WETTI is divorcing WE Europe, and its nasty

[LordElpus]

If you have a good look at the WE's P90 prototype there does appear to be a internal tank and it was surmised that the mags are refilling the internal tank when you swap mags. This may also be the reason for the burst of escaping gas on the "sneak peak" video someone did as the internal tank was probably mostly full along with the mag when he removed it from the gun.

 

Either way it appears that this is another non-story. Which reminds me, aren't we overdue a Ebaybanned crisis?

[scorch]

Which reminds me, aren't we overdue a Ebaybanned crisis?

 

Am closing? Oh noes! Where are we gonna buy that falls apart now?

[DEVILHUNTER]

Small pressure regulator and a expansion chamber, upside down mag problems solved. In paintball they use this setup for years.

 

I'm not a fan of P90 but a stamped steel receiver G3 GBB with realistic internals would be so much win, and is not hard to do at all.

[scorch]

Why so fixated on realistic internals?

 

I accept that the externals are going to be pre-determined by the real steel due to the nature of the hobby, but surely trying to work around internals designed for something else is an unnecessary constraint, making it even more inefficient?

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Why so fixated on realistic internals?

 

I accept that the externals are going to be pre-determined by the real steel due to the nature of the hobby, but surely trying to work around internals designed for something else is an unnecessary constraint, making it even more inefficient?

+1 - I'm seeing similar comments regarding the TM M4 - They've made internal design decisions that could benefit the efficiency of the gun etc - but people are seeing that as a downside.

[ShinSeiki]

I'm totally for a WE european rep that understands the wants and needs of the EU market. Their willingness to push WE taiwan on thinks like quality control and parts reengeneering makes them OK in my book. WETTI on the other hand...

[allizard]

Why so fixated on realistic internals?

 

I accept that the externals are going to be pre-determined by the real steel due to the nature of the hobby, but surely trying to work around internals designed for something else is an unnecessary constraint, making it even more inefficient?

 

That seems to be one of the eternal battle on design philosophy between various Japanese toy gun makers.    

 

I think majority of the consumer nowadays just want something that works, having realistic internal is just a bonus.  

[Inq Eisenhorn]

+1 - I'm seeing similar comments regarding the TM M4 - They've made internal design decisions that could benefit the efficiency of the gun etc - but people are seeing that as a downside.

 

 

Why so fixated on realistic internals?

 

I accept that the externals are going to be pre-determined by the real steel due to the nature of the hobby, but surely trying to work around internals designed for something else is an unnecessary constraint, making it even more inefficient?

 

I agree with this. Although it took me a while to come to terms with it. I think, for collectors, having realistic internals is a big thing, obviously, as it adds a level of authenticity they would (in some cases) otherwise never posses. However, from a purely airsoft gaming aspect, there is absolutely no need for the gun to be anything like the actual real steel. That said.....and I don't want to delve into the "which system is best" debate, but then it raises the question about the importance of recoil type guns, who try to give as much "external" realism in both function and looks, while ignoring any need to be realistic on the inside. I wonder if the gripes regarding internal realism is because, one of the major selling points of GBBR is their respect to realism....perhaps in some peoples opinion, if you lose this benefit, does the whole proposal of GBBR become ultimately pointless.

[renegadecow]

Given the poor sales of this thing (and other things similar like the AIM SVD), yes.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Given the poor sales of this thing (and other things similar like the AIM SVD), yes.

 

Good point, I never even thought about those things. However, I remember thinking about buying the G&G GBBR solution, and every time I thought it was (maybe) a good idea, I realised it was (IMHO) pointless as it offered me none of the "benefits" of an AEG but all of the "drawbacks" of a GIM system.....but with some recoil (which was actually reasonably strong)......

[DEVILHUNTER]

That is the point Inq Eisenhorn, I like GBBR because of the realism of function and appearing. Performance is not the more important point to me, there are a lot of players that only care about performance and they will never move from AEG.

