The New Association of British Airsoft

[sball2000]

Ukara does not need competition, it may have some bad points but it offers a means for us to get past the VCRA. Any issues with Ukara can probably be remedied over time and the Aoba will just further complicate matters with nothing more to offer than Ukara does. Why have two firms doing exactly the same thing? We may end up with some sites being Aoba and others Ukara and then what?

 

 

 

 

[Apex]

Ukara does not need competition, it may have some bad points but it offers a means for us to get past the VCRA. Any issues with Ukara can probably be remedied over time and the Aoba will just further complicate matters with nothing more to offer than Ukara does. Why have two firms doing exactly the same thing? We may end up with some sites being Aoba and others Ukara and then what?

 

 

SBALL2000

Ukara represent the retailers.

[Janno]

Clearly, this whole scheme hasn't been thought through, and unfortunately looks like a bunch of guys running an operation from their bedroom, trying to make a quick buck out of airsofters.

 

At FCS London, we are arguably the most expensive membership going, but we make sure our members are very well looked after and discounts are upheld.

 

These guys don't yet seem to be able to offer anything to their members, and their intentions seem to be to make money out of them, rather than provide value for money to them. It's this latter point that potential members will be focused on when it comes to parting with their hard-earned cash.

 

Whether it's a legitimate operation or an opportunistic con, the result is still the same: It's a very half-assed attempt.

 

 

[AceOfSkulls]

EDIT : Found the bit about 10% enforced discount.

 

http://www.aoba.org.uk/retailers/requirements.php

 

I have only one thing to say about that which is....

 

...Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! No

 

 

LOL! what would retailers rather pay? a 10% discount year round or £100 to Ebola . . . sorry AOBOA .

 

yet more monies earned for the mystery men behind this company ( i would say organisation, but they seem far from organised!)

[mrpugster]

Has any player/organisation tried to setup any scheme which doesn't cost either players or sites/retailers any money yet? The technical work behind it is essentially a database with a web interface and user website - pretty simple stuff just time consuming. The hard part I would say is getting it recognised and coming up with a procedure that satisfies all parties. I've thought about starting work on such an idea but would like to see it succeed through the combined efforts of airsofters.

 

I'm interested if anyone has any constructive thoughts on this!

[Tom Andrews]

In fairness its unlikely a scheme would be set up that didn't cost players/sites/retailers money. Its all very well stating that it is simple to set up a database etc, however someone needs to pay for the time consumed and that wouldn't be cheap.

 

Unless the person running the scheme was an eccentric millionaire or retired with nothing else to do.

[500fps@50mtrs]

Hello to all.

 

My name is Phil and I am the Secretary for the Association of British Airsoft.

 

Firstly I would like to say a Big Thank You! on behalf of the Association for all of the email's and messages we have already received and especially to those Airsofters who have already shown their support by signing up for the preregistration.

 

Ok on to the matter in hand. There have been many post's with many points raised, and allot of questions have been asked (and answered) so I am going to try and answer a few of the more pressing ones. I would say to anyone who has any pressing questions or suggestions to email them to us via the web site and we will answer every single one personally.

 

So first thing to clear up "they are just doing it for the money" "it's a scam" "look's like a nice earner" "it's a business" etc., etc., etc...

 

Do I really need to answer that one? Ok Yes the game is up! it's a great big scam! we got together and decided the best way to make some money was to rip off a huge group of people from all walks of life including the Police and Armed Police, the many branch's of the Armed Forces and if rumours are to be believed members of certain Special Forces Groups. Yep those are the sort of people you want to ###### off and swindle money out of.

 

Joking over. This was not set up to provide a quick cash boost, it was not set up as a business and it is not a get rich quick scam. The AOBA was started to bring Airsofters together and when necessary give them a voice.

 

People have said "who gave them permission to represent all of us" We are not trying to represent all of you. We represent the members of the AOBA. No one in the Association is so arrogant to think that we know better than everyone else! come on guys you don't really think that do you? We are here to represent a group of people who have a common interest in a much maligned and misunderstood hobby. And if you don't want us to then non membership is completly Free.

 

We have been asked why we did this this way! or why we didn't do that that way! Well you cant download a Universal Start an Association Template from Google (I looked) So we did it the way we did it.

