bankz5152 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Now whos off topic? To add theres a chap on Airsoft Canada that installed a Remington competition trigger and lifter which he states has improved the shotty overall. http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=162618&page=4 Edited October 27, 2014 by bankz5152 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Now whos off topic? He might implode, be careful . However it is down to users to divert topics back as they see fit. If you want to go to a place with more specific topics that people stick rigirously too then I am sure they exist. Here it is a mish-mash of things but for many that is how we like it, makes it easier to chat rather than sticking to 'this is a topic about this gun, you will only talk about this gun, nothing else'. In fact if that was the case would we then not end up with too many topics open in case someone wnated to talk about something else. Swings both ways and seems to be best as it is . As for the APS is it still rather expensive to run in general? I have noticed that the cost of shells, wads and the rest of it still seems to really limit this gun not just in terms of it being a shell ejector but also in reloading the thing. For me I like fun that isn't expensive or too impractical and I just feel this falls out of that category if it is still as expensive to work as it seemed in the news thread . 'FireKnife' 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) IMO it's not that expensive to run. It's more the initial buy in that's a lot. If you use the shell catcher, which you should if you play with it, and you play indoors, and do a lap around the arena afterwards you should be able to recover most plastic wads. I got 55 out of 60 back from my indoor game. Paper caps can be produced with a paper punch as mentioned. So, relatively expensive perhaps, but not as expensive as it could be. Reloading for me was quicker than I expected. LIke I said before, minimum is probably 30-40 shells or upwards to 60-70 if you wanna be "safe". Load up first batch at home before the game. Reload as necessary inbetween games. Also, getting the 88g CO2 capsules is a good investment along with the adapter, as the double CO2 loader is pretty crappy. Unfortunately my order of 88g CO2 capsules got lost and I ended up getting a refund. Will try to order from somewhere else. I was actually suprised at how playable it was from all aspects. Sure I had some jams, and a few duds, but in comparison I had a lot more fun and got more kills with the CAM870 during my indoor pistols and shotguns only game vs. yesterday in a normal game with my M4. Site was limited to semi-only though. Shorty config is super manuverable as well. So yeah. I am considering bringing the shotgun rather than my M4 for the next normal game. But bottom line is it won't be anywhere near as "cheap", reliable nor convinient as compared to say a TM 3-6 shot shotgun. Edited October 27, 2014 by NonEx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 That for me just sounds like it is tipping the fun / useable scales too much. I am a huge fan of playing with something different. Hell if I get the Breacher I am so playing woodland with it one day but this to me feels a bit too much in the realism over function stakes. Saying that it can also depend on the site. I find many sites in the UK that are indoors like to get you out of the game zone / to the next game point ASAP once the game is over, that means a lap to pick up wads wouldn't work as well. For me I think based on limitations it would be best to stick to gas pistols and TM shotguns. Still good to see someone getting a good use out of one of these. 'FireKnife' 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Yeah, the APS, or any shell ejecting airsoft is obviously not for everyone. It's a special kind of category and you need to know what you are getting yourself into if you are thinking about playing games with them, that's for sure. But for me, it worked out better than expected and well worth it. Glad I can use it for more than just sitting in a corner or the occasional plinking session Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BioRage Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 I've been debating on the subject. Infront of me I have the AG Stock adapter, that I was going to toss on my breacher. However, I feel running the breacher stock and carrying 2 or so breacher mags in a taco that I could run the APS as a primary, and have it strapped on my back. MWAHAHAHa. Unrealistic as that sounds. I'm afraid the AG stock adapter won't last me too long compared to the normal breacher magazines. On a side note, was looking into bulk purchasing APS Shells, Looking about $700-900 ish for a 80 shells with some O-rings and cap replacements and wads. 8 shells for $70 USD. Time to save :L Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Yeh. Dat shell price Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brigg Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Ive had better results at my field using wadded up wet paper towels rather then wads, as it increases the spread at short distances, and doesn't require wad retrieval. so there's always that option as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Ive had better results at my field using wadded up wet paper towels