replacing though otherwise it can bite into the gearbox causing difficult selector changes.

 

I have to question the retailers though if they're getting that many failures, you make it out to be a large proportion of their stock.

If I were them, I'd get onto their suppliers and demand an improvement to UK reliability levels.

Maybe your retailers have a deal to get the QA rejects at a lower price?

 

That guy who's JG died, you say he replaced the motor, gears, spring, nozzle and piston? He's replaced all the internals other than the trigger switch, cylinder, cylinder head and tappet plate.

Hardly JG's fault if he doesn't do a good enough job of replacing the internals.

And I know you say he's really good at tuning guns, but everyone makes mistakes.

So unless the cylinder snapped or the cylinder head fell apart, the failure is down to his actions not JG's.

[Connery]

Can you just clarify, because I've always wondered, do you have consumer protection laws in the US? So if you buy something and it doesn't last as long as it should you can get it repaired or replaced? I'm not talking warranties, that's just an agreement with the retailer to repair/replace within a certain time period without hassle. Over here, if you can show that the item you bought hasn't lasted as long as it should have, then the retailer must repair/replace, even if it's beyond the warranty period. Course because of this, most retailers have a warrenty period that covers the reasonable amount of time to save hassle.

 

If the retailer reserves the right to refuse service and clearly states it, then they don't need to repair/replace it. They usually do to keep the consumer happy, though. Beyond the warranty though, everyone charges.

 

The JG armalites I have for renting are 733s (short barrel, less chance of it hitting a tree - in theory) and they're the most solid armalites I've ever used, no barrel wobble, increadibly strong delta ring spring.

The DBoys armalites on the other hand (2 of them s-system) have been quite wobbly. I've had to epoxy the top rail to the body, and then seriously tighten the s-system to it, now they're solid, and there's plenty of room for the batteries (I hear the CASV is quite tight for batteries though).

The M4 had serious barrel wobble, but that just needed tightening up.

Personally, I can't stand airsoft armalites no matter who they're made by, they all seem to have the same failings, they're v2 gearboxes so if you run them on anything over 8.4v you're risking damaging the trigger contacts, they're a pain to get the gearbox out if you need to, the motor floats in the pistol grip so everytime you lay the wires differently you're affecting the motor alignment.

 

No argument on the Dboys there. However, as for JG armalites, I must disagree. The ones I've seen aren't as solid as CA/ICS, and they face all the same problems I've said before. I must put out on the table that anything under a 9.6v barely pushes the JG armalites. The standard 8.4v it comes with works, but not for very long. Remember, this is America, land of the guns that fire well over limits. Not too sure about the ones you guys get, but here, the lowest a JG gun shoots is 350 out of the box.

 

Actually, now that I put a little more thought into the whole battery thing, the JLS FN2000 is the only clone I've seen to come with a 9.6v stock, and it lasts.

 

If your accuracy is down on a ACM, then you just need to change the hop rubber, not sure why you suggested needing to change the whole unit.

Only time I've had to change hop units is when fitting a metal body to a dboys, as the plastic is TM (ie split hop unit) while the metal takes a CA style hop (ie single unit).

 

I've seen a few units go. And not just the rubber. Some folks find ways to totally destroy it. Most people like metal hop up units, too.

 

Besides, even though people change the hop units, the JG guns we tested alongside TM guns weren't as accurate.(Ooh ooh, see? We're still on topic, we're talking about accuracy!)

 

Dboys metal bodies, apart from being rather plain (so no good if you're into realism), are great, they've got shoulder tabs at the back of the upper reciever spreading the load better than CA pins or their new pips. You do often need to either counter sink the selector screw a bit more, or swap it with the one from the plastic body you're replacing though otherwise it can bite into the gearbox causing difficult selector changes.

 

All that great awesomeness with the body, and yet if you can't keep the magazine in the body, then what good is it?

 

I have to question the retailers though if they're getting that many failures, you make it out to be a large proportion of their stock.

If I were them, I'd get onto their suppliers and demand an improvement to UK reliability levels.

