New Magpul Product

[RacingManiac]

$30 something would be very competitively priced, since the TD Stubby QD grip is almost $90....

[uscmCorps]

... and the RS KAC Handstop is $60

[Victory]

... and the Ergo handstop is $10.

 

Oh, wait.

 

Sorry, had to.

 

And, thinking about it, for $30.00 $35.00 $34.95 (plus shipping, handling, and sales tax, if I purchase it in California), I'll give this thing a shot. If it doesn't work for me, it can join the other parts in my parts bin. (Which, actually, is where I keep my Ergo handstop, heh.)

 

-Vic

 

Edit: Happy now?

[Jagdraben]

$35. Not $30.

 

(Or, if we're going to be really anal about it, $34.95.)

[aerodrew]

I'd get one for my AR. I'd only use it when standing up at the range. It seems that it might not work to well with the bench and beanbag setup.

[Jagdraben]

Most things one hangs off the bottom rail of the fore-end of a rifle tend to interfere with using the weapon on a bench.

[aerodrew]

One exception is the standard CAA vertical grip I use on my AR. I've used it on the shooting bench for a while now. Helps to provide more stability in holding the weapon.

[Jagdraben]

Well, you're just weird.

[aznriptide859]

Looking at the pics it doesn't seem that the angle you hold the gun with w/ the AFG differs much than if you just hold it if your gun had no holding attachments at all. Then again I can't say anything unless I've tested the sucker XD.

[scorch]

Having your arm further forward like that gives you more mechanical advantage in controlling the gun.

 

 

Late to the party, I know, but I think theres more to it than that. Surely thats too far forward?

 

I mean, hold a can of paint out a foot in front of your chest in one hand, then do it with your arm fully extended. Which would you say gives you more mechanical advantage now that you take human muscle layout into it?

 

But as it says, theory based. They're probably trying to see how accurate and comfortable it can be, rather than having it set up for long periods of use.

 

 

Meh.

 

I sure can speculate when I can't sleep.

[Chimpy]

Late to the party, I know, but I think theres more to it than that. Surely thats too far forward?

 

I mean, hold a can of paint out a foot in front of your chest in one hand, then do it with your arm fully extended. Which would you say gives you more mechanical advantage now that you take human muscle layout into it?

 

But as it says, theory based. They're probably trying to see how accurate and comfortable it can be, rather than having it set up for long periods of use.

 

 

Meh.

 

I sure can speculate when I can't sleep.

 

You aren't just trying to hold the gun up. You are also managing recoil and moving the gun between targets.

 

Theory based doesn't mean it only works 'in theory'. It more means it's actually based on some theory which in this case is the waffle about human structure. It's also pointing out that the product by itself isn't going to make you a better shooter without some training on it.

[scorch]

Yeah I get that, but my (rather ill explained) point was, if your muscles work better when partially contracted, how does over-extending them provide a benefit? I get the mechanical advantage thing, but I don't think that mechanical advantage would beat the increased efficiency of your arm.

 

And yeah, they've researched it (I would assume anyway), and yeah, they're probably right. But I don't think the advantage would be enough to make the whole re-training really worth it.

[Warning]

imho i could make one of these from an old m4 stock and then gaffer tape it to the front of a rifle for less than this will probably retail for

 

o well its tacticool

[-=OGGY=-]

I'm surprized no one has mentioned the huge amount of rail the sucker takes up. (Then again someone probably has... )

 

Anyway another thing to add to the large pile of Magpul I have no use for.

[Skarclaw]

Yeah I get that, but my (rather ill explained) point was, if your muscles work better when partially contracted, how does over-extending them provide a benefit? I get the mechanical advantage thing, but I don't think that mechanical advantage would beat the increased efficiency of your arm.

 

And yeah, they've researched it (I would assume anyway), and yeah, they're probably right. But I don't think the advantage would be enough to make the whole re-training really worth it.

 

Given that most of my expeirence with guns if with airsoft, but I always figured having your front hand further foward allowed you to move it quicker on a similar basis to how leverage works.

[Jagdraben]

I'm surprized no one has mentioned the huge amount of rail the sucker takes up. (Then again someone probably has... )

 

Anyway another thing to add to the large pile of Magpul I have no use for.

 

What else are you going to hang off of that rail?

[uscmCorps]

I always figured having your front hand further foward allowed you to move it quicker on a similar basis to how leverage works.

Quicker and with more control.

[madwelshman]

You aren't just trying to hold the gun up. You are also managing recoil and moving the gun between targets.

 

Theory based doesn't mean it only works 'in theory'. It more means it's actually based on some theory which in this case is the waffle about human structure. It's also pointing out that the product by itself isn't going to make you a better shooter without some training on it.

 

 

nope, magpul "reinventing the wheel" with that whole long arm "pap".

 

Poncing around with a fencing foil, weighing 500g at the most at full stretch is fine, seeing as the pivot point for your control over the foil is at your wrist.

 

An AR of any design, pivots from your recoil shoulder, not your leading arm.