 

If we had had everything finalised and polished, agreed and set in stone and then launched it, everyone would have been on top of us saying why didn't you ask us. So we launched the web site and sent out a few press releases and then what we got back from certain quarters was why didn't you get everything finalised and polished, agreed and set in stone and then launch it. Cant win!

 

We did consider posting questionnaires asking players what they wanted from an association, but realistically it would have taken years to incorporate everyone's thoughts and idea's. So instead we put together the basics and before to much was formalised we put it out there to see what you the players think and wait for you to contact us and tell us your idea's. And almost all of the email's we've had have been very positive.

 

We know we can’t please everyone, If the membership was free and we gave out £10 notes there would still be people who would have a problem with it! you know who you are

 

Why are we charging a membership fee? Well we all have jobs and families, rent and mortgage payments the same as everyone else, so as much as we would love to be in a position to finance everything ourselves we cant, it’s as simple as that. We need members to join up we need the money that your membership will bring to allow us to do the things we said we would.

 

All off the Associations accounts will be available to anyone who wants to see them.

 

We want to give tangible benefits to our members. We are asking for large sustained discounts from retailers, we hope to bring bulk purchasing to our members, we are always on the lookout for freebies! we can provide insurance cover in case you are injured, we will be pushing game site's to improve their facilities were needed, and we can provide free legal advice when required.

 

There are many more ideas planned! and if you have any please send them in.

 

With the clout large numbers of members will bring we hope to organise games and tournaments around the country and hopefully subsidise or possibly fully sponsor games.

 

We will promote and defend this sport to anyone who will listen or who ask's.

 

We have had very positive feedback from Retailers and Game site's. And we have had Very Very good feedback from some Manufacture's and Wholesalers.

 

The Association is working on a junior membership as we don't see why your age should preclude you from joining. And we are going to make it easier for you the player to prove you have the right to purchase RIF's. We want to make it safer for you to sell your own guns to other players when the time comes.

We cant change the law but we will try and make sure it's is upheld fairly and without bias.

 

There are I am sure many hundreds of questions you want answered and there are more points in this thread than I can possably hope to cover. So I hope you will contact us and have your say. We are not the enemy we are not trying to "own" airsoft we are here to represent the few who wish it.

 

I would like to express our thanks to Arniesairsoft for posting our press release (some haven't) and again please drop us a line we really would like to talk to you.

 

Now the above post is just that it's a post on a forum. This next bit though is a bit more heartfelt.

 

 

Clearly, this whole scheme hasn't been thought through, and unfortunately looks like a bunch of guys running an operation from their bedroom, trying to make a quick buck out of airsofters.

 

At FCS London, we are arguably the most expensive membership going, but we make sure our members are very well looked after and discounts are upheld.

 

These guys don't yet seem to be able to offer anything to their members, and their intentions seem to be to make money out of them, rather than provide value for money to them. It's this latter point that potential members will be focused on when it comes to parting with their hard-earned cash.

 

Whether it's a legitimate operation or an opportunistic con, the result is still the same: It's a very half-assed attempt.

 

 

This post makes one true statement. I am in fact in my bedroom typing this.

 

The rest contains accusations that we are trying to make money out of Airsofters this is an unfounded rant by someone who has not yet had the common decency to contact us to quantify any of his claims.

 

Remember Libel is a messy business.

 

The people Involved in the AOBA are very serious in our conviction to make this a success and when needed we will fight for the rights of anyone who we represent and the Association as a whole. We would suggest that anyone who wants to make allegations such as this should contact me directly and we can discuss them over the phone or if you prefer face to face.

 

I encourage anyone who has any doubts, comments or suggestions to please contact us!

 

 

Regards.

 

Phillip Bromley (Secretary, Association of British Airsoft)

[Chimpy]

Hey Phillip, could you tell us a bit more about:

 

- How you intend to represent your members?

- What form the legal advice you seem to offer takes?

- Who you guys actually are and what you do?

- Is the organisation going to be in anyway democratic?

 

I think the bells and whistles you want to offer members come in second to these more important issues which seem to be at the core of what you propose to do.