Maybe your retailers have a deal to get the QA rejects at a lower price?

 

Don't get me wrong, initially when it's pulled out of the box for the first time, there're no problems whatsoever (aside from the Dboys lack of ability to retain the magazine and the JG M4-S's inability to put a battery in it). So it seems that everything is all fine, everyone is happy. Then the customer rings up the shop a week later, "My gun isn't firing what do I do?"

 

It's weird, some people just throw money at problems. This is the case with JGs: Something breaks, WHO CARES, it only cost me $135! I'll just buy a whole new gun! What's that? Dboys SPR comes with a bipod? I'll just buy that $275 gun instead of only spending $100 on just a bipod and rail adaptor!

 

Stupid, yes, but hey, I'm not the one buying them. And if this is how customers are acting even with the retailers telling them that they should fix the 'minor' problems, then the retailers don't really need to demand anything from the distributors, except more guns.

 

That guy who's JG died, you say he replaced the motor, gears, spring, nozzle and piston? He's replaced all the internals other than the trigger switch, cylinder, cylinder head and tappet plate.

Hardly JG's fault if he doesn't do a good enough job of replacing the internals.

And I know you say he's really good at tuning guns, but everyone makes mistakes.

So unless the cylinder snapped or the cylinder head fell apart, the failure is down to his actions not JG's.

 

The problem is that his entire trigger unit just died. This is the only gun he's ever worked on to have that happen, too. I don't see how it's his fault, seeing as a technician took a look at it and noted that even though everything he replaced is spot on, it's beyond repair. In short, he now has a $300 paperweight. Not to say that it didn't discourage him from just picking up and tuning another gun, but it did discourage him from any clone.

[gunnermaniac]

Thanks marmite, I am going this weekend but it is fine I am going to get the TM M3 shorty and probably shell sling.

 

 

[Xaccers]

Reatailers have more rights than consumers? Ouch!

If someone's going to be clumsy enough to break a plastic hop unit, they're going to break any plastic hop unit. That's a failing of them, not the hop unit.

We get an entire day out of the JG batteries running at 350 fps. Can you confirm what cells your JGs are supplied with?

Of course a plastic gun isn't going to be as solid as a metal one like CA or ICS, but having said that, we've had several metal bodied guns (2 CA, 1 KA) snap in half, one when it was just knocked off a table!

If you're having trouble keeping a mag in the gun, I suggest you tighten the mag release button screw My 3 hold their mags fine.

Like I said, I've got 9 guns I use as rentals, all of them are ACM (with the exception of the ICS MP5, that just has an ACM gearbox as the ICS one cracked), they're all treated rather badly by some renters, yet all are working fine and have done so over the past year or so.

The only ACM guns that have come my way for repairs are R85s and a couple of JG MP5s that weren't feeding (but worked fine for me), all were within the first day of use so got exchanged.

 

On to your mate who is good at tuning, well why did he need to take it to a technician to diagnose the problem?

Is he unable to repair/replace the trigger unit himself for next to nothing?

What had he messed up in order for the trigger unit to fail?

[transist]

The problem is that his entire trigger unit just died. This is the only gun he's ever worked on to have that happen, too. I don't see how it's his fault, seeing as a technician took a look at it and noted that even though everything he replaced is spot on, it's beyond repair. In short, he now has a $300 paperweight.

If your trigger unit blows, don't you just have to buy a new one? Or a new gearbox at most?

Anything short of your gun blowing up or catching fire can pretty much be replaced.

[Connery]

Reatailers have more rights than consumers? Ouch!

 

I admit, it's not just, but if it's not against the law, there's nothing that can be done about it. But like I said, most retailers do what they can to keep the consumer happy.

 

If someone's going to be clumsy enough to break a plastic hop unit, they're going to break any plastic hop unit. That's a failing of them, not the hop unit.

 

True, but I've seen no returns of TM guns and having clones have to go in because of this.

 

We get an entire day out of the JG batteries running at 350 fps. Can you confirm what cells your JGs are supplied with?

 

8.4v 1100 Shuang Bao minis. As you said before, Europe must be lucky. Many people have to buy new batteries, which doesn't make them happy.

