Gud Ole Americans

[Crazy_Harry]

ah, falling for the age old ruse that made BK and the filth that is Mcdonalds reach a level of domination in the food market that frankly, given the quality of food they offer, merely illustrates the point raised by so many already- that the world is full of idiots, its not nation-dependent (blimey, the UKs most-read newspaper is the bloody Sun, for smegs sake, its news designed for foul-mouthed, sexist reactionary toddlers...)

 

the old "pile it full of fat and salt and sugar, they'll beat the door down, the poor dumb auto-malnourished schmucks..." ruse.

 

works every time. In fact with everything. Keep it simple, and keep pretending to the people buying the BS that its not the worst thing you could do to yourself in the world short of chainsawing your legs off in a hot bath full of sleeping piranas, and the worst thing you could do to both the globalising economy and the environment other than rounding up all the local independent farmers on the planet, skinning them alive and leaving their rotting corpses in the nearest well to spread disease and pestilence into the water table.

 

And they will continue to buy what you sell. People love it when someone else tells them that how the world IS is precisely the world they want it to be, even if this flies in the face of all known facts- basic rule of politics and salesmenship legitimise self-delusionment.

 

oh, and anti-anywhere comments can stay out of this discussion ok? As I said numerous pages ago, every nation is weird to those who look in on it, and you could, if you wanted to be mean-minded, construe this weirdness to be stupidity.

 

We are all, however, pawns in the hands of our own history. and we are guided not by self-determination, or by our country, but by the inter-weaving and inter-connected nature of our times. Every president and prime minister the world has ever known has come to power because the time demanded it. Whether thats good or bad is frankly irrelevant.

 

Bush and Blair are both in power because that is what the respective systems have allowed to happen (ahaha, 37% of voters...jesus tony, now THAT'S a mandate to RULE!), and they also reflect what must happen to a nation as is determined by history.

 

The US and, by extension, the UK are going through one hell of a bad patch at the mo, a bad patch that has nothing to do, ultimately, with Terrorism or this childish pre-occupation between Neo-Conservatism versus Liberalism, but everything to do with the continuation of American Moral Legitimacy as world leader. I can see why alot of people take refuge in triumphalistic Nationalist Conservatism- its a perfectly natural reaction to the current international situation- all major powers and their hangers-on in history have done it. Nothing more could have been expected, if you think about it.

 

Doesn't help anything, other than speed the process up to its messy conclusion...

[Magnus]

This post has turned into something rather humorous. I mean both nations generalize about each other, we always have and we always will. Thats not going to change.

 

All I'll say is that America's arrogance that they are the Greatest Nation could end up being their downfall.

 

You didn't see 911 coming (Not intended to cause offence)

 

Whats Next?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vega, normally I'd let such an offensive comment slide but unlike some forum users here you're old enough to know better. By the same line of thought July 7th is an indication of weakness in the UK.

 

The very nature of terrorism is that it's viscious, dishonorable, and unexpected. Like I already said above, these conversations are uneeded, are hurtful to the cohesion of the sport, and they make some of us feel extremely unwelcome.

 

Have some f-ing class and show us dumb redneck Yanks what manners are like. I see as much judging, intolerance, and generalizations as I'd see on any US airsoft board.

 

"Quality" my red, white, and blue *albatross*!

[Crazy_Harry]

hey man, if you don't love us, leave us.

 

joke, of course

 

ok, look- obviously people are a bit emotional about terrorism, so lets lay off that subject unless its relevant to the debate.

 

Failing to see a bunch of guys planning to fly planes into densely populated buildings in a moment of audacious lunacy is hardly reason to suppose the country it happened to is in anyway failing in the intelligence stakes.

 

Thats like blaming the people of My Lai for not seeing Charlie Company bearing down on them from miles aways, and failing to run away accordingly.

[Ubar]

Vega, normally I'd let such an offensive comment slide but unlike some forum users here you're old enough to know better.  By the same line of thought July 7th is an indication of weakness in the UK.

 

The very nature of terrorism is that it's viscious, dishonorable, and unexpected.  Like I already said above, these conversations are uneeded, are hurtful to the cohesion of the sport, and they make some of us feel extremely unwelcome. 