[Treadhead]

People have said "who gave them permission to represent all of us" We are not trying to represent all of you. We represent the members of the AOBA. No one in the Association is so arrogant to think that we know better than everyone else! come on guys you don't really think that do you? We are here to represent a group of people who have a common interest in a much maligned and misunderstood hobby. And if you don't want us to then non membership is completly Free.

 

In fairness, by your title alone you (the organisation, not you individually) are proclaiming to represent everyone. Particularly as you've taken the name from a pre-existing organisation who did aim to represent the community as a whole...

 

That aside, what are your plans in terms of actually having player representation within the organization? Will the members eventually choose the people who will be representing thier interests, or is it a case of simply saying "they joined our organisation, therefore we represent them"?...

 

Also further details of your proposed insurance scheme would be useful - what you intend to offer cover for, levels of cover etc... As somebody who is self employed, I'm literally taking my income in my hands every time I play, so having good insurance cover could be a real benefit for people like myself...

[-Angel-]

+1 to chimpy.

 

There seems to be a consistant trend of trying to blind people with offers. The questions I have are:

 

*Are retailers going to recognise your members as legal skirmishers as they do UKARA members?

 

*Do you have a list of retailers who have confirmed this?

 

*Is the "legal advice" provided by a certified legal professional?

 

*To what extent and frequency can it be used? (for example, if a member is taken to court over an RIF)

[500fps@50mtrs]

HI. Chimpy

 

Well the short answer to your first point is simple, In any way we can.

 

Any member that has an issue be that with another member a site, retailer or the authorities can if they wish contact us and we will on behalf of the member try and find a solution or a compromise to their problem, hopefully to the bennefit of the AOBA member. Secondly there is little or no defence or promotion of our sport. Should the word Airsoft get banded around negatively in the press or on the radio we will attempt to put forward a reasoned, accurate and unbiased reply that explains and disspells many of the untruths and myths surrounding us and our sport. We will also when asked and when appropriate to do so actively promote Airsoft as the Exciting & Thrilling sport it is. We have already had contact from indeviduels and organisations who are involved in gun crime prevention who know little or nothing about Airsoft guns who would like to know how to tell if a RIF is a RIF or how and where people can use the responsably.

 

 

We will take any question or querie from any member regarding legal matters and then give them advice based on the law and not on rumour. We cannot unfortunatly offer legal representation and any advice we offer is simply that. If a member has a problem that requires direct legal intervention then they must seek the help of their own legal advisor, we will try and assist them with this in any way we can. We may at somepoint in the future be in a possition to have dedicated legal council for the bennefit and use of AOBA members, all things are possable with support from you.

 

 

I am 41 tomorrow and I am a carpenter. Is that what you meant? or did you want something more personal

 

 

The final Layout of the Association has yet to be finalised. But if we just ran around doing what we want and not listening to the members then this wont work for very long. Will we have a vote on every issue? or take a ballot everytime we sign up a Game site? I dought that would be practical. And before anyone says "he didnt answer the question" your right I didn't. We are not about to get into voting people in and out before we have even got a paying member. I dont see myself doing this forever and new blood is always needed. Also we are not UKARA.

 

 

Absolutly the bells and whistles are just that. They are needed to get people in the door! the real work comes when we have members who want things to change and to improve. We dont want to lose our defense and no longer be able to enjoy our sport. We will fight tooth and nail against anyone who try's to take that away. Our voice will be much louder and much clearer the more members stand behind us.

 

Phil...

 

 

[L4byr1nth]

And what about purchasing from retailers?

 

You mentioned nothing of any type of agreements to let your members purchase R.I.F.'s from retailers I.E. UKARA.

 

That's the main reason I personally would join an organisation like this.

 

Ben.

[Treadhead]

We will take any question or querie from any member regarding legal matters and then give them advice based on the law and not on rumour.

 

I think you've missed the point of the original question though, it the legal advice coming from a qualified legal professional or from yourselves? Is it a legitimate legal opinion or an unqualified (no matter how well informed ye are) answer based on your interpretation of the laws involved?

 

[Chimpy]

Cheers Phil for the answers, it sounds like your heart is in the right place with all this.

 

Just a couple of things I thought I'd bring up:

 

We will take any question or querie from any member regarding legal matters and then give them advice based on the law and not on rumour. We cannot unfortunatly offer legal representation and any advice we offer is simply that. If a member has a problem that requires direct legal intervention then they must seek the help of their own legal advisor, we will try and assist them with this in any way we can. We may at somepoint in the future be in a possition to have dedicated legal council for the bennefit and use of AOBA members, all things are possable with support from you.