 

Of course a plastic gun isn't going to be as solid as a metal one like CA or ICS, but having said that, we've had several metal bodied guns (2 CA, 1 KA) snap in half, one when it was just knocked off a table!

 

I've seen more plastic guns get destroyed that way than CAs. In fact, I know someone that dropped his M15A4, and the only damage done was a dented magazine.

 

If you're having trouble keeping a mag in the gun, I suggest you tighten the mag release button screw My 3 hold their mags fine.

 

We've done that, but the problem is the magazine refused to even catch. If this is how Dboys QUALITY is out of the box, I feel sorry for the kids that buy them as their first guns.

 

Like I said, I've got 9 guns I use as rentals, all of them are ACM (with the exception of the ICS MP5, that just has an ACM gearbox as the ICS one cracked), they're all treated rather badly by some renters, yet all are working fine and have done so over the past year or so.

The only ACM guns that have come my way for repairs are R85s and a couple of JG MP5s that weren't feeding (but worked fine for me), all were within the first day of use so got exchanged.

 

Lucky you, all the SRC rentals I've seen have had some problem or another. Not to say it wasn't fixed, but all of them getting jams/broken tappet plates? That's just weird, don't you think?

 

On to your mate who is good at tuning, well why did he need to take it to a technician to diagnose the problem?

Is he unable to repair/replace the trigger unit himself for next to nothing?

What had he messed up in order for the trigger unit to fail?

 

It was a second opinion. He couldn't figure it out, so he asked someone who fixes guns for a living. The trigger unit was beyond repair, and seeing as he didn't even touch it, nobody could understand what caused it to die. Like I said, the technician noted that everything that was replaced was spot on.

 

If your trigger unit blows, don't you just have to buy a new one? Or a new gearbox at most?

Anything short of your gun blowing up or catching fire can pretty much be replaced.

 

True, but seeing as he didn't touch it, everyone was baffled by it. And like I said a little earlier, "Oh well, it's just a JG. I'll go buy a whole new gun." I'm actually surprised he didn't just go and buy all the separate components and build one himself.

[transist]

The only thing I've noticed about SRC is their sector gears appear to have a larger cam on them for the cutoff lever so if you replace it, you can lose semi (had to do a temporary swap with a mate's TM after his gun chewed it's gears).

'Tis true.

I stripped a sector gear and replaced it with one from a WELL R5 (xyt?). Semi often took an average of 6 shots to catch if it did at all. Just recently I replaced the semi cutoff lever with one from said R5. It works well now, with rare short bursts (2 or 3 shots).

 

Anyways, I plan to upgrade the spring on my SRC to an m110-m120. If I do, I'll let you guys know how it goes. Odds are I'll put in a metal spring guide, metal bushings, and maybe a bearing piston head since I have one laying around. The gun is a GE-0501. Is this an old SRC model? I'm interested in getting some information/opinions on this gun because I haven't been able to find much on it.

[Xaccers]

I admit, it's not just, but if it's not against the law, there's nothing that can be done about it. But like I said, most retailers do what they can to keep the consumer happy.

 

Poor US shoppers

 

 

True, but I've seen no returns of TM guns and having clones have to go in because of this.

 

It happens, even with metal hop units, people over adjust them, crack goes the plastic teeth. One of the things I dislike about that sort of hop, much prefer the rotating barrel type like in the G36, but even they can be broken by clumsy fingers.

 

8.4v 1100 Shuang Bao minis. As you said before, Europe must be lucky. Many people have to buy new batteries, which doesn't make them happy.

 

Very strange, why is your store getting so many duff guns?

Definitely time to get on to the supplier and demand improvements.

Either way, TM/CA/ICS don't supply batteries with their guns, so new batteries have to be bought anyway.

 

I've seen more plastic guns get destroyed that way than CAs. In fact, I know someone that dropped his M15A4, and the only damage done was a dented magazine.

 

Funny you should say that, one guy slipped up with one of the dboys s-systems which I'd fitted a full stock to, landed on the stock snapping it, but no damage to the body of the gun thankfully.

