Staying in the Game

[Cannonfodder80]

When me and the better half bought our flat rent one of the first things we did was to agree which cuboard would be set aside for my guns and kit

[Tw1tch]

There's a chap who plays at Blue Streak with a heavily modded Barrett 50. firing at something like 750fps if I remember correctly. Basically the owners of the site (also the guys who did the mod iirc) said he can use it with appropriate MED and under the conditions he's not a spanner with it. I think it might also have a circuit timer built in to prevent rapid follow ups.

 

They know and trust the guy not to abuse the system which I feel is fair enough.

 

Don't quote me on the actual FPS. Just remember talking to Billy about it when we went there to pick some stuff up.

[scorch]

Why would you need 750fps?

 

Either to cause pain, in which case you're a prize *Ubar*, or because you want to outrange everyone, in which case the site operators shouldn't be allowing one player an advantage over the others which is clearly outside the published rule set.

[Im going space]

the site limit for bolties is 550, so i suspect it is actually at that, despite being an AEG is allowed to use it with bolt rules.

[Tw1tch]

Why would you need 750fps?

 

Either to cause pain, in which case you're a prize *Ubar*, or because you want to outrange everyone, in which case the site operators shouldn't be allowing one player an advantage over the others which is clearly outside the published rule set.

Suspension of disbelief? It's a 50. Cal and therefore it feels lame if its stuck to 450 or whatever? I know in some countries FPS limits are determined by calibre etc of the real world equivalent. I'm sure if others wanted to play with more significant fps and they could be trusted to adhere to the additional rules it'd be fine. They seem quite accomodating, when I asked them about using TAG shells at their site it was a case of "would you mind being shot with one?". I think they'd also demand that I would be shot with one before being used in game.

 

Then again a Barrett isn't really for taking people out with either...

[scorch]

Suspension of disbelief? It's a 50. Cal and therefore it feels lame if its stuck to 450 or whatever?

 

 

Perhaps the best solution is that certain players shouldn't waste their money on ridiculous penis extension cannons, rather than giving them an unfair advantage just because they feel disappointed with the gun under the set rules and they're the marshal's BFF.

[Tw1tch]

Are TAG shells also unfair because the range they offer over hand thrown devices?

 

Its about trust, you can't trust someone you don't know, maybe you could trust them not to be a plonker with something potentially dangerous but if it goes wrong its too late to deal with. Having the rifle so high has its downsides too, get within that MED and its just a heavy chunk of metal that he's got to discard in order to deal with you.

 

I'm ill equipped to debate this really as it was a conversation I had a long time ago and can't quite remember the specifics. But the guys at Badgertac are supposedly top notch.

[Skarclaw]

Are TAG shells also unfair because the range they offer over hand thrown devices?

 

 

The bigger issue is that TAG shells are most likely illegal. No one, but no-one has been able to explain where they fit in the legal framework.

[scorch]

Are TAG shells also unfair because the range they offer over hand thrown devices?

 

Not really. If they're allowed in the rules, then the only thing stopping you having them is the cost. The issue is a player being allowed something that falls clearly outside the rules dictating what is allowed to other players.

 

 But the guys at Badgertac are supposedly top notch.

 

Played there a few times. Lunch is excellent, indoor safe zone is always appreciated, and the site is a good mix. While I had a great day on both occasions, the last time was a bit of a turn off as I had someone steal my BFG reloading tool, and one of the head marshals had a *badgeress* fit and threatened to give people a kicking.

[T3CH]

There's a chap who plays at Blue Streak with a heavily modded Barrett 50. firing at something like 750fps 

 

 

 

That's a nice SECTION ONE FIREARM hes got there.

 

That ###### is going to really hurt someone, irrespective of whether he 'abuses the system' or not. Whats his MED, 50m?

[Skarclaw]

That's a nice SECTION ONE FIREARM hes got there.

 

That ###### is going to really hurt someone, irrespective of whether he 'abuses the system' or not. Whats his MED, 50m?

 

Depends what you mean by "really hurt" I guess. Personally I don't think it would.

 

I'm no good at physics or maths so feel free to rip apart the following but;

 

 

Working on the basis of a gun shooting 700fps/.2/4.55j  a .3 pellet will be going at about 260fps at 100ft/30m (common sniper rifle MED) - so .94j.

