Knife kills?

[Andrew March]

Got to get me a training knife.

[CharlieQB]

Got to get me a training knife.

 

http://search.ebay.co.uk/rubber-knife_W0QQ...rubberQ20knifes

 

On the subject..... I got a thrown knife kill to the head this Tuesday at the Electrowerkz

25 min Pistol only game, fended off dozens of waves made by the Red team on the ground floor until I finished my fifth and final Glock mag. Muttered "*beep*" to my self as I let the slide release forward and holstered the weapon. Drew the Bowie training knife from my vest, flipped it over in mid air to catch the blade and threw it in true Nina fashion at about 10meters to catch an player from red team in the face just as they stormed the doorway

 

The smugness was short lived however as I was drilled by multiple weapons of the stack coming in behind him. Well worth it though.

[HeartBreaker1317]

That sounds like something out of an action/war drama - making the last stand to save your comrades, running out of ammunition, and taking one more with you with a knife throw before falling under intense enemy fire. Did you get a video? If it went down half as cool as it looks in my head then I'd want to see it.

[CharlieQB]

That sounds like something out of an action/war drama - making the last stand to save your comrades, running out of ammunition, and taking one more with you with a knife throw before falling under intense enemy fire. Did you get a video? If it went down half as cool as it looks in my head then I'd want to see it.

 

Thats how it went down

 

PM 'Pacino' on these forums.....it was him that got it in the head Edit: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...p;#entry1656992 near the bottom

 

No video, although one of my teamates does have a helmet cam that works very well. Not to expensive, quite light, easy to mount to the side of your helmet or gun.

 

Check out this vid to get an idea of the quality:

 

I think I'm going to have to get one.

[CharlieQB]

double post, sorry

[jimbothepainter]

Nice bit of footage there CharlieQB, think I'm going to have to invest in one of those. Looks like an awesome event at Longmoor I may have to try and visit sometime this year although the diary is pretty busy already.

On the subject of knife kills specifically "thrown", is there not a safety issue? Some people I've spoken to about thrown knives have expressed concerns about glasses being knocked off. In your experience has this ever happened?

 

[darkchild130]

personally i wouldnt throw my knife, i feel it could knock someone's goggles off or smash their teeth out. But it is a cool idea.

 

Darkchild

[CharlieQB]

personally i wouldnt throw my knife, i feel it could knock someone's goggles off or smash their teeth out. But it is a cool idea.

 

Darkchild

 

The Werkz is a hardcore CQC site with engangment distances sometimes down to a couple of meters. 99% of the players who attend the site wear full face protection for that reason (the 1% who don't are Aussie's ) and the face protection is paintball style normaly, with a thick elastic strap to keep it in place.

 

The knifes we use are very light and only just heavy enough to maintain a straight line of flight when thrown. I would accept that there is a very small chance it could knock shooting specs of a players face, but then again, I wouldn't throw a knife at a player who was just wearing specs for fear of giving them a fat lip.

 

 

 

 

[The Captain]

I wouldn't throw a knife at a player who was just wearing specs for fear of giving them a fat lip.

 

Well, that would be kind of you!

[darkchild130]

To be honest, if anyone threw a knife at me in airsoft i would probably react unfavourably.

 

Darkchild

[Stealthbomber]

To be honest, if anyone threw a knife at me in airsoft i would probably react unfavourably.

 

Darkchild

Very diplomatically put.

[gaz-gell]

knife kills are cool... i seem to be the token SPECOPS knifer though with people generally prefering bang kills.

 

Even though i have a rubber training knife i haven't ever plunged it into someone.. going for the friendly tap on the shoulder or other exposed bodily part..

 

Throwing knives is a no no.. i mean really in reality you couldn`t do it so why do it in airsoft... and to be fair i think i`d get a bit peeved if i was struck with a huge rubber knife..

 

As for real knives i have never really got the idea of that at airsoft.. i mean really who last used their 12inch bowie knife to tighten a screw or anything?...

 

it does look cool with pistol and knife in a very metal gear solid cqc technique...

[triggerhappyNL]

yeah knife kills rule

 

was at an old fortress once, had me a new cold steel training knife. hide in a dark corner ( well, there where no lights so the entire bunker was pitch black ), waited for a group to come by, they spoke flamish ( whish is a dialect of dutch, spoken only in belgium but can be understood by dutchies ) , realized they where not of my team, and that there where 4 guys. was good fun the third came by me and didn't see me, i jumped out, stabbed the last anf third guy in a single sweep, the jumped the second and hit him to, and finally i took out the first guy with a wall-jump into him. it was a massacre in total darkness. they provided the light i needed to kill them

 

i didn't hit them hard and here weaccept pain as it's a part of the game. you don't like the pain of the game, go play chess, is our saying here. we do hit people with the knifes, tapping is considered a greater honour then hitting with the knifes but massacre's like these are great and also highly respected. inside the fortress you can hear breathing for dozens of feet away so being stealthy is extremly hard. i so rocked that day until the hop-up jammed and i had to quit playing and fix the gun but those 4 kills where the greatest i ever made

[CharlieQB]

To be honest, if anyone threw a knife at me in airsoft i would probably react unfavourably.