I think gun breakage depends on the circumstances, in certain incidents, an ABS gun would be able to flex and absorbe the impact while a metal body would crack, and in other incidents an ABS body wouldn't have the tensile strength that a metal body has and so breaks.

Having said that, looking at the casting of the CA that snapped, it really is poor!

 

We've done that, but the problem is the magazine refused to even catch. If this is how Dboys QUALITY is out of the box, I feel sorry for the kids that buy them as their first guns.

 

One gun, one single gun with mag catch problems.

UrbanNinja's ICS MP5 hicap wasn't molded properly so it could be pulled out, my TM MP5 cracked it's gearbox in 6 months, Curlyboy's TM M16 mag catch wouldn't hold mags.

Does that mean all ICS MP5 hicaps are bad, or TM V2 gearboxes, or M16's are bad? No of course not. Just bad ones in a batch.

It would be foolish to suggest that they are all bad based on one gun's single issue.

 

 

Lucky you, all the SRC rentals I've seen have had some problem or another. Not to say it wasn't fixed, but all of them getting jams/broken tappet plates? That's just weird, don't you think?

 

Depends how they're used, most rentals will die from user error, using it as a shovel then continuing to fire when the barrel is full of bbs.

Tappet plate breaks, pistons strip.

So far I've been lucky in that the people who've rented from me haven't done that, but I know it will happen to one of the guns one day.

 

It was a second opinion. He couldn't figure it out, so he asked someone who fixes guns for a living. The trigger unit was beyond repair, and seeing as he didn't even touch it, nobody could understand what caused it to die. Like I said, the technician noted that everything that was replaced was spot on.

 

What's to figure out? Trigger units aren't difficult.

The thing with electricals is you don't have to touch a component in the circuit to affect it.

 

ACM are cheap, and you have to be prepaired for issues, however to make out that you're more likely to get a problem than a perfectly working gun isn't true.

If your store is getting more dead ACM than good ones, you really need to contact the supplier to find out why you're getting all the rejects.

 

[Connery]

It happens, even with metal hop units, people over adjust them, crack goes the plastic teeth. One of the things I dislike about that sort of hop, much prefer the rotating barrel type like in the G36, but even they can be broken by clumsy fingers.

 

So why is it happening more often with the clone guns and not the TM ones?

 

Either way, TM/CA/ICS don't supply batteries with their guns, so new batteries have to be bought anyway.

 

Third time: It depends on where you buy the gun.

 

Funny you should say that, one guy slipped up with one of the dboys s-systems which I'd fitted a full stock to, landed on the stock snapping it, but no damage to the body of the gun thankfully.

I think gun breakage depends on the circumstances, in certain incidents, an ABS gun would be able to flex and absorbe the impact while a metal body would crack, and in other incidents an ABS body wouldn't have the tensile strength that a metal body has and so breaks.

Having said that, looking at the casting of the CA that snapped, it really is poor!

 

If I had the money, I'd buy one M4 of every gun and test drop them in the same conditions. However, since I don't...yeah. We're all going to be at a crossroads in this effect, so I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

 

One gun, one single gun with mag catch problems.

UrbanNinja's ICS MP5 hicap wasn't molded properly so it could be pulled out, my TM MP5 cracked it's gearbox in 6 months, Curlyboy's TM M16 mag catch wouldn't hold mags.

 

Problem is it wasn't just that one gun. I was only using it as an example. I personally have seen three Dboys out of the box without being able to hold a magazine of any type, and one JG AK that refused to use TM magazines without modification.

 

Does that mean all ICS MP5 hicaps are bad, or TM V2 gearboxes, or M16's are bad? No of course not. Just bad ones in a batch.

It would be foolish to suggest that they are all bad based on one gun's single issue.

 

Exactly, but for more than three guns (that I know of) to be bad one after the other?

 

Depends how they're used, most rentals will die from user error, using it as a shovel then continuing to fire when the barrel is full of bbs.

Tappet plate breaks, pistons strip.