 

Have some f-ing class and show us dumb redneck Yanks what manners are like.   I see as much judging, intolerance, and generalizations as I'd see on any US airsoft board.

 

"Quality" my red, white, and blue *albatross*!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's not the attack that shows weakness in you, it's the reaction

[Longhairedhippy]

all this talk of sandwiches has made me hungry. I may or may not have a more refined opinion after a good snack.

[Magnus]

Thats like blaming the people of My Lai for not seeing Charlie Company bearing down on them from miles aways, and failing to run away accordingly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow, you diffuse the subject of terrorism by using an example from Vietnam.

 

Way to moderate, jackass!

[Crazy_Harry]

hmm, and there was me bothering to defend your position and everything. I think you might want to spend a little less time with your head up your own *albartroth*, and more time learning some restraint.

 

in fact, you know what, all your posts in the last few days have been openly antagonistic, irrespective of who or what you are replying to.

 

you've been looking for a fight for a while, ain't ya, mate?

 

Tell you what, consider me to be your huckleberry- I'll take first shot, if thats ok?

 

Posting ability disabled, pending permanent ban

 

Hey, I warned you all it was best behaviour time now that Rhino's gone.

 

Guess what? I wasn't joking.

[Foxtrot]

Guess what? I wasn't joking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

whoo hoo a serious moderator.

 

Not even going to bother with the childish remarks about the US and the UK. It's already been said before, and we're just in hidesight now about terrorism.

 

Look about 5, 10 years ago. If someone told you some poopies where going to crash a 737 into the trade centers, would you beleive them? - I know I wouldn't. I remember watching the second building get hit and thinking to my self - Is this real?

[Crazy_Harry]

precisely- it was murderous lunacy of the highest order which was, at the time, frankly unbelieveable.

 

hence, for anyone wanting to go tag-team with magnus right now, my using the My Lai massacre as an example. Nobody believed even the evidence of their own eyes until they suddenly realised there was no way it COULDN'T be true.

 

ok, at this point, I want everyone to bear something very important in mind.

 

The criticism of isolated events in a nations history is NOT to codemn that nation in its entirety.

 

for all the narrow-minded little *words-fail-me*s out there who think ANY comment that doesn't one hundred percent paint their point of view in the rosiest way possible is an insult tantamount to the declaration of world war three, please remember I, and every other mod on arnies, will kick you punk *albatross* clean off here without a moments hesitation.

 

there you go, everyone's warned, no-one has an excuse. Back to the topic in hand...

[HaVoC]

Woah Harry, isn't banning him going too far?

 

I can see that maybe his comments were a tad...y'know...and that he lost it there, but at least he can put forward an argument in a reasonable way.

 

Just because he called you a 'dumbass' isn't really any reason to ban him - there are worse people on this forum who only receive tem-bans for far worse things.

[Hissing_Sid]

Personally, I don't see why so many people have to be hypocritical OR ignorant about the recent invasions etc.

 

There are hypocrites who go around telling everybody that they never supported the war etc...blah, blah, blah.

 

There are ignorant people who continue to believe that all the current military action is justified.

 

Why can't people be honest and admit that they simply thought that, at the time, the wars were justified but, with hindsight, they realise that they may have done more harm than good?

 

The problem is that the hypocrites enjoy antagonizing the ignoramuses by telling them how wrong the wars are. The ignoramuses are too hard-headed to admit that, all jingoistic patriotism aside, it's not all going according to plan.

 

The big problem in the USA is that they still fear the shadow of vietnam. Every time that the USA has fought a war in the last 20 years somebody will say "This has laid to rest the ghost of vietnam".

Unfortunately, despite the best equipment in the world and training and morale which is light-years away from what it was during vietnam the current problems in the middle east show every sign of developing into another vietnam on a worldwide scale.

A lot of Americans don't seem to be able to admit this.

 

My own, personal, opinion (just so you know) is probably very similar to most peoples - On September 12th 2001 I was all for bombing the ###### out of the "ay-rabs".