 

Darkchild

 

Don't bother playing Electrowerkz then, you'll hate it

 

Gaz-gell: Yes your quite right, It's not about stabbing a rubber knife into someone's solar plexus, up to the hilt with force. A tap on the arm or in the vest just with the tip will suffice and at the Werkz is considered a humiliation death, where the victim should crawl back to there spawn point on hands and knees.

 

Throwing knives is a no no.. i mean really in reality you couldn`t do it so why do it in airsoft... and to be fair i think i`d get a bit peeved if i was struck with a huge rubber knife..

 

Well you can do it in real life....you'd just need hundreds of hours of practice and a dart board to obtain the level of skill required. Joking aside, it just adds another dimension to the game in the same way as Moscarts, Pyro and spring loaded Claymores do.

 

Please don't go down the root of Airsoft Vs. Reality......this is a game, the guns are toy's and ammunition is plastic. It's all fun.

 

[minimiman]

To be honest this has been done to death several times.

 

Irrespective of your likes or dislikes of knife kills it comes down to the site rules you are playing at, we allow knife kills, but it's a single finger tap on the shoulder. If somebody wants to carry a plastic knife with them during the game they can but they are not to be used on another player.

 

We do have specialist games that are more role play based and we allow LARP safe knives, they are not plastic, will not break the skin and are safe.

 

I wouldn't personally play at a site where during a normal skirmish physical contact above a tap on the shoulder was allowed, training knives, plastic knives and rubber knives are all dangerous when used irresponsibly, I have seen lots of players I wouldn't trust with a wet cucumber, let alone a training knife.

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

I wouldn't personally play at a site where during a normal skirmish physical contact above a tap on the shoulder was allowed, training knives, plastic knives and rubber knives are all dangerous when used irresponsibly, I have seen lots of players I wouldn't trust with a wet cucumber, let alone a training knife.

Absolutely.

 

In an amazing coincidence, my wife nearly gutted me with a foam knife today.

I muck about, jabbing at her with it in the house (it's a foam knife with a latex skin) and I always deliberately bend it as I prod so it folds over sideways.

Today she saw the knife lying on the coffee table, grabbed it and stuck it straight into me.

To be fair, I doubt she could have inflicted a wound but it bloody-well hurt and I now have a bruise on my side, even though I was wearing a T-shirt and a fleece at the time.

 

In the heat of a skirmish I can imagine people getting a bit heavy-handed with rubber knives and it ending in tears, especially if people were using them as boyonets. That's just bonkers IMO.

 

TBH, I'm all for people making use of knives during skirmishes, just not stabbing them into each other.

Maybe a situation where you're rescuing a hostage and one member of the team is the "scout" who carries a knife and can make silent kills with it while everybody else has to shoot?

Equally, it might be nice if a (rubber) knife carrier was the only one who could defuse mines or cut trip-wires etc.

[CharlieQB]

 

I'm confused....

 

You trust other players to run around with 328fps AEG's spitting out 0.2g BB's at 25+ rounds a second into limbs, face and (now and again) the crown jewels......but not a soft rubber knife?. You talk of the "in the heat of the skirmish"....surely being overkilled with an AEG is more of a worry than letting yourself get to close to someone who knifes you with a soft rubber blade?. Ok, you got a bruise on your side and it hurt from your wife attacking you, but a BB strike can and will do the exact same.

 

As you said it down to site rules. A mention of how knife kills work or should be performed at a site, during the safety briefing should be fine, just as it works with AEG's.

 

[Stealthbomber]

I'm confused....

 

You trust other players to run around with 328fps AEG's spitting out 0.2g BB's at 25+ rounds a second into limbs, face and (now and again) the crown jewels......but not a soft rubber knife?. You talk of the "in the heat of the skirmish"....surely being overkilled with an AEG is more of a worry than letting yourself get to close to someone who knifes you with a soft rubber blade?. Ok, you got a bruise on your side and it hurt from your wife attacking you, but a BB strike can and will do the exact same.

Nope.

 

I'd definately be more concerned that some knob with a knife might misjudge his attack and end up punching me in the head. I'd be worried he might trip over as he lunges at me and ends up landing on top of me, knocking me over and fracturing my skull. I'd be more concerned that I might decide to move suddenly and end up hurting somebody who was in the process of sneaking up behind me. I'd DEFINATELY be worried that somebody with a rubber knife fitted on the end of an AEG might attempt any of the above things and end up impaling me.