 

Even with the extra 50fps I reckon I'd feel more "pain"  getting shot multiple times at close range at around 1j. That's not factoring in knuckle shots or when you are crouching and your trousers get tight around your thigh 

[paranoiddroid]

How is 750 fps with a .2 a sec 1 firearm....? I really doubt it is at 12/ft lb and if it is semi.auto.led then the fact it's over the acpo's vague advisory in that report won't apply.

 

As for the slap fights and demands for a legal limit.... no just no as it will kill sites by demanding stupid money manda tory x brand chrono purchases and cause *rickroller* anti gun politicians and vocal anti rights groups to *fruitcage* us over.

 

Plus give a chance for people who love that 'I am massively important and can *fruitcage* your life up' ego trip annother way to make.people's lives hellishly difficult.

 

Imagine if you get pulled over by that one guy who joined for the power that one guy who just wants to find something anything to prove he is a better person because of his power, on your way to/from a skirmish. Imagine he had the ability to *fruitcage* you over by taking your guns to be tested and a new law gave him incentive to really do so.

 

Imagine if the 'train guard' who posted on zeroin that it was in the railway bylaw all rifs must be handed overto the guard on a train trip and that he would demand that anyone he saw travelling with airsoft kit hand over their bag or be arrested/or ordered off the train had the power to have you lose your gat for testing.

 

Imagine if parcel farce could have stuff you ship into the UK forcibly for a 'reasonable' fee tested and bill you for it or withhold your package until you paid them to do so.

 

Or that one marshal/site owner who has for whatever reason decided he/she doesn't like you, because of who you play wih/what othwr sites you go to or whatever.

 

He/she/it accuses you of having a hot gun and has your address from the waiver... boom you have a F.A.R.T smashing your backdoors in at three a.m all because they ddidn't Like that you 'overshot' their mate or called out a site regular for cheating.

 

The police turning up.to do random spot checks on site to catch people when some political officer needs good p.r for the rozzers, it's warm you have a gas gun that records 5 fps over because it's been left in the sun on a safe zone table and suddenly there's Pics all over the papers of you being dragged into a black maria in handcuffs with the headline 'Illegal firearm confiscated from military style training camp'

 

There is so so much that could go wrong and *fruitcage* all to gain from it. ALL it would do is draw attention to how much we still actually are allowed to have including things like moscarts and tag shells which could easily be banned by creative legal interpretation.

[Apex]

Going back to the original question Chris raised.

I started in around 2003/2004 with First & Only site at Matlock. Was out every weekend both days, i was knackard but i loved it. This continued up unitl i got a job that required me to work shifts / weekends and slowly bit by bit i played less and less till the point that i was out for over 18 months.

In this time i put on a lot of weight which i have never really shifted to this day, suffered a few injurys that flair up now and then and just lost the love for the sport. It didn't help that the few open days i did attend ended up with a bunch of us leaving early due to the action of players / site owners, this left a bad impression and soured my view of the sport.

Fast forward to the end of 2007 start of 2008, i am in a new job and while fitness hasn't improved i have the hunger to play again but due to being out for so long i have lost contact with some of the regs. I end up going to MA 6 and sudenly the love i have for the game is back. I see a different side to the sport the side that reminds me why i got into it in the first place.  Still not attending open days much due to loss of contacts but private invite events i do go to.

2010 - 2013

I move jobs at the company i am at and i am again on shift work / weekend work - have to now plan which events i might go to (MA is still the unbeaten) and slowly bit by the love and drive to attend skirmishes ebbs away again.
It doesn't help that thoese around me take a dim view of the hobby and are not afraid to take pot shots and while i know this shouldnt get to me it does.
When you are surounded by negitive thoughts it imprints on you, drags you down and just generally spoils the enjoyment in life.

2014 - Due to work and not having a ballance in life i don't attend one invite game / skirmish at all - sad panda but such is life - poor fitness and health aren't helping.

2015 - Only one event planed and that is The Night Before Arnies social event in July - would like to get to a few more before then.

In all the time i have been in this sport i have never felt 'sorted' kit wise, It has always been more 'organised chaos'.

