Knife kills?

[Samm]

next you'll be suggesting we cant point these nasty realistic looking guns at each other, just in case someone gets a bit scared...

Now you're just being silly for the sake of it.

 

It's good practice to respect peoples boundaries, a lot of people can be very iffy with you being in there personal space, it's just common sense especially if a tap on the shoulder works just as well. Show some common courtesy for peoples' solitude by not invading their privacy.

 

If a person needs to get up close and personal with body contact and showing signs of physical dominance then it's probably better that they join a Judo club instead.

[heroshark]

It's good practice to respect peoples boundaries, a lot of people can be very iffy with you being in there personal space, it's just common sense especially if a tap on the shoulder works just as well. Show some common courtesy for peoples' solitude by not invading their privacy.

 

so no leg humping

[Pyrodex]

so no leg humping

 

awwwwww.... one by one my in-game repatoir is being eaten away...

[Pyrodex]

Now you're just being silly for the sake of it.

 

guilty.. i do that, sorry..

 

It's good practice to respect peoples boundaries, a lot of people can be very iffy with you being in there personal space, it's just common sense especially if a tap on the shoulder works just as well. Show some common courtesy for peoples' solitude by not invading their privacy.

 

yes true, but im sure the guys i play with wouldnt take it the wrong way, but if they did i would be sure to apologise and reconsider whether i'd do it again.. it was me being "knife killed" that influenced me to get one, ive had it a year and only used it twice, i definatly dont go creeping around "Rambo" style!

 

If a person needs to get up close and personal with body contact and showing signs of physical dominance then it's probably better that they join a Judo club instead.

 

been there, done that, to be honest i met far more worrying people in the martial arts scene than i have airsofting.. for the reason you state, they just seem to like that stuff abit too much.. not my bag tbh.

[greg]

Some one said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Hard.

 

This one's a bit, er, necro really.

 

 

Greg.

[Danke]

I think the point is here is this is a game of gentlemen's agreements like taking hits and the like. If you have a gentlemen's agreement that poking each other with pointy sticks is also OK then there will also be an engagement rule for those also to preserve both players safety.

 

No one wants to get blunted in the soft tissue with a chunk of plastic by way of a Rambo wanabe, and said ninja would most likely not enjoy being flipped and either stabbed with his knife, or having his nuts kicked back up into his body.

 

In other words if you assume that it's OK to close with another player and grapple, expect them to fight for their life with all means at their disposal.

 

[Kyrian_Zenda]

I carry a rubber knife with me, and the most I'll ever and have indeed ever done with it is poke them in the chest with it and yell BANG. I make sure, though, that the person I'm poking actually has something like a chest-rig or some kind of armour before I poke 'em with it. Anyone else, it's just a tap or something. I have gotten quite a few kills with it, and only one guy got ######, but that was mainly because he wasn't taking his hits and this was one he had to take, considering, that a. I'd jumped out from behind a doorway, yelled BANG and jabbed him in his chest-rig with it and b. he had 3 friends behind him and I had another friend in hiding ready to engage if need be. I took a hit without being shot after seeing the guys behind him, mainly to save myself getting pelted with BBs and 'cos there's no way I'd not get hit anyway without Matrix-ninja-skillz. Most other people are like, aw ######, nice one. Made one guy jump like 2 feet in the air, had a right laugh about that when we got back to the safe zone, even shook my hand when he found out it was me (after calling me a *bramston pickle*, of course).

 

But as for plastic knives? That's a bit of stretch to carry to a skirmish, isn't it? I mean, a rubber one will bend when you poke someone with it, but plastic ones...yeh, they'll bend, but not as easily as a rubber one. I want to get a plastic bayonet for my M4, but I'd only use it for posing, since that's all they're really good for. The only real knife you should really carry is something small-ish to use as a tool, like a folder or a pen-knife, something along those lines. Anything else at a skirmish is a big no-no.