 

Your website says: "We have trained contacts who will be able to provide you with free and impartial advice on any airsoft related matter. Unsure on then VCRA? Been told a membership scheme is compulsory? Now you can find out where you stand as an airsofter and obtain the correct information!"

 

Which kind of goes against what you said. You might want to make it clear on the site that this isn't actually "legal advice" by someone trained in the legal profession.

 

I am 41 tomorrow and I am a carpenter. Is that what you meant? or did you want something more personal

 

Long walks on the beach and Italian food?

 

Na, it was more just people like to know who is behind these sorts of things. Stuff like who you are, what you do, how long have you been in Airsoft, in what capacity and that sort of thing. I was also asking in general about the entire staff behind the venture.

 

The final Layout of the Association has yet to be finalised. But if we just ran around doing what we want and not listening to the members then this wont work for very long. Will we have a vote on every issue? or take a ballot everytime we sign up a Game site? I dought that would be practical. And before anyone says "he didnt answer the question" your right I didn't. We are not about to get into voting people in and out before we have even got a paying member. I dont see myself doing this forever and new blood is always needed. Also we are not UKARA.

 

See this is the point that means I wouldn't sign up really. The bells and whistles aren't what attract people to join an association or union at the end of the day. I get that you are just starting up but any organisation that claims to be representative of a group would need to have an elected executive to my mind. It would also need to have such things explicitly spelled out in some form of constitution. That way both the people starting the organisation up and the membership know where they stand. Ideally you guys that make up a provisional executive would be tasked with organising an election for your own positions as soon as possible (the terms of which would be in the constitution). There's nothing to stop you standing of course but it would then be legitimised by the membership. If you take a look at some other associations and unions doing similar to what you guys intend to do then you can see how it is generally organised.

[Marlowe]

Just to insert the obligitary 'interfering forum administrator' post on what I feel is probably quite an important thread at the moment.

 

First of all, thanks for posting here Phil and trying to address some of the queries / concerns our members have voiced. I think it's probably much appreciated by the majority and hopefully will help your organisation to be able to have an open dialogue with regular airsofters.

 

Next, a quick plea for everyone; we've had a string of organisations and associations spring up in the wake of the VCRA (in particular the ABA and UKARA) and I think on each occasion they've taken the time to try and have open dialogues going here with members only to get exasperated by the antagonistic comments of a minority. In most cases this was at least partly their fault as well, but we're not doing ourselves any favours by abusing organisational representatives until they leave in despair.

 

So what I'd like to ask is that everyone (including myself - I've never claimed to be entirely neutral or hide strong opinions whenever I happen to hold them) please try and make sure the content of this thread is kept constructive and productive.

 

Please note I'm not asking anyone to not say if they have fears or suspicions about the ABOA or hold any other negative views on the organisation. I don't think it helps to bottle these up - I know that many hold negative sentiments on some other organisations already mentioned, and these can never be addressed unless they're voiced. If you think any organisation is doing something wrong or the best thing since sliced bread, say it. Either way I'm sure association members like Phil would rather know so they can do the good things well and the bad things worse .

 

Also - a quick warning. I have recieved and seen legal threats bandied around by so many people in airsoft now that I find it hard not to chortle every time I see them employed. I have never seen any organisation improve public relations by starting down that path. The much more sensible route is to address the offending views and prove why they are baseless.

 

With that in mind, I sincerely wish you the best of luck, Phil with the ABOA (as I would anyone undertaking such a massive project as a membership association in a fairly fractured UK community), and would ask you keep in contact on the forums so that folks can better understand what the ABOA are out to achieve.

[Basho]

I think a well worded and clear constitution is the very first thing to come back with.

 

I like a lot of what you are saying and its intention covers many of the concerns I and many others had with the ABA back in the days of the defence. However, until a full constitution is available, you can say what you wish on any forum and unfortunately it means nothing.

 

Not a FAQ, not a split betwix' player, site and retailer. Simply a document stating the rules and regulations covering the back-end, not the front end. Thanks for posting your basic details in your news section (http://aoba.org.uk/news/)

 

Also, the site is getting better (it renders in Chrome correctly now), but would you mind putting the data collection page over 443?