The subsequent invasion of Afghanistan probably did a lot to destabilise terrorist activities but I reckon I've been conned into thinking Saddam was linked to this in any way. He was a nasty piece of work and we were probably doing Iraq a favour by removing him but we failed to foresee how much political mileage the terrorists would get out of the Iraq invasion.

 

The resulting propoganda, based on the Iraq war, has probably done enough to negate any good done in Afghaniston.

 

 

 

 

Now, what was my point again?

[HaVoC]

There are ignorant people who continue to believe that all the current military action is justified.

Gee, thanks for that - I really appreciate being called 'ignorant' for having views different to yours...

 

My own, personal, opinion (just so you know) is probably very similar to most peoples - On September 12th 2001 I was all for bombing the ###### out of the "ay-rabs".

The subsequent invasion of Afghanistan probably did a lot to destabilise terrorist activities but I reckon I've been conned into thinking Saddam was linked to this in any way. He was a nasty piece of work and we were probably doing Iraq a favour by removing him but we failed to foresee how much political mileage the terrorists would get out of the Iraq invasion.

 

The resulting propoganda, based on the Iraq war, has probably done enough to negate any good done in Afghaniston.

I agree that Iraq has almost-certainly increased terrorism, but I think there are other reasons too - the terrorists just have something they can now use to attempt to justify their actions, and many of them would have done it anyway.

 

We removed Hitler from power in 1945, but there are still neo-Nazis around causing trouble, nearly 60 years later. I think this is the same, but in this case, it's people who worship and believe in a larger range of ideals, thus there are more of them, and also it's far less than 60 years since we invaded Iraq.

[duckares]

Mmmm... How about those Grey Squirrels & Red Squirrels???

[Crazy_Harry]

Havoc- the ban is a result of his comments stretching back over the last few days- he's been looking for a fight for a while now because he can't handle people criticisng even remotely his beloved point of view.

 

At this time, given the lack of staff, I ain't letting some guy like that run around these boards.

 

Sure, it might be interpreted as being a bit unfair, but no-one ever said life was fair, did they?

 

I'll put up with a few stupid, ill-thought out comments until it gets personal, then its zero-tolerance time. Sorry you disagree.

 

And as to the point on Hitler- again, asI've mentioned elsewhere, the removal of Hitler from power came at a time when his policies had been proved to be a failure to the germans who supported him, and when the Allies were able to claim a total moral and military victory over Nazism.

 

As such, they had the legitimacy to install a new regime, something they sorely lack in Iraq.

 

As also mentioned, I think what we are looking at in Iraq is NOT comparable with post-1945 Germany, but closer to the period of the Weimar Republic- not accepted as legitimate, imposed by what was considered a bunch of degenerates in France, Britain and Germany, that impoverished the German people and planted the seeds for an uprising of nationalistic conservatism and violent elitism. All the problems of the day were readily blamed on the government and those who were seen as not truly "german", resulting in an episode in world history that is staggering in its horror.

 

I would be highly surprised, given the situation, if something similar isn't already under way in Iraq. The various terror groups that a popping up are just like the various violent political groups of Germany- they believe they are fighting for their nation (an authoritarian "return it to the good old days through rivers of blood sort of nationalism), rather than for some global Jihad, though I don't doubt that Al Queda's Jihad is believed to be an important part of the journey, as Fascism was an important part of the journey for Nazism.

 

I tell you what, the main danger for Iraq ISN'T the insurgency, or even external Islamic groups coming in- its to do with how the people perceive the legitimacy of the government when a reasonably powerful nationalist starts running for government. At the moment, that legitimacy is rock bottom, given its perceived inability to function or implement any sort of programme that will benefit the Iraqi people.

 

Remember, its about perceptions. Not yours, or mine, or Bushes or bloody micheal moores, but about the Iraqi's themselves. At the moment, the government is proving to be next to useless and crippled in the face of these terror attacks.

 

What happens when some guy turns up in time for the next elections with a nationalistic agenda and the promise of not only espelling ALL foreign forces, but also imposing the harshest sentence on those who hurt Iraq?

 

He's going to get in.

 

and lets not start the whole "that'd never be allowed" debate. It was "allowed" in Germany, with Hitler winning support all over Europe for his policies, givne he was seen as the lesser of two evils between Soviet Socialism and Nazism.