Main issues i have these days is the poor health and fitness i have. I can make the time, i have the money and i have transport but when you geting tired after 45mins on the road driving you don't feel in a fit state to run round a field / building.

[Guest]

Visited arnie's today for the first time in a long time. I actually stopped playing airsoft because my wife and I moved an additional hour further from my group's usual stomping grounds. She wanted to go to grad school after working for awhile and I followed suit after she was done. We are now in our early thirties with a toddler, new baby, and relatively new post-grad school jobs. Airsoft was fun, but sometimes I felt I spent more time shopping, fixing the AEGs, or standing around waiting for games to start. Once life got really busy and I nixed the more time consuming hobbies. I stick with family, board games, spending time with friends, and video games now. Obviously since I'm back on this forum I still have an interest in some aspect of airsoft, but I'm not sure its the actual game at this point anymore. Maybe it's just the hardware and the "idea" of having fun out in the field with friends.

[Azubi]

Massive rant about a legal limit for airsoft.

How is it any different than the current 'leathality' for full auto making it a section 5 firearm? AEGs can already fall foul of this, and all that you fear could still happen today under existing laws.

 

But it doesn't happen, and if it does, it's incredibly rare. You are living up to your namesake and being paranoid. Why do you suddenly feel a national site limit would change anything from what already exists? You can already have them seized and tested by the police if they feel the need to.

 

Or am I missing something?

[cazboab]

A uk wide upper limit has me in two minds, the first(currently slightly larger) part says It won't do anything, and if its set sensibly and backed by scientific data it would be a good thing and protect people from .

 

However there's a little part of me holding a box of tea over the metaphorical harbour screaming about how we've had freedoms taken away too often recently here, and that we should resist anything on principle unless we're getting something back.

[JCheeseright]

That's a nice SECTION ONE FIREARM hes got there.

 

That ###### is going to really hurt someone, irrespective of whether he 'abuses the system' or not. Whats his MED, 50m?

 

erm, I think you need to go back and have a look at what makes a gun section 1.... a 750fps airsoft gun doesn't even come close; 750fps with a .20g BB is just over 5 joules.  12ft/lbs is the threshold for an air weapon to be a section 1 firearm, 12ft/lbs = 16J. 

[TheFull9]

I think some people have steered this thread a tad off the topic line.

 

I think the subjects of RIFs that fall outside the usual parameters and the issue of muzzle energy in airsoft and the laws thereof are threads in and of themselves.

[jal3]

Depends what you mean by "really hurt" I guess. Personally I don't think it would.

 

I'm no good at physics or maths so feel free to rip apart the following but;

 

 

Working on the basis of a gun shooting 700fps/.2/4.55j  a .3 pellet will be going at about 260fps at 100ft/30m (common sniper rifle MED) - so .94j.

 

Even with the extra 50fps I reckon I'd feel more "pain"  getting shot multiple times at close range at around 1j. That's not factoring in knuckle shots or when you are crouching and your trousers get tight around your thigh 

 

 

I was just about to post something like this!

 

Air drag is a funny thing.

 

Assuming that you want an impact energy of 1,3J, as corresponding to 0m with normal UK AEG's, the safety distances are as follows:

0,20: 20,5 Meters

0,30: 30,5 Meters

0,40: 41 Meters

[paranoiddroid]

How is it any different than the current 'leathality' for full auto making it a section 5 firearm? AEGs can already fall foul of this, and all that you fear could still happen today under existing laws.

 

But it doesn't happen, and if it does, it's incredibly rare. You are living up to your namesake and being paranoid. Why do you suddenly feel a national site limit would change anything from what already exists? You can already have them seized and tested by the police if they feel the need to.

 

Or am I missing something?

Because this hobby uses something that could be considered socially unpopular (firearms, albeit replicas) we hang on to our defence due to an interpretation of the law by the home office which we could lose without the law being changed and I quite frankly don't like the idea of bringing the sport back into the eye of government to set some hardline legal limit as that if a goverment for what ever reason needs the positive pr could end uo in them sticking the boot in as noone who are in the grand scheme of things important or well connected will care and a flat ban or a sufficently onerous law regarding the power would make a really pretty headline in the papers to show people their government is protecting them.