 

Basho

[500fps@50mtrs]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

 

Firstly I want to say that I am taken a back as to the amount of passion people feel for this sport. I do wish to express a sincere and heartfelt promise to all players that I and the people involved in this project are totally for the sport and it's players. If we did this again even at this early stage there are some things we might do differently. But the point of all this is to have something that benifits the players and the sport as a whole and if it's a bit bumpy on the way then so be it.

 

As Marlowe pointed out I could be on here forever talking to you guys and probably get nowhere. So firstly could I please ask that any points that you feel might require an indepth answer please pop them on the website and the recurring questions we will add to our FAQ page.

 

Chimpy! thanks for your comments. To make it clear on the legal front. The information on the website is correct. The point I made on here was that with the best will in the world any advice given whether from a legal source or not is still only advice and should not to be confused with giving instruction or acting on your behalf.

 

What we are offering is the use of an advice service that will offer a correct interpretation of the law as it pertains to a question. We are not and can not at this point offer free legal representaion to our members. What we can do is try and answer the miriad of questions Airsofter's new and old have.

 

We are making an introduction page as it were, with information about the current members of the AOBA. I am desperatly trying to find something interesting to put on mine

 

The constituion is on it's way and will be on the site shortly. Please keep an eye on the news page we hope to have some interesting reading matter on there from time to time.

 

Basho! again thanks for the comments mate but er "data collection page over 443?" I will pass that one on, tah!

 

l4byr1nth! Hi. Yes our membership card will allow you to legally purchase RIF's. There will be a full explanation about this on the website.

 

There will undoubtedly be things on the website that are added, ammended, removed or changed. There is nothing subversive about it things just change. If we do this thing right then what we will have at the end is a solid voice that people will have to listen to.

 

 

So here is where we are.

 

There is a new association called the AOBA I'm part of it and our intentions are not evil. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the old ABA and we are here to support the players not the retailers. We can't please everyone but we will do our best to support Airsoft as a whole. Some things we do you would do differently and some things we like you may not. The website is here www.aoba.org.uk pre registration is available now. If you have questions please drop them into the site then we can compile and answer them in one go (hopefully). You will see us at site's around the country from time to time please come over and say HI.

 

I am sure this thread will go on for quite a while and I am going to resist the temptation and only post when absolutly nessesary. Please email me or drop me a pm and I will get back to you. Any-hoo it is my last day as just a 40 year old so I am going out for a doughnut.

 

Phil...

[-Angel-]

Again, you've said a lot, but nothing at the same time.

 

Do you have a list of retailers who have agreed to take your scheme as proof of defense?

[L4byr1nth]

Also, a confirmed list of those who are offering the 10% member discount please?

 

Ben.

[Havocide]

Also, a confirmed list of those who are offering the 10% member discount please?

 

Ben.

 

 

Dear Ben, Angel.

 

In regards to the last two comments, these will be available on the website once we have received confirmation from the retailers.

 

Please bare in mind we are still in the early days of setup and more information will be available when it is ready.

 

Keep checking the website for updates and many thanks to everyone who has contacted us and pre-registered.

 

Kind regards.

Mathew Jarmain.

Association of British Airsoft.

 

 

[creepingfear]

Chimpy! thanks for your comments. To make it clear on the legal front. The information on the website is correct. The point I made on here was that with the best will in the world any advice given whether from a legal source or not is still only advice and should not to be confused with giving instruction or acting on your behalf.

 

What we are offering is the use of an advice service that will offer a correct interpretation of the law as it pertains to a question. We are not and can not at this point offer free legal representaion to our members. What we can do is try and answer the miriad of questions Airsofter's new and old have.

 

We are making an introduction page as it were, with information about the current members of the AOBA. I am desperatly trying to find something interesting to put on mine

 

Phil...

 

So basically, you want people to hand over a fiver a month just so you can turn around and read out whats currently written in the VCR Act, information I could acquire free of charge by simply going on the Home Office website, or failing that, write to the Home Office regarding my questions for the cost of a first class stamp and a sheet of paper.

 

The VCR Act isn't rocket science providing the person uses their melon.