 

Again, any trained soldier will tell you you dont grip the rifle with your left hand, you cradle it, or you'll pull your shots. In Basic, christ... nearly 13 years ago now, I still remember us being shown, and trying to fire the SA80 with a fully extended left arm, it was comical how little control you have at even 100m with a real AR...

 

Anyone Serving, feel free to pipe in and prove my point (Target range Rambo's need not reply )

 

dont get me wrong, I can see how the small lip can come in usefull for quick snap shooting, finding your sweet spot with ease, but you wont find it under the foresight, no matter how much training

[madwelshman]

Quicker and with more control.

 

nope, complete tosh mate, you'll have less control, period.

 

Simple, hold a can of beans at full arms stretch and practice snapping between targets at 100m distance, 30m apart, then do it as if your cradling an AR, just infront of the magwell, same can of beans, you'll be more precise with the latter, landing on target near bang on each time, you'll overshoot with the full stretch, then overcompensate for it the next target. Not to mention, fatigue will kick in quicker with the full arm pose, regardless of the amount of "RE" training.

 

Its simply a theory, as they have stated. You'll find a couple of thier loyal customers, will swear its changed thier shooting forever!!! regardless. Most, will not give it a second look, either way, its GREAT marketing, as they have people talking about it all over the world, even thought they stated it was a theory! but we are still talking Magpul, either way! genius!

 

Its infectious! to the extent people are Idolising "Chris Costa" and wanting to create aegs based on "his guns", lol seriously, he was a U.S. Coast guard... I did a search on google, thinking he was a pro airsofter, or some Demi God.... how much did I laugh when I found out he's simply a big wig at Magpul!"

 

Dont get me wrong, the magpul stuff looks sweet, but I'll leave that tat to the geardo's, i'd prefer to spend my money on tightbores and decent internals

[Chimpy]

Meh, who is idolising Chris Costa? I was banging on about this in 2005:

 

This might not work out for everyone but I tend to pull the gun tight into my shoulder. My grip on the foregrip is 'thumb forward' rather than gripping like a bottle of beer. That also adds to the pull in. This creates a pivot round about your shoulder. Simple physics (moments) dictates that the further from the pivot point a force is applied the more angular momentum will be generated. This leads to a mechanical advantage. Thus the further out your arm is the more mechnical advantage it has and the less effort you need to hold-up/move the gun about.

 

This grip actually comes from the competition shooting world.

 

BTW the US Coast Guard is substantially different to ours! Also the other Magpul training chap is former Force Recon IIRC.

 

Here's a former SEAL explaining it:

 

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2009/09/carbine-support-grip.html

[Jagdraben]

Costa isn't the only one teaching it. In fact, pretty much the entire carbine training world is teaching it.

 

And why shouldn't they?

 

3-Gun Competition shooters and skeet/trap shooters have been using it for years. And, now, we're being told by professional face-shooters that they've been using the same grip for years, too.

 

And I find the 'lol, caost gaurd' comments amusing. As though we don't have Coasties going into harm's way... yeah, they're just partying in Iraq and Africa.... As Chimpy noted, Travis Haley is a Force Recon Marine, he's also worked for Blackwater and other PMCs. And you'll find similar lists of former employers among the others who teach the grip: SEALS, Green Berets, &c., &c., &c. Larry Vickers teaches it and I'd be surprised if Paul Howe didn't... and both of them are former Delta Force.

[ThaFlash]

There's also a very good reason why a lot of people (including myself although I have no real authority here) find this grip suspect. It serves a purpose for sure but it's also very different than how a lot of people were taught to shoot.

 

The stance makes sense from an ergonomics and physics standpoint for exactly what Magpul shows in their DVD's (short duration, intense firefights with non-combatants). With your hand fully extended, it's very similar to having a lot of distance between your front and rear sight; it allows for more precise movement. If you imagine your stock as being the center of a circle, then your support arm is the radius. The longer the radius, the greater the circumference, this means that for every inch you move your support hand to the left or the right, your POI shifts less than it would if your hand was farther back. This is where greater control comes into play. You can be more accurate from target to target because you are allowed a greater margin of error in your movements.

 

However, with your support hand fully extended you're not going to be able to hold that position for very long. You'll get tired quickly, your muscles can start shaking and that can affect your accuracy.

 

The stance can work great in close quarters because it's accurate, fast and can give you greater muzzle control when you need to check your fire.

 

It's just another tool for the toolbox.

 

That being said, I don't really like it because it doesn't fit the airsoft impression that I am going for. But I'd be a fool to think that the best competition and military shooters are using a stance that doesn't work.

 

And on the very airsoft relevant front: I'm not sure how I like the look. It's a little funky, but I'm sure it'll grow on me.

[Chimpy]

It's just another tool for the toolbox.

 

</endthread>

[Titleist]

A few pics of my T&E sample, I'll post a review later tonight/tomorrow. I took it out to the range and ran about 200 rounds through both of my KAC guns trying to get a feel for it.

 

It's a mixed bag, so let me collect my thoughts and I'll write it all out.

 

 

 

[Whudafxup]

That last pic is awesome.

 

Hopefully i can pick one up online soon or at shot show.