 

For example, some years ago, I started to design a G36 GBB with realistic (you have my desing on YouTube) but then GHK come with a prototype of one, but WE make them first with their M4 trigger group. Well I now the G39 is a great gun, but the internal look is so horrible to me (if I can design it, other can do it also) that I will never buy it, I would buy the VFC insted. Every body now about the VFC problems, but some if some parts broke, thats not a problema to me, I can try to make them with pretty good material, the reason I don't buy a VFC one is the lack of CO2 mags (and the G39 also have not).

 

Also, take a well proved that works RS trigger group and make some mods to fit a valve knocker is pretty easy compared with designing the whole trigger group from start.

[Algy]

Agreed, as long as it looks good on the outside and slings bbs well enough, I don't think most players are too bothered.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

That is the point Inq Eisenhorn, I like GBBR because of the realism of function and appearing. Performance is not the more important point to me, there are a lot of players that only care about performance and they will never move from AEG.

 

For example, some years ago, I started to design a G36 GBB with realistic (you have my desing on YouTube) but then GHK come with a prototype of one, but WE make them first with their M4 trigger group. Well I now the G39 is a great gun, but the internal look is so horrible to me (if I can design it, other can do it also) that I will never buy it, I would buy the VFC insted. Every body now about the VFC problems, but some if some parts broke, thats not a problema to me, I can try to make them with pretty good material, the reason I don't buy a VFC one is the lack of CO2 mags (and the G39 also have not).

 

Also, take a well proved that works RS trigger group and make some mods to fit a valve knocker is pretty easy compared with designing the whole trigger group from start.

 

I'm pretty sure using a real steel trigger group in the UK would illegal, but I appreciate that for your region it might be ok.

 

Maybe this is one of the biggest challenges with airsoft products, those products need to try to cater for quite a wide range of sub-interests within the "sport".....this is also one of my gripes when people talk about one product being BEST over another, I just can't see how any one product could hope to meet everyones needs.....

[Rob15]

Maybe this is one of the biggest challenges with airsoft products, those products need to try to cater for quite a wide range of sub-interests within the "sport".

I think this is a fair point, it's already a very niche "sport" but then you have a load of even more niche groups in it who want different things, must be a nightmare for manufacturers.

 

Thing is, we don't seem to demand such realism from the internals of gas pistols do we? When was the last time someone pulled the slide back on a real pistol to find a BBU, loading nozzle and valve knocker? Obviously they're pretty realistic overall but I think they have the balance between performance and realism right which is why you've got more chance of seeing me with a Glock in a HERA kit than most of the current GBBrs (GHK G5 being the only one I'd like).

 

I thought the whole point of a GBBr was to have it stop firing when empty, more noise, more recoil and have a more realistic mag change/reload procedure, not something that looks pretty when you take it apart, or is it just me?

 

[Habakure]

I think (for me personally) the realism factor is this (from the pistol perspective); To fire, rack slide and chamber a round. Fire and watch the slide cycle to chamber another round. Once empty, slide is locked back exposing the breach. Empty mag is evicted and a fresh fully loaded mag is inserted and slide is released. That's what I love about gbb pistols. Sure non blow back pistols are more accurate and more efficient, but boy are gbb pistols more fun.

 

The same (albeit in a slightly different procedure) applies to gbb rifles. So long as the reloading and locked when empty, is present, then I'm a happy bunny (as realistic as you can get).

[DEVILHUNTER]

Of course in pistols is harder to get the shapes, and of course there will be always differences since airsoft must shot 6mm bbs and not bullets. Also I don't mean to use RS parts, just look similar, here would be banned also.

 

There will be always people that like the realistic look and people that don't care too much. Well, imagine you are an airsoft manufacturer, and you want to make the G3 because there are not other brands making it and there are people that want it. You have to make a decision, make a whole new system or modify the RS design (always being legal) to make it works great with GBB mags. The cost of both is similar.