[Dope on a Rope]

 

Pyrodex:

 

"im getting addicted to knife kills, i got my second yesterday.. nothing beats sneaking up behind a guy and giving him a gentle poke in the neck with a rubber blade...lol"

 

I've seen an actor nearly kill another with a prop knife when he tripped and 'poked' the other guy in the neck - there's far too much fragile stuff there in the neck to be using it as an aim point.

 

"we use (relatively) harmless replica guns, why not even more harmless rubber knives? dont the real military guys we enjoy emulating so much carry knives? im not condoning throwing the things or anything like that, that seems like asking for trouble, but it all adds to the "suspension of disbelief""

 

The real military guys (I'm an ex military guy) are issued knifes - mostly bayonets, very few active soldiers are taught knife kills / knife fighting - the reasons being:

 

A: If you've got to use a knife you've really fouled up, are damm unlucky or are too damm close.

 

B: A knife kill isn't silent or very quick, it is noisy, messy and stands a good chance of giving you away to the enemy - so it's very 'Hollywood' but it really isn't proper soldiering, a proper silent kill can only be made with a garrote - are we going to start carrying those? I think not.

 

C: SF troops (at least the UK ones) work on the basis of using supressed weapons if they have to make close in kills.

 

So if we are talking about milsim, realism or suspension of disbelief - carrying knives doesn't cut it -at most we as airsofters would be carrying bayonets 99% of the time sheathed.

 

I used to carry two knives with me when on active service, but then I was RAF search and rescue - one knife was the aircrew survival knife, a blunt bludgeon of a knife that could cut bugger all (most of us bought private purchase knives instead) and a line cutter - originally developed for paratroops to cut line, we used it for cutting ropes lines etc and also for cutting people out of life jackets or immersion suits, it would have made a ###### poor weapon.

 

 

I enjoy a good knife kill as much as the next airsofter, after all being close enough to walk up behind someone without them knowing, tap them on the shoulder and say you're dead takes much skill. But using any form of prop knife to me is a no no.

 

 

I've read comments about having blunt aluminium knives that can't take an edge - as someone who went into stage managment and fight arranging I've seen plenty of cuts from soft metal stage knives and swords to be very cautious - 'prop' weapons can and do burr, they can if fallen on stab, IMO they are not a safe weapon for airsoft.

 

In short knife kills - Hell yes !!

 

Prop knives - No way !!

 

 

[AirsoftAddict]

people should use the free wooden chip forks they get, have a whole load and use them like throwing knives

 

[Dope on a Rope]

 

As an aside, I was talkingto a friend who is a member of the sealed knot, they have banned aluminium swords because of the number of injuries from aluminium swords that have burred.

 

Also if we are (in another thread) talking about how two tones are a potential threat to airsoft, surely the fact that players are wandering about with replica knives is also a potential threat - look these nut jobs are also playing with knives ergo they are not only encouraging gun culture but knife culture as well ?

[Sharamik]

Agree with Dope on this one - I love the knife kill rule, but prop knives should never be used, they're just too dangerous (even rubber ones) and they are also unnecessary.

 

I've become very good with knife kills in CQB: last time I went to FCS London I got more knife kills than gun kills. I just tap people on the top of the head.

[CharlieQB]

Agree with Dope on this one - I love the knife kill rule, but prop knives should never be used, they're just too dangerous (even rubber ones) and they are also unnecessary.

 

I've become very good with knife kills in CQB: last time I went to FCS London I got more knife kills than gun kills. I just tap people on the top of the head.

 

TBF you should really be saying "they're just too dangerous if the user doesn't know what he/she is doing"?. I've not heard of people injured by rubber knifes in desk drawers for example.

 

If you take this debate to it's logical conclusion, we shouldn't be firing projectiles at each other because of the added 'risk'. We could buy the guns, put batteries in them and dry fire them at each other while shouting "bang!". A bang kill is as good as a projectile hit some would say (not myself) so we remove the projectile coming out the gun at 15-40 rounds per second at 350fps and we have pretty much made the Sport as safe as possible. That's not going to happen, and as it's not going to happen we'll have to continue to trust the other strangers with the high powered RIF's at the site were playing at not to aim for the face, head, testicles, finger nails and in any case of what there intended or not intended body part was. Then theres the possibility of overkill on said body parts. You think about it, we do sub consciously have to put a lot of trust in strangers at soft sites.