 

Again, I wonder what'll happen when some guy comes along claiming Al Queda are the bad guys, along with all foreign fighters, with a program of rebuilding, public works, greater self sufficiency and a return of Iraq to its true place among the seats of the mighty?

 

We're going to LAP it up, as we've done such a great job, as our countrymen did before us with socialism, of convincing ourselves that Islamic Fundamentalism is the real threat here.

 

I reckon we've got trouble with a capital T looming on the horizon. Sod the terrorists, they're a transient problem.

[Sledge]

And what about the Red Sox? Are they in with a chance this year?

 

[snowman]

Forget it.

[PlasticMag]

After having read all of C_H's posts, I must say that not only are you absolutely brilliant in your observations, but that IMO you're also probably 100% correct. I've been thinking the same thing now since we formed a provisional government, and the recent news of American hurrying the constitution through rather than allowing it 6 more months to develop into a strong one only confirmed some of my fears.

[Hissing_Sid]

I tell you what, the main danger for Iraq ISN'T the insurgency, or even external Islamic groups coming in- its to do with how the people perceive the legitimacy of the government when a reasonably powerful nationalist starts running for government. At the moment, that legitimacy is rock bottom, given its perceived inability to function or implement any sort of programme that will benefit the Iraqi people.

 

Remember, its about perceptions. Not yours, or mine, or Bushes or bloody micheal moores, but about the Iraqi's themselves. At the moment, the government is proving to be next to useless and crippled in the face of these terror attacks.

 

What happens when some guy turns up in time for the next elections with a nationalistic agenda and the promise of not only espelling ALL foreign forces, but also imposing the harshest sentence on those who hurt Iraq?

 

He's going to get in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to confirm, the most common complaints from Iraqi's is usually something like "2 years after the war the great American invaders can't even get the water/electric/gas supply back on."

 

It's no coincidence that the subversive elements in Iraq are spending their time cutting electric cables AND carting them off or blowing holes in the sides of water pipes in the desert instead of using guns to shoot at yanks.

 

In 2 years time when some Syrian sponsored Iraqi politician appears and sorts out a city in Iraq (by asking all the syrian terrorists who work for him to stop what they're doing) he'll be claimed as a hero, installed as the new Iraqi president and you've got yourself the newest vassal Syrian state.

 

Oh, and I've been there and seen this for myself.

[Rob15]

Um... I hate America for Burger King. And Subway. BKs fries are just horrible, and Subway is pants. Too many types of bread, and they never seem to do a filling I actually want. Support your independent sandwich shops!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

same

 

But, Subway! It rocks! A footlong meat, fat and salt sandwich with double cheese!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or you could make one your self

 

Philistines! Get to your local independent sandwich shop and get a decent sarnie!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or make one your self

 

Look about 5, 10 years ago. If someone told you some poopies where going to crash a 737 into the trade centers, would you beleive them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i probably would, anything is possible

 

There are ignorant people who continue to believe that all the current military action is justified.

 

Why can't people be honest and admit that they simply thought that, at the time, the wars were justified but, with hindsight, they realise that they may have done more harm than good?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yup, i never supported the war i've always belived it was about oil, and what i've heard backs that theory up even more

infact, i can't wait for oil prices to start going up even more now

[HaVoC]

yup, i never supported the war i've always belived it was about oil, and what i've heard backs that theory up even more

*yawn*

 

What was that about gullible people?

 

infact, i can't wait for oil prices to start going up even more now

Yes, because of a change of Saudi royalty...

[Rob15]

*yawn*

 

What was that about gullible people?

Yes, because of a change of Saudi royalty...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wtf, where'd that big gap come from gullible eh

 

oh, and oil is running out there isn't exactly much left now, and with china increasing its usage every day its going to run out even faster now

 

EDIT : ahhh, the emo wasn't showing up

[Foxtrot]

Appears, Rob, you know nothing about Oil or prices, or how they are decided, right?

 

Excuse me, but this is my field of expertiese. As 4th generation Owner of Lyden Oil Company (www.LydenOilCompany.com)- 4th largest Oil/Fuels/Lubricants in the United states.