 

None of those things would concern me when I'm being shot at from 10m away (or even 2m away).

 

I am, basically, for the idea of knife kills. I just think the idea should be implimented responsibly and people should be aware that a foam knife, when it has an 80kg airsofter behind it, can transmit an awful lot of energy into the victim.

 

Frankly, I think throwing them is irresponsible in the extreme.

[Senor Bear]

I'm confused....

 

You trust other players to run around with 328fps AEG's spitting out 0.2g BB's at 25+ rounds a second into limbs, face and (now and again) the crown jewels......but not a soft rubber knife?. You talk of the "in the heat of the skirmish"....surely being overkilled with an AEG is more of a worry than letting yourself get to close to someone who knifes you with a soft rubber blade?. Ok, you got a bruise on your side and it hurt from your wife attacking you, but a BB strike can and will do the exact same.

 

As you said it down to site rules. A mention of how knife kills work or should be performed at a site, during the safety briefing should be fine, just as it works with AEG's.

 

Bendy knives being jabbed into you at the right angle hurt a damn sight more than .2g bbs at 328fps ever would.

[minimiman]

You trust other players to run around with 328fps AEG's spitting out 0.2g BB's at 25+ rounds a second into limbs, face and (now and again) the crown jewels......but not a soft rubber knife?.

 

Absolutly.

 

328fps is a known entity, a knife isn't.

 

If it was a LARP knife and everybody was properly briefed and trained it their use, then thats a different prospect, but under normal skirmish conditions not a chance in hell. Training knives, rubber knives and plastic knives come in a huge variety, without exception they could cause a much greater injury than a .2gram BB. I have seen plastic knives as sharp as steel ones and a tip on a rubber/plastic knife that was nearly as sharp as a metal one. Plunge that with force into somebody's ribs and the outcome is far from satisfactory.

 

If you want to play by those rules at Electroworks then crack on, I assume a risk assesment is made and every knife inspected to make sure it's 'safe' and a maximum energy level it can be thrown with or stuck into somebody is strictly enforced, or alternatively if it's a judgment thing, good luck if there is ever a law suit. Allowing untrained people to stick plastic knives into each other is only going to one day end in tears if somebody gets over ambitious or it gets out of hand.

 

Running a site and ultimatly carrying the can if there is a problem focuses the mind to possible problems, knife kills on general game days are one of those problem areas so a single finger tap on the shoulder is all we allow.

 

If site rules allow it, that's an issue for that site, but in my mind it doesn't make it any more desirable.

 

[cafemondo]

Do med rules come into play at all? If someones trying to make a sneaky knife kill and fails do you do the honourable thing by giving them a spoken bang(lol) because its less than a couple of meters? Or can you pull out your own rubber knife and try and counter whack them with it if youre feeling daring? can you block a knife attack and how hard? SSSHHHH thats the noise wind makes being sucked through my teeth when I heard about knife kills, dont think its done at my site. Im fairly uncomfortable with it as I havent experienced how it would turn out in reality. Especially if it hurt a damn site more than a hot bb riddling.

Agree with most of the points, you raise regarding resposible play stealth apart from the knife throwing, christ wouldnt it be hilarious to see someone get whanged a corker with the butt of some large bowie right on the forehead. Hey +1 to your wife for making a stealth kill

[CharlieQB]

I'd definately be more concerned that some knob with a knife might misjudge his attack and end up punching me in the head. I'd be worried he might trip over as he lunges at me and ends up landing on top of me, knocking me over and fracturing my skull. I'd be more concerned that I might decide to move suddenly and end up hurting somebody who was in the process of sneaking up behind me. I'd DEFINATELY be worried that somebody with a rubber knife fitted on the end of an AEG might attempt any of the above things and end up impaling me.

 

The same could happen with someone leaning in to tag kill you TBH. I agree rubber weapons strapped to an AEG barrel is not on, as with the weight of a full metal AEG behind it would make it difficult to gauge pressure used in tapping the tip into a players vest, or just even tap on someone's arm (as it should be done).

 

I am, basically, for the idea of knife kills. I just think the idea should be implimented responsibly and people should be aware that a foam knife, when it has an 80kg airsofter behind it, can transmit an awful lot of energy into the victim.

 

So you agree a mention of use in the site safety brief would suffice?

 

Frankly, I think throwing them is irresponsible in the extreme.

 

Some might argue allowing more than 100fps on a site is irresponsible. In a game/sport that is plagued with possible dangers....I can't personally see how this raises the bar any more.......I will however respect your right to.

 

 

 

[CharlieQB]

Absolutly.

 

328fps is a known entity, a knife isn't.

