GBB M4's Confiscated and Destroyed

[-=OGGY=-]

Although your intentions are right, you do not need a license to buy a firearm. To place an order out of state, yes, but not to outright buy one at a store. I believe you mean a form 4473 was filled out and a background check conducted.

 

Yeah, what I ment was that I could buy all parts to an M4 except the lower receiver very easialy, but to buy a functioning firearm there are many more hoops that I would need to jump through.

 

-OGGY

[Megalomaniac]

Why is the issue of the conversion to an illegal firearm still being argued over? The guns were seized and destroyed due to a violation of customs laws not because of an inherent illegality in their existence.

[-=OGGY=-]

I was responding to Hispeed's comment.

[Kalmar]

Why is the issue of the conversion to an illegal firearm still being argued over? The guns were seized and destroyed due to a violation of customs laws not because of an inherent illegality in their existence.

 

Because if Customs is stupid enough to say something like that, they are stupid enough to believe it... and possibly do something about it. If they had just stuck to reporting the facts in this instance there wouldn't be any problem here. Instead they put out false information for whatever reason and some people like myself fear those words may lead to further problems if acted upon.

[Seraphim989]

So basically...most of this thread has been a huge overreaction.

[The General]

So basically...most of this thread has been a huge overreaction.

 

May I refer you to post 54 in this thread!

[Seraphim989]

Nay sir, you may not

[hunter512]

Taken from the comments on the page in question,

 

"All you McGuyvers out there clueless. Yes, this is technically a toy. But the manufactures scoped this gun out so that it can be retrofitted with actual gun parts to create a semi auto weapon that has no serial number and is untraceable.A perfect weapon for a group of people who want to do harm and at the same time keep anonymity. Can you think of anybody who might be interested in having this capability?"

 

That may just be the single most stupid comment I've ever seen in my life, apparently WE are now suppliers in chief to the Axis of Evil. Where in the name of all that's holy did the guy come up with this particular factoid?

[WhiteHawksan]

I wouldn't be looking in all that holy, or all that's evil, that's a whole new level below that.

[Frontiers]

http://airsoftoutletnw.com/index.php/20100...t-Standard.html

 

here is the story, go check it out, good information of the situation.

[aznriptide859]

Another reason why the ATF/CBP are a bunch of a**hats.

 

Maybe they should bring them through Alaska lol...that's how most eHobby shipments get to the US, and I'm getting CBP is very lenient up there.

[creepingfear]

My heads done in reading all the posts in this thread. Has the US powers that be actually made any retort to the counter claims made by the retailer in question regarding the seizure?

[CommieHunter]

It can be very frustrating to read assumptions based on assumptions from those that don't know the whole story.

 

That whole bit about stuff being imported and ditched? It sounds great, but it's a line.

 

 

When you read that they are 'being imported without the proper paperwork', this is the way ATF is making that claim.

 

You need a license to import REAL FIREARMS. (an FFL)

 

The WE M4 can be converted to a Machine Gun (a real firearm)

 

Since the WE M4 can be converted to a real firearm, it must be a real firearm.

 

Since the WE M4 is a firearm, you need proper permits and licensing to import them (an FFL).

 

 

I work with importing airsoft replicas. You do not need any type of licensing or permits to import airsoft replicas.

 

 

Also, lots of other stuff in this thread is mostly talking, but I do not have time to work it all out right now.

 

Megalomaniac, no importation laws were broken unless these can be converted. See above.

 

Also, ATF has not responded to any counter claims. If you catch the video of an interview, they are currently requiring a Freedom of Information Act Claim be filed just so the store can get the full report on why these were originally siezed. I.E. "We took your replicas, because they break the law. We do not have to tell you why. If you want to know what law you broke, you must jump through these hoops first. We do not have to be accountable."

 

http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/mediacen...mp;navCatId=156

[bbondaloose]

I give a lot of respect to the Koin news station for actually getting the Airsoft Outlet's store owners side of the story, and showing what these "machine guns" are. The news station seem to actually be siding with the owner, with the way the reporter said they ARE only TOY GUNS, and how he would need to file a Claim for the complete info.

 

In the end, ATF basically took his $10,000, and threw it down the drain, by destroying the guns. That doesn't sound atrociously governmental power overhaul or anything. Shouldn't the owner have a saying or a court decision before the guns were destroyed?

[elrey]

Very Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw: "Any kid, any parent, any adult going out of the house with this... needs to be ready for trouble."

 

So, walking around in public with anything that looks an assault rifle is a bad idea. Thanks for the update, chief.

 

I hope the Martins DO file a request under the FOIA and get some answers. I'm still curious as to what exactly constitutes "minimal work" and what the definition of a machine gun is.

[Skip]

The BATF here in the US has been completely out of control since Reagan left office.

 

Absolutely clueless renegades that make up laws as they go and with zero accountability or control of their actions.

 

The only possible way to reign them is with massive exposure of their abuses by the media. Once the typically ignorant US voter is aware, maybe some outrage will make them acountable.

[RayL]

I give a lot of respect to the Koin news station for actually getting the Airsoft Outlet's store owners side of the story, and showing what these "machine guns" are. The news station seem to actually be siding with the owner, with the way the reporter said they ARE only TOY GUNS, and how he would need to file a Claim for the complete info.