 

Airsoft being in its little bubble as a niche hobby I think is one of the big things that will protect it and asking for a legal limit is to my mind akin to poking a bear with a stick.

 

As well as the fact that as a general rule I object to malum prohibitum law.

 

 

As for staying in the game I can see the current legal barriers being onerous enough that they could discourage new players from entering the sport as well as players returning after a break.

[Azubi]

Airsoft is more popular than it ever was before the VCRA. You only have to look at the number of sites that have popped over the last 5-6 years to see that.

[paranoiddroid]

I know a few old players who sold kit for whatever reason and haven't bothered sorting getting to games partly because of the pain in the *albartroth* that is re establishing a defence.

 

Similarly few mates of mine go only rarely because of the three games etc etc etc because of the mixture of being bound to a site to get the three and stamped form and local sites charging for the privilege of having their stamp on the form.

 

Because of that they have what I would consider to be a defence (proof that hey are regularly engaged in the act of skirmishing at sites with pli) but struggle finding a retail or that will accept it.

 

The hobby is bigger more popular but it is less visible to the government and the guns are bad and any sort of playing with guns or gun like objects is evil thankfully.

[Azubi]

Less visible? How is it less visible?

[paranoiddroid]

Ok at the time the previous government was writing the early drafts of the VCRA one of the cheap and easy thinge to bam from their point of view was those items which are now labeled as R.I.F's.

 

What was originally a quick and easy ban to score points with suzi soccermom and take those evil scary replica's and cheap 'samuri swords' away from gangbangers and youths who smoke the evil weed and leave pot needles everywhere ended up with the government being challenged by people lobbying for their own little fiefdoms to be protected and screw everyone else.

 

So airsofters and reenactors groups lobbied and pushed and the bill was altered a little bit. Then retailers got invole and we now have things like the home orifice notes on what exactly our defense from prosecution requires.

 

Ok so that period of vocal discussion between government and the governed happened between roughly 2004 and 2006 and people like Hazel Blears had airsoft explained to them.

 

It's been 9 years since airsoft has been mentioned at Whitehall. 9 years since it has been mentioned in champers with the speaker of the house conducting a debate on the issue.

 

In general politicians unless they are connected to or funded by organisations/ political action commitees, lobbying organisations or other single issue activist groups don't and won't pay attention to an issue once the law has been passed UNLESS something happens to bring their attention back on that issue.

 

And the longer that westminster is focusing on other issues and isn't having its attention drawn back to airsoft by lobbying groups from either side. The longer we can keep just going on as we are with no dramatic changes or further reductions in rights and access to the hobby.

 

Unless something dramatic happens to bring the hobby into the public eye like a high profile shooting or a very visible buzzword fueled article on how awful the hobby is. Most politicians won't even notice it and out of sight is out of mind.

 

However pushing for legal change for us either by writing 'helpful' letters to the home office with 'suggestions' or requesting clarification/legislation on a national power limit.

 

What will happen is those politicians who are connected to of beholden to lobbying groups who would oppose airsoft on the ground s of its link to firearms, (MAG,MDA etc etc) will use the fact that it's now a visible issue to push for things like restrictions and bans promising the average mp without an interest in this issue that a vote for heir restriction will benefit their image, gain support from the lobbying groups support base or funding for re-election campaigns.

 

The longer that airsoft avoids being a hot topic in government the longer we keep what we have.

 

The only reason cali now has their new mandated bright colour law is one very vocal senator with an axe to grind who kept airsoft in the legislative eye and used the corpses of children to keep his bill a hot topic for debate.

 

Well that and the fact that the paintball industry in California threw him thousands in support and funding in exchange for protection from the bills he proposed. In the same vein if airsoft becomes visible in th e press and in the government I can see other portions of the shooting sports throwing airsoft under the bus as a bone to the anti crowd in order to protect their niche.

 

I am probably too cynical but I can't see any situation where the government opening another dialog on airsoft having any benefit to us. I could see it at best being an Ireland style power limit and at worst a total ban but I can't think of any sort of positives that we could gain.

[Azubi]

Fair point, from the point of view of not wanting to poke the hornets nest, I can see where you are coming from.

 

However, I personally don't believe we balance on such a knife edge.