rather then wads, as it increases the spread at short distances, and doesn't require wad retrieval. so there's always that option as well. Yo Brigg I answered your o-ring question on the last page in case you missed it since we just rolled over to a new page. Sounds like that could work as well to make it more disposable. I've seen it in Chinature's videos on YouTube. I'd rather use waddings when possible though for optimal performance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brigg Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 There was also the question at my field of the wadding making the gun fire over the field FPS limit (It likely is, all things considered). Since its more or less impossible to chrono something like that, we just had to go by people complaining that it hurt too much. Rather then try to argue it I just figured hell, use the paper towels and no one will complain. And so far no one has. Though its still great seeing people literally jump out of the way when they see the APS pointed at them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Yeah no idea how to chrono this thing. But APS specifices 280 FPS with 0.2g BBs, which I think is about right actually. I assume that is per BB with a load of 12 BBs. Which would be 0.72 joule per BB. So a total of 8.64 Joules for a full load of 12 EDIT: APS website specs; Velocity: 280 FPS @ 0.2g BB x 12 (Shower Mode) Of course that's gonna hurt. Then again it's almost equal to a decently sized spray from an AEG in full auto hitting a small area on you. But yeah, I was questioning the power of it when I shot people too but I think it's more how it's delievered I guess. I actually had my friend shoot my pre-game just so I could see how it felt. I got shot in the vest and in the leg, and sure, it stung a bit. Bit like I said a 5-10 burst from an AEG at 328 FPS/ 1 Joule each should be about the same. But from the APS they kinda hit all at the same time and in a rather small area so... Edited October 27, 2014 by NonEx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BioRage Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Heh. This is why I love shotguns. 3 shots with my springer bravo make people fear.. I only imagine when I get the 6 shot breacher.. And the 10-12 APS hopefully this week. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 As for the APS is it still rather expensive to run in general? I have noticed that the cost of shells, wads and the rest of it still seems to really limit this gun not just in terms of it being a shell ejector but also in reloading the thing. For me I like fun that isn't expensive or too impractical and I just feel this falls out of that category if it is still as expensive to work as it seemed in the news thread . Maybe wait for the PPS shotgun to come out and see which one runs cheaper? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 I have a feeling I will stick to the Breacher, easier to run in the places I play plus I don't really trust the average airsofter to not makign something of the fact I am using a scattergun powered by CO2, even if it is low 200fps if possible. TM tri-shot for me but I am sure if ever 3-gun airsoft or PSG airsoft was more popular I might try it. Still trying to sort the idea of doing pistol competitions round here and that is tough enough as most of it is general interest but nothing solid. 'FireKnife' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) Hurr durr. I am thinking about the power / Joule on this thing. What if you loaded it with 0.12g BBs and maybe just 5-6 BBs. The thought is that once the BBs leave the barrel and the power push of the wadding dissappears (wadding is what pushes the BBs, this drops/dissapears after 2-3 feet at most), they will slow down from air resistance quicker, and less BBs means less impact/joule per shot ? I mean, this doesn't compute like a normal airsoft gun where the inner BB pushes them the same. Right? It's like say, throwing 5 small rocks vs. 5 feathers. Even if the initial throwing force is the same the feathers would slow down quicker due to the air resistance affecting them more due to lower mass? If you get what I mean? Could that work? Edited October 27, 2014 by NonEx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 It could but you have missed out one key fact. The weight of a .12g means they can shatter a lot, lot easier and that is not good for the likes of mesh users. In fact many are made from such poor material that sites ban them in case of shatter. While it is a sound enough idea it might be dangerous. Also another thing, the lighter weight can lead to less felt hits. It is all well and good when you get a good 5 pellets hit on someone but if one or two clip a plate carrier or pouch at speed they are probably not even going to be noticed. 'FireKnife' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aznriptide859 Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 NonEx, how do you do maintenance on the shells? I loaded all my shells day before the game - when the game came, almost half the shells didn't fire or were light-striking the gas (I assume the shells leaked out the CO2). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) OK thanks for the info on the 0.12g BBs idea. I used 0.25 when I played, and 10 of those, so maybe going down to 0.2g and using maximum of 6-8 could be a decent compromise. As for shell maintenance and loading, I wouldn't recommend loading the day before. If possible just before you leave to the game site so you don't have to do it on site. I just use Kyosho R/C shock absorber silicone oil, the one labeled 200 or 350 (viscosity). Then I dab it onto the external o-ring and spread out. Then I push the firing pin plunger in to the valve body, put a drop on the bottom end, push it out towards the top, put a drop on there as well and work the valve stem a few times back and forth just to get lube in there. I haven't had mine for long so maybe they are not worn yet but that's all I can think of that you can do to maintain them. Other than that you need to get new o-rings and replace regularly. CO2 and the pressure are an o-ring killer for sure so I will see if I can find the suitable internal o-rings and bulk buy those for when I need it. So far I felt like the ones that I loaded that didn't leak right away were fine. I have lubed my shells every time after use (twice now). I think it's critical that the o-rings don't dry out or are exposed to prolonged pressure of CO2 inside the shell chambers if you want them to last. Just to check, have you verified outside of that loading scenario that all shells are fine and can be loaded with full load of CO2? I ask because I had the same experience my first time with the shotgun and the shells but I just loaded them like 30 minutes before I used it. So it could possibly be your loading "technique"? What I do is this; Before doing anything, depress firing pin plunger/valve all the way in on all shells! This is to make sure they are really emtpy and ready to be loaded! Insert first CO2 capsule in tube. Insert spacer, like 2-3mm thick, a coin, tape or a washer or whatever. Insert second CO2 capsule. Make sure you close the opening valve on the top part of the loading tool before punching the CO2 capsules! Unscrew the top half of the punch tool of the CO2 loading tube cap (important!) Screw in the tube cap. Tighten down the top part of the tube cap to puncture CO2 capsules (hopefully both). Insert shell into loader. Push shell down all the way so pin comes up at the top. Clamp down with the pin thingy at the top, tight, but not super tight. Make sure this is centered! This is a trick I learned to make the shells load and seal better; Spin the shell around 2-3 rotations when it's seated. This will even out the seal against the shell body and give you better CO2 loading. If a shell leaks a bit when loading, spin the shell around some more, when leak stops, close valve, then open valve again on loader and it should at least be decently loaded". Open CO2 valve for 2-3 seconds. Close CO2 valve. Push shell up towards top of loader. You will hear it "snap" into place from CO2 pressure. If it goes "pop", "pffft" or "boom" then it will be a dud. Push pin in to release remaining CO2 and reload. Unscrew top clamping device. To remove the shell, rotate it around the shell holder and gently move it upwards. Done. That's how I found it worked out best for me. Edited October 27, 2014 by NonEx 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 To chrono a shotgun it would be advisable to use methods for real shotguns. Use an F1 Chrony or similar kinds with tall/wide light gates and plenty of natural light. Shoot from a few feet away as the gas blast can affect readings (my Serbu once read 1500fps at the muzzle) and allows the wadding to separate a bit from the actual shot load. Use multiple readings, not just one or two to get a proper statistical analysis. I've read of a method using two chronos one after the other to rule out erroneous readings so maybe borrow one from a mate. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Yeah that's not gonna happen I'll take APS's word hehe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jkpics Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 There are quality 0.12g bb's out there, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NonEx Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Such as? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 There are quality 0.12g bb's out there, I find that quality or not the less dense material can either lead to people not feeling glancing hits (if they are caught by the edge of the spray) or still have the potential to shatter more so than a .2 or .25. However it would be good to see it tested and see how it works. The comments I have made about .12s are from a variety including some of the better ones that still had issues. 'FireKnife' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stuey Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well not feeling hits isn't an issue when the gun is putting out ~9 J, getting less energy was the whole point behind the idea. Quality wise it depends which ones you buy. TM make .12g BBs, (link), these SMK ones are also probably fine, especially for a shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) How about filling with a regulator attached? Dial down PSI to something nearer very hot propane. Also, failing to use an actual chrono to measure output, you can always shoot at stuff and compare the damage/penetration against a control. Edited October 31, 2014 by renegadecow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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