 

Once you appreciate we have to trust others in order to play the game I fail to see why they can not be trusted with a rubber knife. By all means mention and demonstrate the do's and dont's of how to use them at the safety brief ie, you only tap on the top of the arm, never thrust at any part of the body ect. Also announce at the start of the day that all players with rubber knifes must present them to the senior Marshall to check that they are 'safe' for use at the site.

 

Please tell me I'm wrong by all means, I like a good debate. I'm more than happy to listen to others views, I just don't see the logic in some of whats being said.

[minimiman]

My site insurance doesn't cover players using knive, forks, plastic spoons, cups, aluminmum knives or anything else to stab each other with, even in a soft playful manner.......so it doesn't happen.

 

It does cover people shooting at each other with airsoft guns and it does cover knife kills as a tap on the shoulder with a finger. To that end....that's what we allow.

 

I don't see the conversation as actually going anywhere from what has already been said, each and every site has it's own rules and by and large they are dictated by insurance stipulations. If a site allows the use of rubber knives I would expect it to be risk assesed, and methodology put in place to ensure any insurance stipulation is followed. That said, unless the knives are "larp safe" weapons I haven't seen an insurance policy yet that covers it.

[Dope on a Rope]

 

"Once you appreciate we have to trust others in order to play the game I fail to see why they can not be trusted with a rubber knife. By all means mention and demonstrate the do's and dont's of how to use them at the safety brief ie, you only tap on the top of the arm, never thrust at any part of the body ect. Also announce at the start of the day that all players with rubber knifes must present them to the senior Marshall to check that they are 'safe' for use at the site."

 

 

I can see part of your point, but at the same time problems I can see:

 

The amount of time to check knives, some sites I've been to take ages to chrono, add in checking knives on top of that would be wasting another 30 - 40 minutes of my playing time.

 

Public image, as I said before if we are getting antsy about two tone guns possibly causing problems with the image of airsoft, what image does carrying knives portray?

 

I've met a few numpties at airsoft and to be fair I have qualms about them handling an airsoft rifle, but at least I can stay physically away from them, putting knives into thier hands is now encouraging them to get physically close to me and be a numpty. Of the bulk of the people I've seen personally using and carrying knives they IMO do not have the right 'attitude' (often quite aggressive characters) to be carrying knives or using, of the others I would say that they do not have the knowledge of how to do it safely, the fact there hasn't been more accidents in airsoft involving knives I'd say is more luck than judgment.

 

Also if the 'sport' of airsoft is about realism, etc then why to we need knives - see my previous posts.

 

And last but not least, I can walk up behind someone, tap them on the shoulder and say "You're dead", it's just as effective, doesn't result in someone being genuinely scared by some nut job putting a knife in the back of thier neck or on thier throat and doesn't risk injury from yanking thier head back or a prop that may or may not be dangerous.

 

I cannot see a justification for carrying knives.

 

[CharlieQB]

Also if the 'sport' of airsoft is about realism, etc then why to we need knives - see my previous posts.

 

I cannot see a justification for carrying knives.

 

I call Airsoft a Sport on the basis it's the most physical exercise I do in a week. Running up and down stairs with my loadout and weapons acting as resistance training. Activity would be more appropriate title I guess.

 

We would need to break the debate down to Skirmishes and Milsim I guess (no I haven't got the time or inclination to do so) in order to make sense of what realism we are trying to add or not add.

 

My justification for carrying as mentioned was "Tapping someone on the shoulder with a rubber knife I agree with. At the point of drawing the knife you could flaf it, make a sound, drop it accidentally and give the stalked a split seconds heads up to spin round and get the drop on you. Thats more fun IMO than becoming a T-1000 and morphing your hand in to a blade (be it a rubber one). Also you might let your guard down as you try and re-sheath the knife after the kill and get killed yourself by someone you didn't see because you were looking at your vest/belt."