So far I've been lucky in that the people who've rented from me haven't done that, but I know it will happen to one of the guns one day.

 

All the SRCs that I was talking about were rentals in an arena environment, no room to use the guns as anything other than to pull the trigger.

 

What's to figure out? Trigger units aren't difficult.

The thing with electricals is you don't have to touch a component in the circuit to affect it.

 

Then if you can give us diagnosis on why it died, let me know, I'll make sure to forward your advice to the guy.

 

ACM are cheap, and you have to be prepaired for issues, however to make out that you're more likely to get a problem than a perfectly working gun isn't true.

If your store is getting more dead ACM than good ones, you really need to contact the supplier to find out why you're getting all the rejects.

 

Never said the gun was DOA. I only said there were issues with them out of the box. Sure, it brings the consumer back to the store, but it's unneeded headache/gas money.

[Xaccers]

So why is it happening more often with the clone guns and not the TM ones?

 

Who says it is?

You're getting a small percentage of all the guns sold.

Could be people who spend more on a gun are more likely to be gentle with it.

 

 

Third time: It depends on where you buy the gun.

 

And for the umpteenth time, CA/ICS/TM do not supply batteries with their guns!

A store may throw one in, but CA/ICS/TM do not.

 

Problem is it wasn't just that one gun. I was only using it as an example. I personally have seen three Dboys out of the box without being able to hold a magazine of any type, and one JG AK that refused to use TM magazines without modification.

 

Like I've said, you're getting a gun half the price, you're more likely to get a duff one, hence why you buy from a reputable retailer who'll exchange it without hassle.

The thing is, most of them will be on a par if not better than TMs for half the price.

 

Exactly, but for more than three guns (that I know of) to be bad one after the other?

 

That's what happens with batches, hence why when there's a product recall, they mention dates made or batch numbers, because they came of the production line at the same time. Someone new on the production line messing up will cause problems for that batch.

 

All the SRCs that I was talking about were rentals in an arena environment, no room to use the guns as anything other than to pull the trigger.

 

It only takes a spec of dust or a slightly misshapen bb to cause a jam, or an unserviced hop rubber, and not educating the renter that if the gun stops firing, then don't pull the trigger.

 

Then if you can give us diagnosis on why it died, let me know, I'll make sure to forward your advice to the guy.

 

Got a pic?

 

Never said the gun was DOA. I only said there were issues with them out of the box. Sure, it brings the consumer back to the store, but it's unneeded headache/gas money.

 

Same thing really, they're a minority that have issues, hence why you buy from a reputable retailer.

The majority of ACM are great, out perform TM, some might need a couple of quid spent on them to do so (such as fit a better hop rubber).

 

It's like DVD players, I can go out and buy a £100 one, and 10% of that model could fail in the first month, or I can go down to Walmart and pick one up for £20 and 30% of them could fail in the first month.

Both play DVDs, one costs £80 more than the other, but considering if I get a problem I can get a replacement, is the risk of that worth more or less than the £80 I'm saving?

Look at it like this, you have a £20 DVD player, would you go to Walmart and swap it if someone paid you £80 (approx $160) to do so?

I know I would.

 

[Duckling]

What about a Classic with a LRB.. Those outrange any AEG easily

Purly Myth!

The LRB does nothing a modern Laylax or PDI barrel don't do better.

 

[Physis mode on:]

To get a pellet fly in a flat horisontal trajectory you need to make a force work on the pelet in the opposite direction then the gravitation pull from the earth.

The only way to do this (without a superconducting pellet on at magnetic rig...) is to use the spinn, as the HupUp chamber ind a modern Arisoft gun does.

A good HupUp unite gives the same spin to all pellets, there by giving them the same lift force.

A good precision barrel keeps the pellet steddy, but dont stops the pellet's spin. Or changes the spin the same way fore all pellets.

 

To make the HopUp make the same spin, and the barrel to change this spin the same way, all pellets must be identical and completely round.

 

Therefore Hiquality pelets must be used.

The problem today is that the super heavy 0.43g straight pelet is not precise enough.