 

The people that want this G3, some of them don't care about the internal look and others do. If you make it "not realistic", the guys that like internals won't buy it, but if you make it "realistic" both will buy it, it's just better for your company.

[renegadecow]

^

^

I feel that way towards revolvers. As far as the operation of the weapon goes from firing to reloading, I find it more fun when they're as close to the real thing as possible hence my preference for shell fed models. I couldn't care less that there's a gas tank in the grip or that the internal mechanism is far from realistic. Just like how I don't mind feed lips on GBBs, but I would like an accurate method of field strip for ease of cleaning even though the individual components aren't spot on.

[Rob15]

The people that want this G3, some of them don't care about the internal look and others do. If you make it "not realistic", the guys that like internals won't buy it, but if you make it "realistic" both will buy it.

While in theory that is true I don't think it actually is, if having realistic internals means compromised performance compared to less realistic then I certainly won't buy it and it'd potentially put people who are more interested in skirmish performance off too.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

The people that want this G3, some of them don't care about the internal look and others do. If you make it "not realistic", the guys that like internals won't buy it, but if you make it "realistic" both will buy it, it's just better for your company.

 

I wonder if this is completely true. If this were the case WA type rifles would be out selling everything else, as (unless I'm wrong) this is perhaps the most (internally) realistic GBBR system of them all. In reality, people complain alot about various aspects of the rifle and the magazines, etc. You could argue that, in fact, rifles that are less realistic enjoy a much higher market share (especially in the UK) than the WA / WOC rifles.

[DEVILHUNTER]

As I said, the realistic one would work also great.

 

WA design is not near pefect in this point, the main problem is the flat gas route and, since there are a lot of companies that makes part from them, tolerance issues. With a slant gas route, the performance or problems that could give to you decrease. But with the correct gas, correct lubricant and a proper mantenience they work great.

 

There are examples of great realism with extremely great performance. The WE M14 (once you solve the problems that have because the bad matherials, part 54, nozzle guides and split trigger group) works pretty well, and you have to take into account that due the original design of the M14 rifle, make an airsoft GBBR M14 with realistic internal is extremely hard, but WE did it!

[Bando]

 

I wonder if this is completely true. If this were the case WA type rifles would be out selling everything else, as (unless I'm wrong) this is perhaps the most (internally) realistic GBBR system of them all. In reality, people complain alot about various aspects of the rifle and the magazines, etc. You could argue that, in fact, rifles that are less realistic enjoy a much higher market share (especially in the UK) than the WA / WOC rifles.

 

 

But WA GBBR also have a pretty bad rep round these parts that may be why they arnt outselling everything.

[Stuey]

For me at least, it's 'external' realism that's important - GBBs are fun because you have to operate them in the same manner as a real gun (manual of arms? Is that the right term?), and they sound better. Recoil is fun, but I'd rather a gun with a light bolt that cycles reliably in the cold. The clacking and realistic operation is enough tbh. I also find GBBs easier to work on than AEGs. But I really don't care if the designer made some changes to the internal to make it work better. As along as it looks and works right on the outside, that's what I want. 

 

but I would like an accurate method of field strip for ease of cleaning even though the individual components aren't spot on.

 

This, field stripping is good even if the bolt and trigger and whatever don't look 100% like the real one.

 

I thought the whole point of a GBBr was to have it stop firing when empty, more noise, more recoil and have a more realistic mag change/reload procedure, not something that looks pretty when you take it apart, or is it just me?

 

TL;DR - mostly this, actually.

[Roland1014]

I am attracted to 'realistic' internals. That is why WEs rifle system (save for the M14) does not appeal to me. I like to push out the rear pin on an AR and see all the familiar parts.

 

However, I believe that, generally, GBB Pistols have reached a satisfying level of 'realism', function-wise.

 

[1st Commando]

The G3 (if it happens) will likely have an upscaled version of the WE MP5 trigger group which is extremely close to the real thing 

[Westcoast100]

If you contact WE directly they have a totally different view to what is being pushed on this forum by WE Europe.