 

For me it's more about the Kudos of the kill. My local site the Academy in Lewisham count 'Tag Kills' as kills as well as 'Knife Kills' I'd rather the latter for the reasons above. It's more fun, it's more risky for me to do than just Tag them out and it presents a logistical challenge.

 

I happy to agree to disagree.

 

And last but not least, I can walk up behind someone, tap them on the shoulder and say "You're dead", it's just as effective, doesn't result in someone being genuinely scared by some nut job putting a knife in the back of thier neck or on thier throat and doesn't risk injury from yanking thier head back or a prop that may or may not be dangerous.

 

It's possible some *rickroll* head might do that, but so are a lot of things. You could just as easily have someone drive the barrel of the rifle straight into someones solar plexus or throat. The list goes on. If they were briefed by the site organizor that they couldn't, shouldn't have done something, the'll get banned and quickly run out of sites to pull that kind of kac.

 

 

 

[Dope on a Rope]

 

Charlie I'd be interested in views on the image aspect of carrying knives, is this really something we want associated with this sport / activity / hobby ?

[CSAirsoftJunkie]

I personally don't feel safe getting close enough to people to do that without them freaking out and shooting me. Could be the maturity of the people I play with, but it just doesn't feel safe. I prefer to just use a 10ft bang kill rule

[Harmless]

Charlie I'd be interested in views on the image aspect of carrying knives, is this really something we want associated with this sport / activity / hobby ?

as opposed to running around with RIF's shooting each other? I suspect the negative view of such an activity is unlikely to be greatly altered whether or not rubber knives are used or carried.

 

Charlie is a great example of how knife kills should be carried out. I've seen him do it and been on the wrong end too. He doesn't stab or grab , he just flicks his wrist to tap you with the side of the blade, not hard at all. Its a lot less painful than when I come round the corner with an upgrade P90 and shoots you at point blank (FCS does not recognise a bang rule ,there is no minimum engagement rule and a last sec switch to a tag is not usually possible)

[CharlieQB]

Charlie I'd be interested in views on the image aspect of carrying knives, is this really something we want associated with this sport / activity / hobby ?

 

Harmless beat me to it, it's what I would have said TBH

 

[scorch]

Charlie is a great example of how knife kills should be carried out. I've seen him do it and been on the wrong end too. He doesn't stab or grab , he just flicks his wrist to tap you with the side of the blade, not hard at all.

 

 

I think the point is, thats not the way everyone does it.

 

Done like that, I'd be cool with, the whole "Solid Snake" impression, I'd be most unamused indeed with.

[Chimpy]

Harmless beat me to it, it's what I would have said TBH

 

Thirded. In terms of popular image we already run around looking like some odd paramilitary outfit so carrying around fake knives is hardly going to raise eyebrows in the grand scheme!

 

As long as the rules/etiquette/whatever are established I'd have no problem with people tapping me with a plastic or rubber training knife. In terms of risk it's somewhere way below the dangers of running into or falling on pointy tree branches and slightly above being poked by someones finger. The key is making sure the limits are explained clearly beforehand and everyone is accepting of them. Obviously for site operators their insurance is also a concern and I can accept that even though they risk assess more dangerous things if it's not covered by the insurance, it's not covered by insurance and they might not want to accept liability if anything did happen.

 

One thing I would stress is that if you are doing this sort of thing then live blades should be kept well away.

[shibisueka]

I agree as well, a tap on the shoulder with a knife is good enough. One guy I know wanted to be able to throw them at you! Throw a rubber knife!

Does anyone carry a live blade with them, just in case, or to make a loophole to shoot through?

[scorch]

I have a small knife I sometimes use for cutting a bit of foliage for my hat and sniper rifle. But I hardly ever get close enough for a knife kill. The very few times I get close enough, they'll get my pistol pointed at their back with an offer to surrender and take the hit.