2 tone guns - what do we think ?

[tom_chant_uk]

Care to quote the part of the defence which states membership is required?

 

It's part of the accompanying guidelines that are to be read in conjunction with the defence.

 

21. For manufacturers, importers and vendors to claim one of the defences, they must be able to show that their conduct was for purpose of making realistic imitation firearms available for one of the reasons specified in the defences above. How they should satisfy themselves of this will vary from case to case and it might be advisable for them to keep a record of this for each transaction. In some cases they could ask to see, for example, a letter from the commissioning film or television company. In others, for example an importer, they might want to rely on orders from a supplier to the film industry. For re-enactments, it would be advisable to ask to see any membership card and to check that either the individual or the re-enactment society holds the required insurance. For airsoft skirmishing, the Association of British Airsoft is putting in place arrangements to allow retailers to check that individual purchasers are members of a genuine skirmishing club or site. The key elements of these arrangements are:

 

* new players must play at least 3 times in a period of not less than 2 months the 2 months before being offered membership;

 

* membership cards with a photograph and recognized format will be issued for production to retailers;

 

* a central database will be set up for retailers to cross-check a purchaser's details; and

 

* a member's entry on the database will be deleted if unused for 12 months.

 

As confirmed by Minimiman and 3 lawyers (one of which is Boomer).

 

Tom.

[BigAl]

At the time the ABA were fighting the then VCRB, these 2-tones were not in existence, it's only after it became law that certain retailers approached the manufacturers to have these made.

 

The defence was granted because airsoft skirmishing needed RIFs to partake in said skirmishing else it wouldn't be airsoft skirmishing. The fight against the VCRB was nothing to do with uniform or tactical kit.

 

 

 

So you're telling me that an IF with all of the predominate unrealistic colour covered (so it's not visible) by scrim/netting/gun-sleeve is not realistic looking?

 

Of course it's realistic looking as it's an IF that's been modified to 'look' like a RIF albeit temporarily.

 

Tom.

 

Of course it isn't it's an IF. The scrim netting is not fixed to the gun it is draped over it. Camo tape would probably count as modified but drapping a rag over it is simply that. It's like saying running around in public clothed is streaking because you have a naked body under the clothes!

[Xaccers]

It's part of the accompanying guidelines that are to be read in conjunction with the defence.

 

 

 

As confirmed by Minimiman and 3 lawyers (one of which is Boomer).

 

Tom.

 

Which it clearly states is for the (now) UKARA database to cover retailers use of it rather than direct evidence of airsoft being the purpose of purchase.

 

Of course it isn't it's an IF. The scrim netting is not fixed to the gun it is draped over it. Camo tape would probably count as modified but drapping a rag over it is simply that. It's like saying running around in public clothed is streaking because you have a naked body under the clothes!

 

Excellent analogy.

[tom_chant_uk]

Of course it isn't it's an IF. The scrim netting is not fixed to the gun it is draped over it. Camo tape would probably count as modified but drapping a rag over it is simply that. It's like saying running around in public clothed is streaking because you have a naked body under the clothes!

 

It doesn't matter whether it's not fixed to the gun or not. You have modified an IF into a RIF by altering it's appearance.

 

Tom.

[BigAl]

Bit dodgy I thought, but you sort of get where i'm coming from. BAsically an IF covered in a gun rag isn't an RIF it's an IF covered in a RIGR (Realistic Imitation Gun Rag) and RIGR's aren't covere'd by the VCRA.

[imp1864]

The act is set up to be vague. I personally wouldn't consider a scrim net to be manufacturing a RIF. Painting yes, draping a cloth or rag No. Everyone is too cought up in there own personal interperation of an act which has not been tested in court. Until a case law definition of what constitutes Maunfacture of a RIF, ie painting, scrim netting, covering it in mud, is written, conjecture is once again pointless.

[mattmanic]

It doesn't matter whether it's not fixed to the gun or not. You have modified an IF into a RIF by altering it's appearance.

 

Tom.

 

But from what I gather that is not illeagal as he can use the skirmisher defense, what ever age he is.

[Xaccers]

But from what I gather that is not illeagal as he can use the skirmisher defense, what ever age he is.