 

If it was a LARP knife and everybody was properly briefed and trained it their use, then thats a different prospect, but under normal skirmish conditions not a chance in hell. Training knives, rubber knives and plastic knives come in a huge variety, without exception they could cause a much greater injury than a .2gram BB. I have seen plastic knives as sharp as steel ones and a tip on a rubber/plastic knife that was nearly as sharp as a metal one. Plunge that with force into somebody's ribs and the outcome is far from satisfactory.

 

If you want to play by those rules at Electroworks then crack on, I assume a risk assesment is made and every knife inspected to make sure it's 'safe' and a maximum energy level it can be thrown with or stuck into somebody is strictly enforced, or alternatively if it's a judgment thing, good luck if there is ever a law suit. Allowing untrained people to stick plastic knives into each other is only going to one day end in tears if somebody gets over ambitious or it gets out of hand.

 

Running a site and ultimatly carrying the can if there is a problem focuses the mind to possible problems, knife kills on general game days are one of those problem areas so a single finger tap on the shoulder is all we allow.

 

If site rules allow it, that's an issue for that site, but in my mind it doesn't make it any more desirable.

 

This sounds like the words of a man born victim of this day and age's "the man from health and safety". Train people in the use of Rubber knifes??....your serious?. We all play/run/manage/marshall sites that are all built on common sense. You tell people not to remove there masks from there face once they have left the safe zone so they don't get blinded or shoot at someone who has taken there mask off. It's plain common sense. A mention of how to perform a knife kill in the safety brief is also plain, easy to digest common sense. I've yet to meet or hear of a player bedding a rubber knife up to the hilt in someone's solar plexus while screaming "YEA *badgeress*, YOU LIKE THAT?, YEA!" *followed by manic laughter*

[Captain Hat]

The knifes we use are very light and only just heavy enough to maintain a straight line of flight when thrown. I would accept that there is a very small chance it could knock shooting specs of a players face, but then again, I wouldn't throw a knife at a player who was just wearing specs for fear of giving them a fat lip.

'Scuse oi Charlie, but I just thought it important to emphasise this point. I believe Janno does actually check anything that is to be used as a knife before he allows it into the 'Werkz gaming area, and has a brief chat with the user of said item to ensure he knows the rules. He certainly did with Noodles when he brought his rubber chicken along.

 

Knife kills at Elektro are almost never insane hotblooded affairs, in spite of the fast-paced nature of the arena. Most of the regulars are very sound people and know where the line is. I think the most "violent" "knife kill" I ever got was while I was in the process of sliding forwards on my *albartroth* after falling over, and even that was just a pat on the chest. I've taken people out with knife kills by frontally assaulting them in Elektro before and managed to retain the sense to just pat them on the shoulder while running past them saying "Knife!"

[minimiman]

This sounds like the words of a man born victim of this day and age's "the man from health and safety". Train people in the use of Rubber knifes??....your serious?. We all play/run/manage/marshall sites that are all built on common sense. You tell people not to remove there masks from there face once they have left the safe zone so they don't get blinded or shoot at someone who has taken there mask off. It's plain common sense. A mention of how to perform a knife kill in the safety brief is also plain, easy to digest common sense. I've yet to meet or hear of a player bedding a rubber knife up to the hilt in someone's solar plexus while screaming "YEA *badgeress*, YOU LIKE THAT?, YEA!" *followed by manic laughter*

 

We get 80 people on site of which a high portion don't know each other from Adam, some are rentals, some are youngsters and some are regular and experienced. What happens at a cqb enviroment doesn't suit our site, end off.

 

I have seen far to many plastic knives that can cut skin, take an example, a young player (we are insured down to 11 years old) gets knifed by a 18 year old who goes to wipe the blade on the victims kneck but stumbles at the same time putting more pressure than intended. The plastic knife has a nick in it and the kneck gets cut. It's an accident, but then the parent gets involved and demands to know why their son has had their kneck sliced by a knife and calls the police.

 

I'm not prepared to risk that, if you are then good for you but you don't own my site, I do, and you don't take the responsibility of the players safety on my site.

 

Common sence is unfortunatly not very common, there are legal processes in place for businesses including health and safety and if they are not followed you can end up in deep water, risk assesments and method statements are a fact of life, just because they are 'anti fun' in some situations doesn't mean they are not required. Knifing somebody with a rubber knife is not a normal activity like walking, therefore an assesment of the players ability to carry out a knife attack and the correct training (even if it is just a demonstration) is required in law. That's not being "the man from health and safety" it's called sensible *albartroth* covering. From the post above it looks like that happens at Electo, but that doesn't mean it's suitable for every site and I would argue it's not suitable for most sites.

 

The other issue is players age, I seem to remember Electo has an 18 and over age limit, if it does then it's different to the vast majority of sites in the UK. I don't even want to get into the legalities of pretending to knife a youngster, that opens up a whole new debate.