 

In the end, ATF basically took his $10,000, and threw it down the drain, by destroying the guns. That doesn't sound atrociously governmental power overhaul or anything. Shouldn't the owner have a saying or a court decision before the guns were destroyed?

 

They simply could of had the shipment sent back to Taiwan and had the distributor reimburse Airsoft Outlet for at least a partial refund. It seems to me like a total abuse of power by the ATF.

[ncthorn]

The BATF here in the US has been completely out of control since Reagan left office.

 

Absolutely clueless renegades that make up laws as they go and with zero accountability or control of their actions.

 

The only possible way to reign them is with massive exposure of their abuses by the media. Once the typically ignorant US voter is aware, maybe some outrage will make them acountable.

 

I agree in every way.

[vindicator65]

It is understandable, how anyone who works with firearms/law enforcement would be concerned about the lever of realism in GBB rifles.

 

I have been an avid airsofter for years with a love of M4's, I have also spent a lot of time handling the real steel weapons, and I must say a was taken aback by how similar the buffer system/bolt and trigger group was, so i can appreciate the level of concern.

 

I am always the first one to get annoyed when there are stories about banning AEGs because they can be converted to fire live rounds - when the truth is most TV remote's could be converted to fire live rounds - given the correct amount of engineering know how, a few CNC lathes and a ###### load of cash.

 

The fact remains that the more realistic you make these RIFs, the more likely you are to run into this sort of problem.

 

I have no doubt that there have been a few nutters that have successfully converted GBBs to at least send one round into their neighbouring caravan, before metal fatigue sets in and causes the thing to explode.

These people will always exist its a fact of life,

 

What we need is better birth control, and a modicum of common sense employed when selling GBBs.

 

 

P.s Loved the comment about the orange tips.

 

Can't wait until crimm's start painting the tips of real steel orange - that'll screw the system! LOL

[WhiteHawksan]

P.s Loved the comment about the orange tips.

 

Can't wait until crimm's start painting the tips of real steel orange - that'll screw the system! LOL

 

they already do... I believe that was a factor in the banning of ALL RS and RIFs in NY?

[DyNo!]

they already do... I believe that was a factor in the banning of ALL RS and RIFs in NY?

 

That's because both are weapons that can be modified to propel projectiles at dangerous velocities. What do you need a gun for in New York anyway - even if it is airsoft?

[Megalomaniac]

RS and RIFs are legal in New York, just not New York City...... remember there is a whole huge state around NYC. Also AFIAK RS is still legal in NYC to an extent.

[Stealthbomber]

It can be very frustrating to read assumptions based on assumptions from those that don't know the whole story.

 

That whole bit about stuff being imported and ditched? It sounds great, but it's a line.

 

 

When you read that they are 'being imported without the proper paperwork', this is the way ATF is making that claim.

 

You need a license to import REAL FIREARMS. (an FFL)

 

The WE M4 can be converted to a Machine Gun (a real firearm)

 

Since the WE M4 can be converted to a real firearm, it must be a real firearm.

 

Since the WE M4 is a firearm, you need proper permits and licensing to import them (an FFL).

 

 

I work with importing airsoft replicas. You do not need any type of licensing or permits to import airsoft replicas.

 

 

Also, lots of other stuff in this thread is mostly talking, but I do not have time to work it all out right now.

 

You know, I'm pretty clueless about US law but I'd bet my house that you DO need to fill-out some paperwork before you are allowed to import stuff for commercial purposes.

 

If the resons we've been given are to be believed, this is nothing to do with the WE M4s being "firearms". It's because a shipment of items of commercial value was shipped into the USA without the proper paperwork.

In that case, the same thing would have happened if it'd been a container full of plastic dog turds or TV sets.

 

They simply could of had the shipment sent back to Taiwan and had the distributor reimburse Airsoft Outlet for at least a partial refund. It seems to me like a total abuse of power by the ATF.

That kinda misses the point though.

 

Point being that people are supposed to get punished for breaking the law.

They're not supposed to get a C- and the opportunity to have another go.

 

If you import something illegaly it SHOULD get seized and confiscated.

How would it be if somebody tried to import a container full of drugs and they got seized? "Oh, send it back so the guy can get a refund"?

 

Yes, it IS wasteful to destroy illegally imported stuff.

It makes me cry to see brand new Porsche Caymens and BMW X6s crushed after being seized on the docks in various eastern European ports but it happens every day because the people importing them without doing the correct paperwork are breaking the law.

[liquidflorian]

That kinda misses the point though.

 

Point being that people are supposed to get punished for breaking the law.

They're not supposed to get a C- and the opportunity to have another go.

 

If you import something illegaly it SHOULD get seized and confiscated.

How would it be if somebody tried to import a container full of drugs and they got seized? "Oh, send it back so the guy can get a refund"?

No, Its not missing the point; the gbbs were seized by the ATF for being "machine guns" not for being improperly shipped. In their statement they say they were going to release the shipment until the ATF stepped in...

 

And yes, if WE neglected to put orange tips on the rifles they're probably in violation of their agreement with them. Whether or not they'll reimburse them is another story.

 

[lambolurker]

I wonder if anyone else (individual orders) has been affected by this incident.

 

I'm a bit worried so I'm thinking of holding off on my orders for now.