 

 

Exactly, they are able to show it's for the purpose laid out by the defence by actually participating in an approved event, ie airsofting at a site which holds PLI.

Retailers are able to avail themselves to the defence (something a certain 3 lawyers appear to have missed) because they are importing guns and selling them for the purpose laid out in the defence (but not if they're right abotu the memo).

See that's the thing about misinterpreting the home office information memo, all retailers who are not members of an airsoft site would be breaking the law by importing, or selling to other non-airsofting retailers as trade, if those lawyers are correct.

 

Tsk, best phone the police and get them to visit all retailers to check their site membership...

[GuzziHero]

Sounds to me like a very poor excuse (and it is an excuse) to discriminate against 2-tone owners for something that isnt their own fault such as age or just the fact they havent played 3 times yet.

[Fin]

Im pretty sure hes discriminating against us younger players, you dont have to buy a two tone gun, nobody is making you.

 

And in the mind of thinking covering up the two tone parts is illegal will i be arrested should i get part of the green dirty? What if a leave falls on it?

[creepingfear]

saw one on sunday, wasnt as vibrant as i expected, but still disgusting...

me and the marshals talked about the owner banning em from the site...

R

 

Banning something from a site based purely on it's colour?

 

If that is the (apparent) attitude of your site owner/marshalls, then they are idiots of the highest order.

 

Banning hot guns - yes thats understandable. But to contemplate banning something based on it's looks is just childish and immature.

 

I bet if your site had a bus load of people turning up to a game and they all had 2 toners and a wallet full of cash, I bet your site wouldn't be contemplating that idea then.

[GuzziHero]

Patience, young padawan. You will soon learn that Belladonna is one of Arnies resident foaming-mouth flamebaiters

[WeirdoTransvestite]

And you guys whined when people suggested idea of orange tips.

 

Something tells me that wouldn't be so bad now....

[creepingfear]

I know I never whinged at orange tips. I wouldn't have been bothered either way. I know I could very easily hold my own during a game with either an orange tip or 2 toner (and a bloody big ROF box mag) .

[imp1864]

Im pretty sure hes discriminating against us younger players, you dont have to buy a two tone gun, nobody is making you.

 

And in the mind of thinking covering up the two tone parts is illegal will i be arrested should i get part of the green dirty? What if a leave falls on it?

 

 

Exactly, I know there is a seperate thread, but the elitism which is slowly creeping into airsoft, just annoys me. So go an get your two tone guns and get out there and have some fun, then I can laugh at you, when you laugh at me for being a geardo, because at the end of the day its meant to be fun. Once it stops becoming fun and gets into the realm of you can't go there because of the colour of your gun, is the day I'll pack it in. So say no to gun apartide.

[Xaccers]

And you guys whined when people suggested idea of orange tips.

 

Something tells me that wouldn't be so bad now....

 

 

Nah if there was orange tips, there probably wouldn't be the ability to replace them.

At least 2tones can be resprayed by airsofters.

 

 

imp1864, very well said mate!

Without 2tones, you'd have no under 18's able to enter the sport, and no low income people who can't afford to rent then buy a gun.

Lets also not forget that it helps keep airsoft retailers in business.

[Red Von Hammer]

I donno any good way to express my feelings on the matter, so I`ll make it short:

 

 

The only two toned guns I like are those of this kind:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your understanding!

 

 

RvH

[mattmanic]

I donno any good way to express my feelings on the matter, so I`ll make it short:

 

The only two toned guns I like are those of this kind:

 

Thanks for your understanding!

 

 

RvH

 

Understanding of what? Why would you have seen any two tones? You live in Norway. The law is for the UK and the UK only.

 

 

saw one on sunday, wasnt as vibrant as i expected, but still disgusting...

me and the marshals talked about the owner banning em from the site...

R

 

I would understand if it was a one off milsim event but you are talking about an airsoft game. A game is for fun, you might not have noticed but airsoft isn't all about realism if thats why you dislike two tones. What we shoot will only go about 150ft and you can save your self by hiding behind a hedge. Now go and find someone with a real gun, tell them to shoot you and try hiding behind a hedge.