 

The War in Iraq Was in NO WAY INCITED BY OIL I'm sorry - but if we wanted oil and for the cost of a war - we would of HEAVILY invested in Russia, or bought east of the Ural Mountains. Considering - the largest Known reserves on earth, rest there. Currently untapped because Russia cannot get supplies/roads/anything into that area. Iraq, the Saudi's, etc. don't have peanuts to whats under the arctic circle. Only reason why the Saudi's supply so much to the world is - they're right by a god damn warm water ocean. This makes transportation of it, easy. To be blunt. You don't have to deal with 8 foot thick ice, -120 degree weather, and inches of ice on everything.

 

Secondly. It seems that only a tiny part of the world knows this. Oil is the only commodity traded on speculation This means, the refiners who refine a barrel of oil - pay the prices that some guy decides that 30 days from that moment - oil will be worth. Oil is traded on a 30+ Day speculation - so, to simplify this out a bit more... You go out and buy a cup of tea. But, today's price of tea, is based on what someone thinks a cup of tea will be worth 30 days from today. So lets say... all the tea plants in the world died - prices would go up, and you would pay 10$ for a cup of tea.

 

So, in context. Oh no, hurricane - american off shores shut down. Oil prices go through the roof... though the supply remains the same - you're just getting screwed by the person who makes up the prices of the oil.

 

And in a third reason why oil prices are going up: Refining Capacity. Right now *all* U.S. Refineries are running at better of 95+% They are at max capacity, and the capacity is going down even more. Broke parts, fires, etc. that cannot be replaced because the USA's GOD forsake EPA wont let them meet the clean air act standards. Which means, when a plant is heavily damaged - total refining capacity drops, Prices go up.

 

The last US Refiniery built - was in 1971. Older then probably alot of members on these forums. And, you can see the kind of technology we're using here.

The new EPA mandated Ultra-low Sulfer diesel fuel - cant even meet specs out of the pipe line, because the lines are so old and the EPA wont let them be replaced. So something is f'd up - and it's the EPA.

 

Any other questions? Ask.

[Rob15]

I'm sorry - but if we wanted oil and for the cost of a war - we would of HEAVILY invested in Russia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that might be a bit hard now, there is a new law in russia that now stops any company which isn't at least 75% russian for getting any of their oil a good move by them i think we shoudl have done the same in the UK long ago but its wayyy to late now

[Foxtrot]

Investing doesn't mean owning.

 

Investing means.. well, lets say Royal Dutch Shell - the worlds #1 supplier of Oil.

 

 

They go to Yuko's - the main russian oil company, and say - Hey, we'll give you 5 billion dollars to go inspect, build roads, and a drilling site at.. this area for us. And another 10 billion to build a pipeline out so that we can ship it away.

 

In turn, Yuko's takes the money, builds the piple like, drill site, etc. And sells their oil to Royal Dutch Shell under an exclusive contract. And Shell, goes out and sells it on the world market, making a huge profit.

 

How do you think all the Middle eastern countries got their start? The same way - Royal Dutch Shell.

 

Who, in 2003, Reported 64 Billion dollars in Profit Yes, thats right - Profit. Even after all their little disasters, investments, etc. etc. Thats how much money they put away IN THE BANK.

 

Beleive me - theres so many loop holes in that law it's rediclous. RDS could easily just make a new company in Russia, have it all russian people - cept the CEO who's dutch, go and drill oil and stuff.

 

This is why - in febuary 2003, the number one supplier of Oil to the united states, became russia.

 

Only problem with that is, All the oil is coming from West of the Ural mountains. Not east. West of the Ural mountains alone is the 6th largest reserves in the world. Something around 60 billion barrels of oil.

[jojo]

Appears, Rob, you know nothing about Oil or prices, or how they are decided, right?

 

Excuse me, but this is my field of expertiese. As 4th generation Owner of Lyden Oil Company (www.LydenOilCompany.com)- 4th largest Oil/Fuels/Lubricants in the United states.

 

The War in Iraq Was in NO WAY INCITED BY OIL  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

youll be saying next that the falklands war had nothing to do with oil, how naive can so many people be.