 

Can't say this AoBA lark (and UKARA for that matter) has anything to offer me at the moment......

[AceOfSkulls]

yeah to be honest im still wary of the cost of this £5, for something i can get from UKARA (able to purchase rifs), My local site (insurance) and local site's website / ARNIES forums (advice , including legal matters) FOR FREE.

 

Basicly i want to know what you actualy intend to do with my £60 in a "Dragons Den" style break down. As for your comment "If the membership was free and we gave out £10 notes there would still be people who would have a problem with it! ", thatsvery flippant and avoids the subject of the £60.

 

Also what is the point of an ID card when i would either buy a airsoft gun through the internet, making a photo id redundant or through my local game site where im known by the staff?

 

and as i said before it says 10% OR £100 donation. Well retailers would lose alot of money with a 10% discount alot more than £100, so which one would you think retailers would go for?

[Janno]

The rest contains accusations that we are trying to make money out of Airsofters this is an unfounded rant by someone who has not yet had the common decency to contact us to quantify any of his claims.

 

Remember Libel is a messy business.

 

The people Involved in the AOBA are very serious in our conviction to make this a success and when needed we will fight for the rights of anyone who we represent and the Association as a whole. We would suggest that anyone who wants to make allegations such as this should contact me directly and we can discuss them over the phone or if you prefer face to face.

 

I encourage anyone who has any doubts, comments or suggestions to please contact us!

 

 

Regards.

 

Phillip Bromley (Secretary, Association of British Airsoft)

 

 

I have no problem discussing anything face to face Phil, and while libel is certainly a messy business, so is fraud - so please understand my hesitation in supporting your scheme.

 

I assumed that with you having laid out your intentions and methods so clearly, there would not be any need to contact you for further specifics. If this was an incorrect assumption, then i apologise. There were, however, a number of things that made me suspicious:-

 

1. AoBA taking on the name of the ABA. Surely it would have been better to start afresh with a new name, rather than step into the shoes of another organisation? Now it just looks like someone bootlegging the ABA.

 

2. Offering official advice. From unofficial sources? This is somewhat concerning, since giving out the wrong advice could very likely result in a lengthy jail term. At least UKARA is recognised by the Home Office, and so any advice they give can be considered "official."

 

3. Offering discounts from retailers. Without listing the retailers who are backing you.

 

4. Offering events/tournaments. Without naming any dates/locations.

 

5. Offering an alternative to the UKARA scheme. Without listing the (fully legit) skirmish sites who are supporting the AoBA scheme.

 

If you are still in the preparatory stages of your operation, then surely it is somewhat premature to start encouraging people to register with you? That's the equivalent of me asking people to sign up to attend a skirmish without having a venue for it!

 

In principal, i am not against the idea of having another organisation step up to the plate. However, in practice, it would have been significantly more effective to have put a few of the above resources in place before selling your services. As a site organiser, your first impressions have dissuaded me from backing your scheme. If i had received prior notification before everything went live though, then i could have well put my name on the list to back you in advance. I wouldn't feel confident in supporting the project in its current state though.

[galactica]

I would be interested as to which retailers are keenly supporting Phil's scheme, especially where the "large sustained discounts" and "trade price consumables" come in. How exactly is this going to be helping their businesses, exactly, and who is signed up? It seems to me a clear case of turkeys voting for christmas, and as such, I don't believe there is any retailer support whatsoever. Without retailer support, the organisation doesn't seem to offer any more than unqualified "legal" advice, which is of highly dubious merit, and personal injury insurance that one could obtain in many different places.

 

I contend that any association of british airsoft, rather than just airsofters, would support the whole ecosystem, and by that I mean retailers as well as sites and players. Please step forward, the supporting retailers so we can see the colour of your discounts!

[Basho]

In fairness its unlikely a scheme would be set up that didn't cost players/sites/retailers money. Its all very well stating that it is simple to set up a database etc, however someone needs to pay for the time consumed and that wouldn't be cheap.

 

Unless the person running the scheme was an eccentric millionaire or retired with nothing else to do.

 

In this case, I suspect, they are in a catch 22 situation. Only by demonstrating enough numbers having signed up could they hope to convince retailers of the need to respect a call for discount. Only by demonstrating a discount will they be able to get vast numbers to sign up.