 

The last thing that influence the pelet is the speed.

The higher the speed the more drag, and more drag stops the pelet. The drag (DF) on the pelet is depends on speed (V) to at factor DF=V^2.

Derfore the use of heavy pelets, as they have the same kenitic energi (forward force) but lower drag do to lower speed.

Another bonus is that the heavy pelet keeps it spin longer due to higher Inertia.

[Physis mode off:]

 

A high quality BoltAction rifle upgradet to send 0.43g spinning pellets flying af 160m/s have a efective range at aprox 80 meters.

The pellet might go 90, 100 or more, but the accuracy is to low to hit annything fore sure...

(Yes I am Dane, we shoot Airsoft guns like that)

 

 

The youtube clips showing clasic LRB airsoft guns shooting 90 meters, shows (if you look carfuly) that the shooter sends the BB's arching...

That is not longrange precision shooting, that is just dumb throwing pellets into the air.

Dooing this I bet that my APS2 shoots +175meters, if i angel it 45 degrees up...

 

PS: Yes, I do have a physis degree.

[Connery]

Who says it is?

You're getting a small percentage of all the guns sold.

Could be people who spend more on a gun are more likely to be gentle with it.

 

Could be, but from what I've seen, they treat the ones that cost more even more brutally than they treat the cheap ones.

 

And for the umpteenth time, CA/ICS/TM do not supply batteries with their guns!

A store may throw one in, but CA/ICS/TM do not.

 

Then why is it cheaper than paying for a battery and charger?

 

Like I've said, you're getting a gun half the price, you're more likely to get a duff one, hence why you buy from a reputable retailer who'll exchange it without hassle.

The thing is, most of them will be on a par if not better than TMs for half the price.

 

If a consumer damages what comes with the gun and tries to return it to you, would you exchange it without hassle? You now have a product that you cannot sell for the already low price a clone is. That is, unless, you are going to turn to underhanded tactics. If you return it to the distributor, what are they going to do? They're not the one that made the gun, they have no reason to take it back.

 

That's what happens with batches, hence why when there's a product recall, they mention dates made or batch numbers, because they came of the production line at the same time. Someone new on the production line messing up will cause problems for that batch.

 

Then where is the product recall from JG? SRC? Dboys?

 

It only takes a spec of dust or a slightly misshapen bb to cause a jam, or an unserviced hop rubber, and not educating the renter that if the gun stops firing, then don't pull the trigger.

 

I would say, "When was the last time a 12 year old listened to you regarding property that isn't theirs," but I forgot about the difference in cultures and upbringing.

 

Got a pic?

 

No, unfortunately. As soon as it was returned to him, he dumped the gun. Remember, this is America. Throwing away money is as common as breathing here.

 

Same thing really, they're a minority that have issues, hence why you buy from a reputable retailer. The majority of ACM are great, out perform TM, some might need a couple of quid spent on them to do so (such as fit a better hop rubber).

 

I really can't comment on ACM being good, considering the only ACM gun I've actually seen the internals of had reversed wiring straight from China. An easy fix, yes, but if this is how it is straight from the factory, then that tells you something. Seeing that I've read on here that many ACM M14s shared this problem, something really doesn't sound right with their quality control.

 

And at another shop that I started seeing clones in recently, those ones die within three days use. And they're not even reputable in that sense. Not to mention, they're asking $200 for a TM Mk23.

 

It's like DVD players, I can go out and buy a £100 one, and 10% of that model could fail in the first month, or I can go down to Walmart and pick one up for £20 and 30% of them could fail in the first month.

Both play DVDs, one costs £80 more than the other, but considering if I get a problem I can get a replacement, is the risk of that worth more or less than the £80 I'm saving?

Look at it like this, you have a £20 DVD player, would you go to Walmart and swap it if someone paid you £80 (approx $160) to do so?

I know I would.

 

You know, I would argue this one, but I can't, considering that everything I've gotten at Wal*Mart is all name-brand. And considering Wal*Mart isn't any cheaper than Sears...yeah. Wal*Mart is just convenience here. There's nothing special about it.