 

PS Only joking about the you-death thing... But the realism stuff still goes.

[Warning]

hook line and sinker

[Pablo]

On the whole "wrapping it in scrim netting makes it a RIF" thing - you can state that it does, you can state that it isn't, you can declare that it makes it a pizza if it makes you feel better 'cos it's still JUST YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT IN LAW because it hasn't been tested in court yet (and hopefully never will be). I've given up attempting to define what's what as far as the VCRA is concerned because I simply don't know yet. The opinion of the famous Three Lawyers are just the same, but they carry the weight of experience. I think they're wrong personally and that any judge who takes a similar view will also be wrong, but only in MY opinion. Fact is, my opinion counts for squat in court - same as yours.

 

Just remember that next time you feel like making a statement of fact that's actually an opinion.

 

Now: IF a site wants to ban two tones, that's up to the site. It'll also be up to me to decide whether I want to play there, same goes for you.

[Red Von Hammer]

Understanding of what? Why would you have seen any two tones? You live in Norway. The law is for the UK and the UK only.

 

Because I didn`t find another way to express my support to you?..

Look mattmanic m8, if u don`t want foreign support and the case said from a different body that`s ok with me.

But my problem with your aggressive reply here m8 is that the first poster never said anything about foreigner`s not being eligible to post in this topic, nor this forum m8..

 

If I ever go to England for a skirmish, and I see half a team with 2 toned guns, only then I have the right to concern? Norwegian government has a rather bad politics of following UK`s law makers for a spin (We got smoking in taverns and cafe`s forbidden even before you officially declared it.) who knows, they might put 2 toned gun law into effect when it comes to ALL airsofts here in Norway. So for once I`d like to do MY voice (As is my right.) But if you can`t understand m8 (Which you clearly showed in your above post. Posting before thinking about or even asking for my reasons) I`d suggest we take a PM conference to solve our differences rather then garbaging out on the forum, or we can leave it at this m8, your call.

 

 

S!

 

RvH

 

 

[Cannonfodder80]

Personally I don't like the look of 2 tone guns but yes they do have their place (under 18 etc all thats been stated before.) As for the "it is/isn't manufacturing if you wrap it in a scrim net!!" debate I've started a thread in the VCRA Q&A section and Minimiiman has given the clearest awnser so far

[Pablo]

Yep - like I said, it's up to a judge, not us.

[minimiman]

My opinion is that they are the anti-christ of airsoft.

 

Our defence was won on the principle of the suspension of disbelief and that realistic imitation firearms uphold this.

 

Not to mention that the government were told that having unrealistically coloured RIFs would defeat the point of skirmishing and the fact that they weren't availble and couldn't be be made available.

 

Tom.

I have maintained that 2 tones are not a problem to the airsoft defence for good reason.

 

During representation at the Home Office and a meeting with Hazel Blears, officials told us ( the delegation championing airsoft) they had recieved lots of correspondance and despite our claims realism was needed in airsoft, some of the correspondance was from people that didn't require realism.

 

Our reply was yes, there may be some that don't require realism to play and they are probably younger players, but the vast majority of players in the UK need realism to maintain the suspension of disbelief and get the full enjoyment from airsoft as a participation sport. It was likened to a child playing war with stick as a gun, but as people mature they require more visual props to maintain the illusion. Somebody lying in a ditch in the rain is more likely to maintain a level of enjoyment that would dissapear if they had a bright orange gun.

 

We won the defence even with some people writing to ministers asking for any type of functioning weapon being acceptable for airsoft. Despite letters from surposed airsofters saying they didn't need realism and they would be quite happy with clear plastic guns, as long as they worked, we won the defence.

 

So, a few youngsters playing airsoft at sites with 2 tone guns is going to make no difference at all to the airsoft defence, ministers are expecting that to happen.

 

2tone guns are not the airsoft anti christ, the GCN is, please direct your wrath there, not at under 18 players being given 2 tones because they have no choice.

[AK47 bullet]

I do not like 2 tone guns personally but I believe they're acceptable if you really want a airsoft gun and you're not a member of UKARA. It may not look realistic but it gets the job done.